Comments

Comment by maronics

Kel'thuzad 25 dropp, not unique, not mainhand. Should be awesome to have 2 and use mutilate

Comment by Corbon

The new talents in Assassination will tip the scale towards faster off-hands for Mutilate build. The current difference is minimal anyway, so if there'll be two same DPS daggers to choose from, you might be better off with the faster one.

Comment by sagetastic

The only reason I would still go for 2 slow daggers in a Mutilate build would be for the other talents that have been made easier to get to to maximize mutilate's offhand damage.

Guess we'll have to wait for some real numbers to come out and see if the higher poison damage will offset it enough for a faster OH to be worth it.

In either case, you still get the extra OH damage from the talents. =)

Comment by KidB

Actually this is a rather amazing off-hand. Recent testing proved that fast/slow is the strongest combination with instant/deadly poisons.

Comment by Raithon

Not a bad combat daggers mainhand either.

Comment by akro

This dagger together with the shadow dance talent and Ambush. Will do massive amount of damage :) + the waylay talent.
Will become a spam of ambush! :D
246 * 3.75 + 907.5 = 1830
1830 * 1.2 = 2196
2196 * 1.04 = 2283.84
So 2283 dmg with 1 ambush. And you'll have over 50% critt chance. It will slow their movement speed with 70%.
So it is Ambush -> Shadow dance -> Ambush -> vanish -> Ambush
+ all combo point u can use.

Comment by Rezzo

first of all this dagger is amazing, 2nd the fast vs slow offhand for mutilate. people say fast is better now on live 3.03 but I have a feeling at level 80 with all the differences in gear and the extra 10 talent points a 54/15/2 build for pve mutilate using offhand specialty, precision and close quarters will make slow/slow the best choice.

Comment by pedro07

This Dagger is gonna cause some serious dmg nice!

Comment by Kerak

I know there talking about Fast/Fast weapons for Mutilate however the raw DPS from this dagger may pull it ahead of Webbed Death slightly, the DPS difference is 14.7...

Even though that dagger from Heroic Magisters is 1.3 secs it was not the best dagger for Mutilate, you should take the DPS into account when you see decent margins in DPS.

Example would be that Bloodboils dagger from Black Temple was better (or still is i guess lol) then the dagger from Heroic Magisters but, magisters was faster.... Bloodboils dagger had superior raw DPS.

Comment by 22555

another contribution I think some are not grasping is that as haste becomes more relevant through gear, slower weapons will become more main-stream again for pve. as with casters, slower casts benefit most from haste; just as slower weapons for melee benefit more from haste.

another overlooked contribution is fan of knives in aoe pulls.

Comment by Coca

Running the latest spreadsheets from the elitistjerks forum this should go in off-hand with Webbed death in main hand.

If you put this MH and WebD in OH you loose 17dps.

WebD+WebD is a loose of 5,9dps.

Comment by 22555

You are correct in that effects both weapons equally; the gain on the other-hand is not equal. If you take 10% off of 1.80 sec versus 10% off of 1.40 sec, which is the bigger gain?

I'd hope you're aware of this. :)

Comment by 22555

It would appear that you're making up your own formulas.

The proper algorithm can be found via wowwiki:

Hasted Speed = Weapon Speed / ( (1+(Haste1 %)) * (1+(Haste2 %)) * (1+(((Haste Rating 1 + Haste Rating 2 + ... )/100)/15.7)) )

http://www.wowwiki.com/Haste

I think you should run the numbers with the actual formula as well as account for the specific dps/damage of daggers in question. (dual wield sinister revenge versus dual wield webbed death).

this is a light source of bench-testing numbers as well. to attempt what I stated above would imply stacking more haste and less attack power.

your current EJ going theory is to suggest that attack power is the highest AEP stat for rogues, currently, with fast weapons. my suggestion is to re-run your numbers with slow weapons and utilizing more haste.

I think the prominence of this will show even further in upcoming patches when more gear is available.

Comment by 22555

With the provided formula I gave (the correct one), a 1.80 speed weapon with a haste rating of 237 (what my rogue is at), his weapon speed is 1.68 (not including slice and dice or anything else for comparison).

If I were to equip a 1.40 speed dagger, his attack speed would change to 1.31 from the same amount of haste. The gain on the 1.80 speed dagger would be a .13 sec gain, while the 1.40 sec dagger will gain only .09 sec.

The net effect is quite obvious. Slower weapons will gain more from haste. Once you reduce attack speed near or under 1.0 sec, you realize a soft-cap in where-by the returns you get from haste are greatly diminished.

I'll also make this my final post on this subject.

Comment by andrewalanpolk

Well... it looks pretty cool!

Comment by 22555

I'm also somewhat lost as to how you believe your math works in a situation where a weapon that hits harder, is higher dps and is losing more time between swings from haste is gaining the same dps as one that hits for less, is lower dps and isn't losing as much time between swings.

The evidence is quite obvious as I posted above. The only situation whereby this even comes remotely plausible is if you compare them with gear that has little to no haste on it.

The focused attacks / poison procs argument also loses viablity as haste scales upwards (as I pointed out earlier).

The thought on utilizing slow weapons effectively in pve is to place a higher AEP on haste than you do on plain AP.

