This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
Beta
Prot DPS/PVP - Protribution Guide - Updated 3.3!
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
150363
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
OOM problems were less of an issue in 3.1, when we'd take SoB damage which would force us to be healed. In 3.2, it's mostly a question of what glyphs you choose - Glyph of Shield of Righteousness is now pretty much mandatory.
Did you find that the low DPS was caused by running out of mana, or was it an additional problem? If you hadn't run out, would you have had higher DPS on other fights?
Pallies generally are better at some, and not others. Maybe the same principle applies.
Post by
436820
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
svirve
SoV DPS Formula.
=(SoVhit/WPSPD)+(SoVhit/(HotRCD/HotRUptime))+(SoVhit/(CSCD/CSUptime))+(SoVhit/(DSCD/DSUptime))
Hit, crit, expertise is already added to SoVhit.
Looks ok?
Note: This is only the dps from the 33% added holy damage from white swings and HotR, CS and DS the ticks are seperate.
Just realised this doesnt work so well with a uptime of 0% on a related ability.
Post by
Squishalot
Uptime is a %, right? Should be
((SoVhit/HotRCD)*HotRUptime)
Same effect, but it actually works when HotRUptime is 0%, because you're not dividing by zero. Fiddling with brackets ;p
Post by
svirve
Ah right you are. Was just something i put together before school so didn't really think it through :)
Will update it and perhaps have time for some more before i'm off.
Edit:
Added the following glyphs: Avenger's Shield, Consecration, Exorcism, Judgement and Seal of Vengeance.
Since we're not assuming any mana consumption yet i only found these glyphs to be relevant.
Post by
Divisor
I've read about all the posts, and I must say it's a nice idea.
It's not a build for a hardcore raider, because it does have a few flaws at times, depending on the fight and might affect your overall contribution to the fight. But for some fun runs ("I know I may look like a tank, but believe me, I'm totally not"), it's a very viable change in the scenery.
However, I need to know a few things.
- How is the overall mana use of this build ? With the 3.2 changes, and the with SoB/SotM being removed along with their glyph, isn't this going to lead to OOM issues ?
- I've read about the gear that should be used, but I didn't find a straight answer. Prot gear with high BV, ret gear (no ArP as it sucks badly for Pallies) or PVP Holy gear (loads of stamina + spellpower, bye bye mana issues) ? Since all of the abilities seem to scale better with spellpower, I presume that PVP Holy gear would totally rock. Don't having any hard evidence to prove this, just pulled this out of my ass. If I am wrong, please enlighten me.
- Would this spec be viable for heroics and such ? My paladin has only the rank of Alt, and I play it rarely. But since it's in the same guild as my main, and the guild is quite popular on my realm, it would be quite nasty to try a heroic and fail miserably in it. Training dummy results almost never match the performance of heroics or raids.
I apologize if I offended anyone with my noobishness in pally stuff, but I am willing to learn. Any answers and clarifications would be great.
Post by
Synectics
If your maths are ever so awesome and detailed, you'd surely know at which point prot dps exceeds ret dps thanks to "better" scaling.
However, you can't, at all, even though you've got all the numbers you need to prove it in theory. (or at least, so you claim)
Oh FFS, GTFO.
"omg u math nerds cant figure it out? olol what noobs" is exactly how I read that.
Go figure it out for yourself. Don't want to? Then quit QQing because THEY ARE PUTTING SO MUCH GODDAMN TIME AND EFFORT INTO FIGURING IT OUT FOR THE REST OF US.
If you don't support Protribution, you shouldn't be here. This thread is not for you. GTFO.
EDIT (because I hadn't trolled enough):
All you say is "we're guessing it'll be high end ulduar gear/crusader coliseum gear"
now you're saying it might as well take an infinity for prot to scale better than ret, well if it takes an infinity , it OBVIOUSLY does not scale better, or it just won't ever be reached, so your scaling argument, pretty much your only argument, is void.
Let us know EXACTLY what numbers will be on the next set of gear released, and I'm sure we'll get back to you by the morning as to if that point has been reached yet.
They say "at some point" because who the hell knows what sort of numbers will be on the next set of gear? But the math is there, and they've provided it -- Prot abilities scale better to Strength, and therefore, Prot will surpass Ret as far as using Strength is concerned. What's so hard to understand here? If you can't get that through your head, then ignore what I said about "figure it out yourself." Clearly, you have no chance of doing so.