I'm making this my final post on this subject. I'm sure anyone reading this can determine what they want to do. I'm not bothered by anyone not wanting this (in fact, I'm looking forward to it), I'm just trying to help tide of rogues who I'm aware come to wow head and may be mislead.

Comment by 22555

You are correct. What you are incorrect in is the actual result.

While it's true you'll get the same % of attack speed reduction, the slower weapon will see greater gains from it.

Let me make an example to show you this, in simple terms:

If I offer you 10% of $2, or 10% of $20, which is greater?
As we scale the percentages up from each value, which will profit you more?

Haste works similarly. You'll see the same percentage of haste from any weapon, but the gain is quite different. Once you get below a 1 second attack speed, the gains from haste are very small. It will change from 10ths of seconds to 100ths of seconds. With your average gear from Naxx/obsidian sanctum, you're going to be running 400 haste even without gemming or using elixir's or foods for it.

At this point, the difference of a 1.80 speed dagger versus a 1.40 speed dagger is such that you will see 1 additional focused attacks proc every 10 seconds (.1*10=1) at the expense of 85 top-end damage and 93 low-end.

To make my point more clear, you will need approx 860 additional attack power to accomodate the same damage range as the sinister revenge. (1.4x860)/14+285=371

You will only need half of that in haste to accomodate the same speed rating as the webbed death.

We're also clearly not assuming similar AEP values for haste and AP with both builds.

In addition to this argument, the fact in which a fast weapon treats AP for white damage attacks and a slow weapon does is significantly different (it is .4 more ap efficient).

The result? Slow weapons scale better with both haste and AP. Make what of it what you will.

I can also reference any of my math, if you're looking for where any of the formulas came from. :)

Edit: I also neglected to mention that we're not dealing with 2.00 speed and 1.00 speed, quite obviously. The whole point of this discussion is which is more useful under the magnification received from current gear.

Comment by Althizor

No no no. no no no no no no.

Haste does not work better with slower weapons.

Lets say I have a 2.00 speed weapon and a 1.00 speed weapon that both do 100 dps. Basically, that means the 2.00 speed weapon deals 200 damage on average and the 1.00 speed weapon deals 100 damage.

Now I get 100% haste. Doubling my attack speed.

My first weapon is now 1.00 speed, still dealing 200 damage. It is now 200 dps.

My second weapon is now .5 speed, still dealing 100 damage. It is now 200 dps.

The gains are identical.

Lets look at procs. Lets say my proc has a 50% chance to occur.

Before haste, the slow weapon procs on average every four seconds. That's a frequency of .25 procs per second.

The fast weapon procs on average every two seconds. That's a frequency of .5 procs per second.

Lets add the 100% haste.

Now the slow weapon procs on average once every 2 seconds. That's a frequency of .5 procs per second. A gain of .25 procs per second from the unhasted value.

The fast weapon procs on average every second. Thats a frequency of one proc per second. A gain of .5 procs per second from the unhasted value.

They both doubled in frequency.

Whether that makes the net gain equal or better for the fast weapon depends on the nature of the proc.

For instant poison and focused attack procs, whose strength is completely independent of weapon speed or damage done for the attack, the fast weapon gains more, since all that matters is proc frequency.

Thus, haste in this case benefits fast weapons more. White dps is independent of weapon speed, but instant poison and focused attacks gains more from haste when using a fast weapon, let alone the fact that they proc more with a fast weapon before haste is even factored in.

As for attack power. Attack power scaling for white damage is independent of speed.

You gain 1 dps per 14 attack power. Notice that speed was never a factor there. Instant attacks scale with AP at different rates based on weapon type, and the attack in question. We are only talking about daggers and mutilate here, so instant attacks scale at the same rate with AP no matter what speed you use. With a slower weapon, the base damage for an instant attack is higher. But it is quickly overshadowed by extra procs with faster weapons.

The last source of dps that scales with AP are poisons. Deadly is independent of weapon speed (technically, it stacks faster with a faster weapon, but this effect is negligible in an extended fight). Instant poison's scaling is purely a function of proc frequency. Twice as many procs means that your total instant poison damage scales twice as quickly with AP. In addition to having twice as large of a base to work from. And as shown above, proc frequency scales better with haste if you start with a fast weapon.

As for your little comparison to money at the beginning, the correct comparison is this.

If I offer you 10% of $2 ten times a month, or 10% of $20 once a month, which is better?

They are the same, of course. Well, aside from having to come get the money ten times a month is more annoying than doing it once a month.

Your issue is that you seem to be saying that slow weapons deal more damage. This is true. Its also irrelevant. What people care about is dps, not how much damage individual attacks do.

Gains also don't diminish as attack speed falls below 1.00.

If you were to repeat the above with 400% haste, they would still do the same white dps, in that case 500 dps. The slow weapon would have a proc frequency of 1.25 procs per second and the fast one would have 2.5 procs per second. In terms of proc frequency, the difference gets larger as you get more haste, not smaller.

Now, all of the above is under the assumption that both weapons in question are of identical quality, the only difference being speed. This dagger is higher quality than any fast dagger. This creates a sort of minimum stat value needed so that the extra scaling from a fast weapon actually results in enough extra damage to overcome the larger base with the slow weapon.

On the main hand, this is trivial.

On the off hand, where there is no extra instant poison scaling since deadly is used, current stat levels aren't high enough to make the lower quality fast weapon overtake this higher quality slow weapon. The scales may tip eventually, but by then there would be a whole new set of weapons to compare.

Comment by 22555

Your understanding of haste is incorrect.

There is no such thing at the moment as 100% haste.

At well over 500 haste, you're still staring at just over 15% haste. If we were to scale up to 100% haste however, your figures would look something akin to this: 1.8 / ( (1+(100/100)) * (1+(0/100)) * (1+((0/100)/32.79)) )

and before snd or icy talons, we're looking at a .9 attack speed.

for a 1.40 speed weapon, we're looking at:
1.8 / ( (1+(100/100)) * (1+(0/100)) * (1+((0/100)/32.79)) )

a .7 attack speed.

The DPS gain from haste is not a static one; the increase in attack speed, however is.

If we take basic raid buffs and apply it to this 100% haste figure, it will look something like this:
.6 weapon speed for the 1.80 dagger, and .47 for the 1.40 speed dagger. The massive difference of 4/10ths a second attack speed has now been reduced to 1/13ths of a second difference in attack speed via the function of haste.

Well before this is where you'll notice that haste begins to hit a soft-cap area whereby gains come very slowly.

The factor of normalized weapon speed attacks (1.7 was the number you were looking for for the speed-cap on daggers) which still actually benefits mutilate. The change was designed to benefit the weapon with higher damage range on instant attacks and not that which had a slower speed (this was an issue pre-bc with barman's shanker outperforming perdition's blade).

It still will require the user utilizing webbed death to have 860 more attack power than what's found on the user using 2x sinister revenge to accomplish the same mutilate damage.

The argument isn't in regards to what is better: hitting slower or hitting faster. It's about the method of getting there. I'll review the facts again:

Slow/Slow gains .4% more AP on white attacks than fast/fast
Slow/Slow logorithmically has a higher net gain from haste than fast/fast.
Slow/Slow will do more damage than fast/fast with mutilate (including the 1.7 speedcap) based on its inherent higher damage range.

The current popular misconception is that fast/fast with AP valued highest will net the highest dps through increased poison damage. (.34% of max ap to poison damage)
However, utilizing haste, you will achieve more poison procs than with utilizing AP, and you can utilize less AP for white damage attacks.

If your banter involves suggesting "NOAI! hittng fstr iz bttr!" then you're clearly not reading the concept being suggested, as I'm clearly in agreement with that. We all want to hit faster and hit hard. The debate is based around what will get you there most efficiently.

Edit: punctuation.

Comment by Althizor

You calculate swing speed but you never calculate dps. The number people actually care about.

100% haste doubles your white dps, no matter what you started with. Starting speed is absolutely irrelevant in this case.

To reiterate. If I have x% haste, I increase my white DPS by x%. My starting speed was never a factor in this calculation.

Trying to include raid haste buffs and actual in game haste numbers does nothing but obfuscate the issue by making the math harder to work with.

Try the math with simple numbers like I did above. You'll see white dps scales at the same rate with haste regardless of initial swing speed. Proc rates scales better if you started with a faster weapon. And since the procs in question are the same strength no matter the attack behind it, higher frequency means you get more out of those abilities.

To reiterate. If I have x% haste, I increase my proc frequency by x%. Faster weapons have a larger base proc frequency, thus experience a larger gain. If the proc's effect is independent of damage done for the attack, this means that the fast weapon scales better with haste in regards to the proc.

All daggers scale equally with regard to AP for instant attacks. Slow weapons have a bigger base. The slow weapon wins here.

Thus, the slow weapon has a non-scaling advantage, bigger mutilates. It'll add a certain amount of dps that doesn't really scale with gear at all over the fast weapon.

The fast weapon has a scaling advantage in additional instant poison and focused attacks procs. Thus, given ANY two fast and slow weapons, given some level of stats, the fast weapon would overtake the slow one. Yes, even comparing a faster level 1 dagger to this one, eventually the level 1 dagger would become the better weapon if you had totally silly stats that will never exist in game.

The level of stats depends on which hand the weapon is in and the weapons in question.

All rogues will have the stats needed for Webbed Death to beat this one in the main hand.

They will not have it for it to beat this one in the off hand.

This is mathematical fact.

Comment by 22555

Unlike haste, dps is the linear result of weapon speed. If you directly half your weapon speed (read: speed, not haste), you double your DPS.

As I've said multiple times, haste is not linear. A haste percentage increase is a percentage based reduction of your current weapon speed, not your DPS linearly.

Your fantasizing over non-applicable numbers and claiming "it's complicated" is not relevant to this conversation. You assumed 100% haste (not even possible) and I showed you how it functions. I'll stop responding until a valid point is made after this.

Comment by 22555

Damage = Base Weapon Damage + (Multiplier × Attack Power ÷ 14)

I think this is the formula you intended to use, or rather, I hope it was.

The formula above will show the sinister revenge as having nearly an 860 attack power gain (based on damage range) over the webbed death. This does not inherently make it greater in terms of DPS as many factors enter the equation here.

The thought process that lends you to believe that an inifinite amount of swings (or anywhere remotely close to is possible through current gearing) is flawed.

Assuming 1000 haste rating, you will stilll only be able to at a minimum reduce your weapon speed (assuming a 1.4 speed weapon base) to a hair above .7 attacks a second.