And if you're calling me a liar again, or that I should read this entire topic (which I won't do, I don't believe in this crap),
I LOL'd. So, they've offered proof, but you refuse to go read it?
No, seriously. GTFO.
Post by
DrvUMad
Where is this spreadsheet at? Is it published somewhere I can download it or are you 2 emailing it back and forth?
I'd like to get a copy of it and see at what point Prot passes Ret in DPS if possible.
Post by
svirve
So far we've used a filehost to send it back and forth between me and squishy(and whoever wanted it really). It's far from accurate and definately not updated to 3.2. I'm working on getting it there though as you can see but it's going to be a little while.
Post by
DrvUMad
Lemme know when I can get my hands on it!
Post by
379126
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
Yep, Libram of Obstruction should be there now. In any event, Libram of the Sacred Shield has been nerfed essentially in 3.2, due to the doubling of LoO uptime to 10 seconds, meaning that you basically have 100% up time on the BV effect. At least before, LotSS was better for Tankadins who would get extra BV due to it being 100% uptime, and LoO only being 55% uptime.
I haven't gotten around to changing it, since a lot of the work we've done is for v3.1. I'll put a disclaimer on the front page to say that this is 3.1 only, and that we're working out whether it's still viable in 3.2 with the changes to ShoR and the like.
@ Divisor:
Wear Holy gear, and you turn into a Prot-healer. You wouldn't do enough DPS. Ret gear for PvE, Prot block set for PvP until you hit the BV cap for ShoR, then switch to Ret gear for the rest of your equipment for higher Str and resilience, or more block gear for survivability.
A cookie cutter tankadin spec will allow you to get at least 80% of what you're getting in your Ret gear. So if you're doing 3k DPS, then a basic Prot spec will get you 2.4k DPS pretty easily, and probably more. A properly spec'd Protribution spec should get you about 2.5-2.7k based on what people have anecdotally said.
You can run heroics with it, but it won't be as effective, since your abilities will scale well with raid buffs, and you won't be able to provide Swift and Sanctified Retribution auras. But if they don't mind you being just another DPS with blessings, then go for it - you're not going to embarass yourself unless you can't do a prot rotation.
Post by
65116
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
Edit: Might as well skip straight to the 5th point. You've harped on about not including the Vengeance talent, well, none of the math on the early pages included ability uptime on the Ret side of the equation. That's the primary breaking-down factor for all the early math. If you'd like to redo it factoring it in (3.2 or otherwise), that'll save me time in doing so. I'll get around to it eventually.
Actually, the changes to Seal of Vengeance confound it all.
Firstly - having only 33% (or 37.95%) weapon damage scaling reduces the benefit of the weapon procs, reducing Ret's big benefit (they get much more benefit from MW-based seal procs).
Secondly - Prot DPS has a higher crit rate (more crit talents), meaning that it will take more advantage of the +100% crit damage when you have a 5 stack SoV debuff up.
Thirdly - those numbers were based on using a 1.6sec tanking weapon, which has since been debunked. Using a 2.5sec melee DPS weapon improves SoB/M/V dps on HotR procs.
Fourthly - consider the actual benefit from RV. You're doing 30% of damage over 8 seconds, or 7.5% damage over 2 seconds (seeing as you'll never do the whole 30% proc), so you're only going to get 3.75% of the damage adding to your DPS number. That comes out to be ~0.19 on those numbers.
Fifthly, that analysis very generously assumed that Ret was going to get 100% uptime on all of its abilities. WWS reports in 3.2 that I looked up for a baseline suggested that despite FCFS, due to clashes, CS has uptime of 82%, DS had 84%, Consecration had 92%, Exo had 92%. Those calculations assumed that Prot would get uptime in line with the 9-6 rotation. So although not including Vengeance was bad, it was offset entirely (if not moreso) by not including ability uptimes.
If you look at that post, I even opened it by saying that I vastly outperformed it with my Ret spec.
Anyway, I do believe that 3.2 essentially destroyed Protribution for PvE, mostly due to the change to ShoR. Protribution would still probably scale better with items in 3.1 especially once you factor in Stamina increases on gear, but come 3.2, there isn't enough to overcome the ShoR nerf.
Post by
Synectics
Wow, someone's a bit touchy today.