The method in which speed rating is calculated is in seconds (a 1.80 speed weapon will strike every 1.80 seconds, a 2 speed weapon will strike every 2 seconds, etc)

Definition of which is:

Attack speed is a game term used to describe the delay between attacks, measured in seconds; the reciprocal of the actual rate of attacks. Essentially, it can be considered the "cooldown" between attacks by the given weapon. It is determined by the weapon you wield and (if applicable) enchantments on said weapon.

Comment by Althizor

I used the correct formula. I used the formula for DPS, not damage.

Say it with me, damage per second. The number people actually care about in raids, not how big the damage numbers are.

Of course the slow weapon will gain more damage with AP. What it doesn't gain more of is dps.

Divide your formula by swing time. Base damage becomes base weapon dps. The multiplier is your swing timer, thus it is canceled.

DPS = base dps + (AP/14)

Lets try this again. Please refute this with actual math. Once again, I will use simple numbers. This will apply with any set of actual in game numbers, but, those numbers are more complicated to use and these illustrate the point just fine.

I have two weapons. One has a 2.00 speed and one has a 1.00 speed. Base dps is the same. I have a proc that has a 50% chance to occur. Basically, on average I get a proc every other swing.

So, on average, I get a proc every 4 seconds with the slow weapon and every two seconds with the fast one. A proc frequency of .25 and .5 procs per second, respectively.

I get 100% haste. This halves the swing timer and doubles your attack rate. I now have a 1.00 speed weapon and a .5 speed weapon. White dps doubled in both cases, because I'm hitting for the same damage but doing it twice as often. They started with the same dps so they have the same dps after haste.

I now proc on average every 2 seconds with the slow weapon, and every second with the fast weapon.

Proc frequency thus doubles, to .5 and 1 proc per second, respectively.

However, the gap in proc frequency grew from .25 procs per second to .5 procs per second when haste was added.

Thus, the fast weapon benefited from haste more, assuming a damage independent proc like instant poison or focused attacks.

Please point out a flaw in the math above. It is the only valid argument you can make at this point. And what I mean is, take a 2.00 speed weapon, and a 1.00 speed weapon, and 100% haste, and come to a different conclusion with regards to white dps and proc frequency, showing steps along the way.

What this sets up is a SCALING advantage of fast over slow. Slow has a static benefit to mutilate damage. And in this case, a static benefit in that the weapon is higher quality. Thus, it requires some level of gear for a fast weapon to overcome this dagger. Indeed, even a level 1, 1.79 speed dagger would overcome this one if you had silly stats that would never exist in game. On the order of eleventy billion attack power. Probably less than that, and probably also a real number, but I like saying eleventy billion.

Webbed death does this in the main hand easily. The gear does not exist for this to occur in the offhand. This is mathematical fact.

Comment by 22555

Lets break this down (since we've now shifted to this instead of purely debating the functions of haste)

Damage = Base Weapon Damage + (Multiplier × Attack Power ÷ 14)

I have already outlined what weapon speed is, since you've debated that.

Lets actually apply the formula to both weapons:

(I'll precursor that I we could use the following mathematical functions for the bottom end of each weapon and the top end to determine a more specific damage range for said user and the fact that I'm assuming we're using only 1 weapon, in the main hand. Complications such as offhand penalization and so forth are just going to make this a lot more complex than it needs to be)

I'll take the average of both weapon's damage to determine the average damage with each strike as follows:

Sinister Revenge:
(246+370)/2= 308

Webbed Death:
(153+285)/2= 219

Lets now apply the formula to determine a baseline damage range for white attacks (I'll get into instant attacks in a moment here) I'll use an average of 3000 AP, as I know this is under what I'm running and what I'm guessing a "decently well geared" rogue for wrath is running, excluding raid buffs.

(1.8*3000/14)+308= 693 Average

(1.4*3000/14)+219 = 519 Average

Now if we sample the swing timer with the average damage range, we can conclude a tentative average DPS.

I'll use a sample fight time of 1 minute just for this conversation's sake (we can scale it further, if you wish).

Theoretical swings during the duration of the fight (white damage) which is:

60/1.8 = 33.33

60/1.4 = 42.85

Now the formula for white DPS seems pretty obvious:
Sample Damage = Swings x Average Damage

or more specifically, we're graphing a simulated fight which infers it's swing time x damage

The math effectively will show:

33.33*693 = 23097.69 Damage done over the 1 minute fight duration.

42.85*519 = 22239.15 Damage done over the 1 minute fight duration.

If you wanted to determine DPS from this, you would just divide the number determined above by 60 and it would look more akin to this:

Sinister Revenge 384.96 DPS

Webbed Death: 370.65 DPS

Here's I'm sure where you're reading and saying "no fair!" and I agree. We haven't looked at FA procs, IP damage or anything of the sort. This situation is A LOT more complex than I've yet gone into.

We haven't applied haste, we haven't applied FA procs, not even mutilate damage nor consequential envenoms.

So lets follow suit with this discussion and apply similar haste to each and use the aforementioned 400 haste which I think anyone should be able to achieve with respectable gear.

1.8 / ( (1+(0/100)) * (1+(0/100)) * (1+((400/100)/32.79)) ) = 1.6 (Sinister Revenge)

1.4 / ( (1+(0/100)) * (1+(0/100)) * (1+((400/100)/32.79)) ) = 1.25 (Webbed Death)

Please bare in mind, we could also draw the conclusion based on stat values on each weapon in that the Sinister revenge has an additional inherent 24 haste which would bring its base attack speed down from 1.8 to 1.79 but for the purposes of a direct comparison we'll forgo the statistical differences and just assume weapon speed as well as damage range.)

Now lets run the same mathematical algorithms to determine our new DPS and 1 minute fight sample average damage:

(1.6*3000/14)+308= 650.85 Average

(1.25*3000/14)+219= 486.85 Average

Now once again, we'll create a sample fight of 1 minute:

60/1.6 = 37.5 Swings per minute

60/1.25 = 48 Swings per minute

And now the damage total of each fight:

650.85*37.5= 24406.87

486.85*48= 23368.8

DPS over the duration of the fight:

24406.87/60= 406.78 DPS (Sinister Revenge)

23368/60= 389.46 DPS (Webbed Death)

I think now is a good time for white damage comparison:

406.78-384.9 = 21.88 DPS gained through 400 haste.

389.46-370.65= 18.81 DPS gained through 400 haste.

What the truth to this is, is that the Sinister Revenge will always provide higher white DPS than the webbed death through AP efficiency until the swing-timer differential is reduced below .1 (the AP to damage conversion rate from IP)

Bare in mind that I did not include SND to these figures either.

If we want to entertain the thought of instant attacks leaning toward the webbed death (which is incorrect) I can display more math to show the precise outcome.

If we also would like to determine IP procs in terms of swing timers of each under the effects of haste, this would be very easily displayed, and I'd be more than willing to explain how this will also benefit the Sinister Revenge when haste is applied.

Comment by 22555

Ok, lets ramp up the AP then since you're assuming the webbed death will scale better with AP.

Sinister Revenge: 308

Webbed Death: 219

Damage = Base Weapon Damage + (Multiplier × Attack Power ÷ 14)

Now lets assume we're raid buffed and using 3500 AP and still under the same effective haste (400).

(1.6x3500/14)+308= 708 (Sinister Revenge)

(1.25x3500/14)+219= 531.5 (Webbed Death)

Now to sample the duration of a fight and determine swing counts for each weapon:

60/1.6= 37.5

60/1.25= 48

Now to sample damage for a 1 minute in duration fight:

37.5 * 708= 26550

48 * 531.5= 25512

Now to determine DPS

26550/60= 442.5

25512/60= 425.2

As you can see, the Sinister Revenge is ahead by 17.3 DPS up from the previous figure with 3000AP as the sample which showed the Sinister Revenge ahead by 3.07 DPS

You've now seen how the white damage of each weapon scales from haste as I showed comparison with each weapon unhasted, 400 haste applied, 3000AP, then 3500AP.

Do you have any other false arguments to make?

I can sample poison damages through averaging poison procs across the board and determining a set AP number to bonus the poisons from.

As I said previously, to acquire the extra damage-range that the Sinister Revenge has, you willl need to compensate nearly 860AP provided no additional is given to the Sinister Revenge. This will of course make it much quicker of a weapon than the Sinister Revenge, but as both haste an AP scale, the clear victor is the Sinister Revenge.

As you scale haste, it's true the webbed death will always have more poison procs and will always have more FA procs. This is not a subject open for debate. The question is how much more and is it worth the effectiveness of haste and AP between the two weapons.

As I stated before, the slower weapon will always be reduced by more actual time when haste is applied. Similarly, it will always gain more DPS when AP is applied. You can see it in the formula.

If we view instant attacks, you'll use the identical damage range for each weapon as an average, but instead of using 1.6/1.25 for hasted figures, we'll use 1.7 for both meaning the weapon with the most top-end has the advantage.

As I said before, if you'd like me to delve into poison procs, I'd be more than glad to. :)

Comment by Althizor

You misread what I said, and misconstruing what you yourself said.

I said that the difference in dps gain after haste is the same regardless of AP.

The dps difference before stats is 14.7.

The dps difference after AP is 14.7

The dps difference after AP and haste was 17.3.

Thus, the difference in dps gain with haste is still about 3, as it was with the lower AP number.

The advantage is non-scaling with AP. The advantage scales VERY slowly with haste. It took 400 haste rating to increase the gap by 3 dps. It is, thus, almost static.

This is from your first calculation, at lower AP

24406.87/60= 406.78 DPS (Sinister Revenge)

23368/60= 389.46 DPS (Webbed Death)

That looks like a dps advantage of about 17.3 to me. The same as it was here.

You can see this more clearly from the formula. Using the formula for dps, because its much simpler. It makes more sense than starting with damage, then going to dps when you can just start with dps and stay with dps

DPS = Haste*(base dps + (AP/14))

Haste being 1 + whatever amount you increase attacks by. For example, with 50% haste Haste would be 1.5, with 20% haste it'd be 1.2

Increasing base dps by 14.7 as sinister revenge does gives you a dps advantage of Haste*14.7

This roughly agrees with your calculation. Probably just a difference caused by rounding since your calculation had many more steps.

The main point is, this difference in white dps has NOTHING to do with attack power. You could go to a billion attack power, and the difference in white dps after 400 haste would still be roughly 17.

As for proc frequency. You refuse to see that proc frequency increases at the same rate as you gain haste. Not slower.

If 100% haste increases proc frequency by 1, 200% will increase it by 2, 300% will increase it by 3, and so on.