I didn't know this was your forum, telling me to GTFO because I don't agree with someone is kinda harsh isn't it?
After all, it's a discussion forum.
Yeah. This is my playground. Take your ball and go home.
And if you're calling me a liar again, or that I should read this entire topic (which I won't do, I don't believe in this crap),
^ That was seriously where I did a svirve and stopped caring about what you have to say. If you're so hell-bent on proving this wrong, but refuse to listen to the other side's discussion, urdoinitworng.
Ok, so I actually read through this
whole stupid thread
, didn't find a
single ret-prot comparison
, so I went on to the other thread linked in the first post and this is what I found
Looking through this "whole stupid thread," I've noticed numerous people accounting that the build works for them. I've also seen several times Squish asking for people to provide as many comparisons as possible. Crazy thing here, but Squish and svirve can't do EVERY SINGLE DAMN THING on their own.
So... why not try it out? Why be so damn QQ-ish about it, and just give it a try? You make it sound like it's a broken idea, when plenty of people not only have tried it and liked it, but prefer it (I personally LOVE it for PvP but that's a different story from PvE).
It's like a pizza shop owner who has done nothing but make pizzas for a living stepping into a BBQ steak joint, and telling them that they aren't making their food right, and then telling them that making BBQ steaks is stupid -- they should be making pizzas.
If you don't like the idea, and don't support it, fine -- quit reading. But parading around saying that this is a stupid idea, stupid concept, and that anyone who supports it is stupid is just plain arrogant and, to me, intolerable.
Post by
Squishalot
Synectics, give it a break. Dobbel's always been arguing his point from a PvE perspective, which is valid, given the changes in 3.2.
He is right about one thing - the old maths that we've been relying on isn't 100% bulletproof, but that's because svirve and I spent more time working on the spreadsheet and incorporating all those other talents, and demonstrating elsewhere that it scaled better in 3.1.
Anyway, Dobbel, if you wanted some numbers for 3.1:
Using uptime of:
Judgement: 85%
Exo: 92%
Cons: 92%
CS: 82%
DS: 84%
Identical equipment providing 700 Str, 700 Stam, 300 Crit rating and nothing else. Only difference is that Ret uses a Titansteel Destroyer, Prot uses Titansteel Bonecrusher and Titansteel Shield Wall.
Ret Crit%: 24.72%
Prot Crit%: 30.72%
Ret DPS: 1833.50
Prot DPS: 1812.86 (without benefit of raid-wide auras such as Sanctified Retribution and Swift Retribution).
If Strength increases by 100:
Ret DPS: 1917.45 (increase of 83.95)
Prot DPS: 1898.91 (increase of 86.05)
Numbers can be replicated using the spreadsheet that svirve and I have been working on (with modifications - unfortunately, I can't summarise them all here).
If you include Righteous Vengeance (by taking the average damage of Judgement, CS and DS, multiplying by 30% and dividing by 8 to get the DPS - any issues with this?), scaling goes back marginally in front for Ret. If you give Swift Retribution and Sanctified Retribution to Prot, then scaling goes back in front for Prot.
So in a 3.1 group context, if you already have a Ret paladin, then the Prot paladin will scale with equipment and buffs better than a second Ret paladin.
Post by
svirve
^ That was seriously where I did a svirve and stopped caring about what you have to say. If you're so hell-bent on proving this wrong, but refuse to listen to the other side's discussion, urdoinitworng.
Lol that doesnt sound like me does it? oO
Anyways, since drama is worse here than on a spanish soap opera i'd like to summarize what i've done to the spreadsheet today and yesterday (?).
Added SoV
Corrected SoV
Added glyphs
Failed at adding glyphs
Smacked myself across the head
Added glyphs
Seemed kinda weak with only added glyphs and added sov so i included the steps to get there.
Post by
65116
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
svirve
I think we agreed on
this
being the optimal spec + glyphs.
Would be fun to see someone with better gear trying this out, so far it's mostly been the odd naxx 10/25 pieces.
Was the 15% extra critchance on judgement added into your calculations?
Was the 50% more crit chance on HoW added into your calculations?
Was the extra uptime of Avenging Wrath added into your calculations?
(Assuming squishy used our spreadsheet)
Yes
Yes
No, unless squishy's been working behind my back. Atleast i havn't started modeling wings yet.
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.