The gains in proc frequency are linear with haste. The slope of this linear relationship depends on base weapon speed. Faster weapons have a higher slope, and a higher intercept.

Thus, the gap in proc frequency grows with haste between a slow and fast weapon. This is mathematical fact, if you wish to disprove it, calculate proc frequencies with two different speed weapons at different levels of haste and show that the gap decreases.

But, I'll do it for you, with simple numbers. I've done this twice before, but it hasn't sunk in.

I have a 2.00 speed weapon and a 1.00 speed weapon. I have a proc that occurs 50% of the time. Thus, my average proc rate will be once in the period of two swings.

The proc frequency for the 2.00 speed weapon is 1/4 = .25 procs per second.

For the 1.00 weapon its 1/2 = .5 procs per second.

The fast weapon has a proc frequency advantage of .25 procs per second.

I get 100% haste.

I now have a 1.00 and a .5 speed weapon.

For the slow weapon, the proc frequency is 1/2 = .5 procs per second.

The fast weapon is 1/1 = 1 proc per second.

The proc advantage for the fast weapon is now .5 procs per second. The advantage doubled with 100% haste.

In fact, the equation for the proc advantage is thus. proc difference = Haste * base proc difference. Haste being the same entity as before, 2 with 100% haste.

But, the value of these extra procs scales with attack power, as the damage caused by energy and instant poison procs scales with AP.

As I showed before, the advantage in white damage for slow weapons does NOT scale with AP.

The advantage in mutilate damage does not scale with AP either. Damage is base damage + normalization factor * AP/14. An increase in base damage will not scale with AP.

Thus, as I've said before, Sinister Revenge has an almost static dps advantage, while fast weapons have a scaling advantage.

Thus, it requires some level of stats for Webbed Death to overtake Sinister Revenge. This always happens in the main hand, and never happens in the off hand.

You are right that the Sinister Revenge has an effective extra AP by being higher dps, and slower. Thats what gives it its static advantage.

What a faster weapon does is give you better AP scaling. Thus, at some point, this extra AP scaling will account for more effective AP than the static bonus to effective AP that a slow weapon has.

Please, please, please. If you'd like to debate this further, start by disproving what I've said about proc frequency. You always calculate weapon speed but you never take the last step to find the important numbers. What matters is proc frequency. Not what the speed difference was after haste.

Then show that the white dps difference grows at higher attack power and static haste. Which would be contradictory, since you've already done it at 3000 and 3500 attack power, and the difference was still about 17.3 after 400 haste in both cases. To say otherwise is to contradict your own numbers.

We've probably cluttered this page enough though. If you are so certain of your convictions though, you should go try them at Elitist Jerks. I'm sure they'd like to find out their spreadsheets and calculations are wrong. I'm being semi-sarcastic here. They would love to be corrected if they are wrong, but they know they aren't and would perhaps find a better way to show you the flaw in your reasoning than I have.

Comment by 233839

Tanking weapon? :)

Comment by Traveltrump

i dont really mind wot hand it goes in cos i just go on the DPS counter. I do this so i get the highest dps poss. (m a Heavy DPS DK)

Comment by 287208

In my opinion, pve and pvp are unbalanced. This dagger provides tons of more damage and takes almost no effort to get. The Deadly Gladiator Shanker takes far more time to get due to the weeks they have to wait. The lucky few pve'ers that get this weapon will be OP in arena's. It's the first week of arena and i've gone up against people with this, i just hate that i haven't even recieved points for the FIRST week of arena and there are people that already have a weapon much better than the arena dagger; which takes weeks to get.

And by saying that it requiers no effort to get, i mean that 25 man heroic naxx is *pug*able, and you can be lucky enough to get it in just one night.

Comment by 233885

Hunter weapon. That is all

Comment by ProUnit

Let me know if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a higher weapon damage scale better with AP? If so, would timing an AP on use trinket with a 100 energy Overkill make this weapon a better main hand than Webbed Death?

Webbed Death will proc deadly poison more then it needs to be, Sinister Revenge has a sufficient speed to stack to 5 before an envenom will be used. The only advantage that I see Webbed Death having are Focused Attack procs.

Do the focused attack procs give a rogue more dps then the 100 energy AP trinket Overkill?

Comment by 51953

OK, lots of text and theorycrafting being layed down here, and some of it is outdated.

Here's the TLDR version.

As of this post date, a mut rogue wants this in the MH, the speed is offset by the damage/stats. For OH, Webbed Death is the optimum choice. That is the best you can get with the gear available at that point.
2x Webbed is great and gear will play a factor when you're dealing with caps and stacking stats so ideally you will want those as well to enable you to switch back and forth with gear.

Comment by 32973

On my last fight.. Melee DPS Cloak + Rogue T7.5 Helm Token + This Dagger dropped..

and I have DKP to win either 2 of them..

as a combat rogue, I picked Cloak + Token.. well

Comment by 156857

As of 3.0.8, when they fix double OH poison proccing, this is still better in the OH than dual Webbed Death, but not by much.
If you can get 2x Webbed Death, it's just as good as Webbed Death/Sinister Revenge.

Comment by 159525

I believe the issue people were having regarding haste increasing the effect of a slower weapon more is that since you're hitting more often with a slower, harder hitting weapon, the amount of damage that gets modified on say crits for example is increased. It's the same characteristic that hunters had before and still do now regarding their ranged weaponry- a slower, heavier hitting weapon is generally going to do more damage and therefore DPS due to instant attacks basing off of weapon damage and AP. For rogues I can't qualify anything either way, but I know for hunters higher min/max and slower speeds is the way to go still.

Comment by 307442

Sinister Revenge
Binds when picked up
One-Hand Dagger
246 - 370 Damage Speed 1.80
(171.1 damage per second)
+36 Agility
+42 Stamina
Durability 75 / 75
Requires Level 80
Increases attack power by 1628 in Cat, Bear, Dire Bear and Moonkin forms only.
Equip: Improves hit rating by 37 (1.13% @ L80).
Equip: Improves haste rating by 24 (0.73% @ L80).
Equip: Increases attack power by 98.

stats as a driuds sees it after 3.0.8

Comment by plainsane

apparently some rogues do have the necessary stats for Sinister Revenge to be better than Webbed Death for Mainhand, i guess since deadly poison doesnt benefit as much from increased procrate, opposed to instant poison.

And yes i carefully checked my spreadsheet for mistakes from my part.

http://img407.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mhsrohwddpssd4.jpg
http://img382.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dwwebbeddeathdpsak5.jpg

Comment by Backmask

"Increases attack power by 1625 in Cat, Bear, Dire Bear, and Moonkin forms only."

lol

Comment by Arthale

There are more things going for a faster weapon than focused attacks. Poison procs are also a big portion of damage for rogues.

Before the patch, Mutilate had a glitch allowing 2 chances for poisons to be proc'd on the off-hand weapon. Since this has been fixed, it is difficult to say whether of not two fast daggers are the superior combination.

I ran a few spreadsheets before this (and yes...we all know to take their output with a grain of salt) but it shows Sinister Revenge to be the superior off hand when compared to Webbed Death. Spreadsheets reading an addition 26.34 DPS or so.

Cheers

Comment by wowwern

This dagger is awesome as mutilate rogue, it is not unique and not Main hand so dual-wielding this one will make u like 4k MH dagger 3.5k Off H dagger ! thats 7.5k together with mutilate.

Comment by 261707

Whoever commented that enhancement can use this in the offhand is wrong, just wrong. Yes the spellpower bonus to flametongue does not depend on weapon speed, however in order for the damage lost to stormstrike and lava lash to be made up for you would need to have caster gear equipped. I've run the sim, time and again with higher ap and the associated higher spellpower (+30% of ap) and it will not catch up to most slow ilvl 200 offhands, and certainly not angry dread. Rogue only weapon I'm afraid, I don't anticipate many hunters using dkp on this when journey's end, boh, and black ice are in game.

Comment by 99851

Everyone is debating whether or not this would be a good PvE dagger. I haven't seen anyone say anything about how devestating wielding 2 of these in PvP would be. I'm pretty sure I could get a 10k mutilate crit with 2 of these bad boys :)

EDIT: Grammar

Comment by 156857

(I know it's depending on gear, but here some practical info on performance)

Ok, I won this yesterday, and after some test stabbing and messing with spreadsheets, I conclude:

-In theory, and ingame this dagger has a slight edge to another Webbed Death in the OH.
-The slower stacking of Deadly Poison can be frustrating, and sometimes I got to use Shiv itchy because my stack almost fell off. And it hurts all the more cause shivving costs alot of energy with this stabber.
-Rotations get quite a bit harder, the slower energy feed is noticeable.

All in all, worth the DKP. Also, on AoE packs (FoK) and in PvP this is quite the dagger.

Comment by Butte

Everybody talks about haste and PvE here, but surely 2 of these will be the best combo in PvP?

Comment by 241534

Hey I was wondering whether it would be good to dual wield these with berserking and instant/deady on the weapons.
I'm a mutilate spec and this is my favourite dagger in the game, and I'm more of a casual player, so I go for stuff that looks good usually over stuff that is a bit better. Plus the 171.1 dps is a nice touch, and I need all the hit rating I can get, so dual wielding would get me 74 hit rating.

Thanks, reply soon.

P.S. Whats better Berserking or Mongoose.

Thank you

Comment by Kanoi

Though somewhat difficult to notice, the runes on this weapon sheen and glow very faintly, traveling through the blade from hilt to tip. Very subtle, but nifty nonetheless.

Comment by abrown

ok, so tons of theroycrafting here, but hows the drop rate for all of those who have it/ are trying to get it? how many times average do you end having to run it to get it?

Comment by 156857

Update: In 3.0.9, wich should be released by Blizzard this week, Dual Webbed Death will trump this again, because the added damage for Mutilate from Poisons is going to be nerfed. Using this as a Slow OH, a higher percent of your damage will be from Mutilate, so the nerf's going to widen the gap between Fast/Fast and Fast/Slow even more.

Comment by 321254

This dagger is very nice for ench shammans (offhand). May be the best.

Comment by Prada

Two hunters rolled along with me today on SV. Both of them beat me with my mere 15/100 roll. One of them rolled because he was &*!@ed off that I got Bandit's Insignia from Saph and the other actually wanted it. The latter hunter claimed that SV would have been an upgrade for him although he had not only Black Ice, but also Calamity's Strike and Hand of Nerub.

Oh, the RL gave it to me in the end. The entire raid was also on the rogues side; having a hunter taking this from a rogue would be the near equivalent of a rogue taking Envoy of Mortality from a hunter.

Comment by Shubi

=======================================================================================
. Calamity's Grasp in MH + Sinister Revenge in OH with Close Quarters Combat = AWESOME DMG for Combat Rogue .
=======================================================================================

BTW I'm Rogue, and this is my dream :p

Comment by 324291

Arguably a good OH weapon for a shaman the speed of the weapon would increase the proc rate of Maelstrom.

Comment by Kyeld

this weapon will be getting a major, major boost in patch 3.1 -- poisons (at least instant poison) are being changed to a proc per minute change instead of a flat % on hit, so slower weapons won't do inherently less poison damage and will in fact have a higher chance to proc poisons on instant attacks while also making your mutilates hit harder.

I'd recommend every rogue put this on their shopping list of things to pick up between now and 3.1 if they plan on staying with mutilate.

Comment by 329677

I have a BE Mut Rogue - and i want some help i recently attained two of these and i want to know what is the best enchants for them how i should arrange my stats for the best overall dps output having one both in MH and OF - i was planning on enchanting them both with Zerker but reading all of this...kind of makes me want to wait till webbed death drops -

Any help is appreciated TYVM ^.^

Comment by 332654

What Are Webbed Death and Sinister Revenge worth in AH ?

Comment by 337387

how about puting this as an OH (Calamity's Grasp MH) while combat spec (15/51/5) and stack hit over 600 ?

i think the raw dps woud be nice ,what do you think ?

->after 2 raids i can say its a bad idea . 1,4 OH is way better

Comment by 42868

I think the real question here is WHO THE HELL DISENCHANTS SINISTER REVENGE

Comment by 250654

One thing no1 has mentioned is that its quite a good off hand for HaT / hemo specs will calamity's grasp main hand.

Comment by 113855

As of 3.1, it looks like this will become the best rogue MH available from pre-Ulduar content, since Instant and Wound poison are being moved to PPM instead of a flat %chance to proc.

Comment by Minosette

With the changes to instant poison and wound poison with 3.1 (They both go off at different rates depending on weapon speed) wouldn't it mean that slow daggers are now the way to go with mutilate again? I would've thought that was the case since they're based on weapon speed now.

Comment by phillymike101

Best MH pre-Ulduar now. (3.1)

Comment by 311438

Definitely the best pre-Ulduar MH for mut. Only thing I see better in MH thats available in the spreadsheets is Daschal's Bite. ( Badass dagger btw :p) Unless Yog drops something better that hasnt been seen yet.( Crosses fingers)

Comment by 355917

Rogue only weapon I'm afraid, I don't anticipate many hunters using dkp on this when journey's end, boh, and black ice are in game.

I wouldn't call this a "rogue only" weapon. Enchanting it with Accuracy makes it a VERY useful weapon to dual wield for hunters as it contains every single stat they need. While, as a hunter, I would not roll on it if I already had Black Ice, I also wouldn't roll on Black Ice if I already had 2 of these. Depending on the server, you may also find that these are easier to obtain than Black Ice since 25-man Naxx is on farm for many guilds, but few guilds run 10-man EoE regularly.

Comment by 355917

Oh, the RL gave it to me in the end. The entire raid was also on the rogues side; having a hunter taking this from a rogue would be the near equivalent of a rogue taking Envoy of Mortality from a hunter.

That would entirely depend on what gear the hunter had already. If they had Black Ice, Journey's End, or Betrayer of Humanity, then rolling on this item is kind of pointless (it'd be a lateral move, not an upgrade). If they had anything else, this item is a great item (especially dual wielding) for hunters. My hunter has Hailstorm and Torment of the Banished equipped at the moment, so if I was in your raid, I would have been rolling on it as well (as it would be a pretty large upgrade of my off-hand weapon).

Comment by 193445

This talk is getting ridiculous.

Slow weapon mainhand, fast weapon offhand.
The reasons are obvious.

Faster Weapons
-Net increase in Poison procs.
-Net increase in white/poison DPS.

While both true, the fact of the matter is that rogue combat skills do not scale with haste. Haste has no effect on the GCD of melee abilities.

As hard as Blizzard is trying to 'normalize' melee abilities, the damage increase from Mutilate overshadows the increase from white/poison dps with both builds due to a higher top end damage.

Fast/Fast is a terrible option for any class, and most likely always will be. The 2 energy gained from Focused Attacks is negligable in almost any situation from a .2% speed increase.

Comment by 660765

Hello. I hasnt playing WoW for some time. It has been some change to applying Instant Poison ? It is no longer true that slow weapon = more Instant Poison applies ?

Comment by Allakhazam

i like...

Comment by biruta

I have Sinister Revenge and Librarian's Paper Cutter but last night with just me as rogue on Naxx 10 I got another Sinister Revenge.
Should I keep Revenge + Librarian's Paper Cutter combo or use two Sinister Revenge?

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Sinister Revenge

Item Level 226
Binds when picked up

One-Hand	Dagger

246 - 370 Damage	Speed 1.80

(171.11 damage per second)
+36 Agility
+87 Stamina
Durability 75 / 75

Requires Level 80
Equip: Improves hit rating by 37.
Equip: Improves haste rating by 24.

Sell Price: 21 19 73

Dropped by: Kel'Thuzad

Drop Chance: 11.81%

Sinister Revenge

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