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Post by
Skyfire
Mages have always scaled poorly against the non-mana bar classes (slightly better against Hunters/Paladins and much better against Locks/SPriests), because we have mana bars and not infinite bars.
As for some opinion up there, I've always been of the opinion that Rogues should beat us out in raid, Locks should go even, and every other DPS spec/class should be sub-Mage. Obviously, one can't do that else we turn to thoughts like mahbauls' #4 point (which is a poor point to make in that manner, btw).
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292516
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363728
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Post by
Achloryn
Hey, maybe the numbers are from BC (they might actually be). /shrug.
sorry if i sounded kinda @#$%^&-bagish. It was a genuine curiosity, but if the numbers are from BC.... lol.
As to balance, i think we do very well.
Mathematically Rogues and Ferals should top us. So? I don't think mages have a "preliminary right" to be DPS #1. Yeah, probably a hybrid class like a Feral shouldn't do as much damage as a pure damage class like mages. But so what. If we start to lag behind, do significantly less damage than other classes, and thus are being dropped out of raid line-ups, we have a reason to complain. However, this is not the case. Most raids take 2-3 mages with them, which is fair, and given that state, i couldn't care less whether i'm #1 or #7 in the damage meter.
As stated before, i think we're doing very much OK. Change is good, but i'd rather have no change than change to the worse.
yes, we do very well.. however, blizzard has gone on record as saying that hybrid classes shouldn't out-dps pure-DPS classes. I don't mind losing to a rogue, they're another pure DPS class. However, losing to a DK and a feral kittie? That is not supposed to happen, and Blizzard knows this.. There was a blue post that even mentions pure dps classes vs. hybrid dps classes somewhere, but it's been a while since i've read it and i don't remember where it was.
Post by
Skyfire
So you're saying mages should bring absolutely no in-fight utility and no worthwhile dps?
Uh... no? I said there's a proper place for Mage DPS, and that should be tied at #2 with Locks.
and for the love of god is there anyway to change my username?
Email feedback@wowhead.com with your current and requested names.
Post by
371537
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Post by
Forbbidenone
My personal feelings are that Blizzard has given up on making mages viable in arena. Its seems they are more interested in telling us how great we are in PvE and how balanced it is.
It seems that the most skilled mages do well, the rest of us at the mid to fairly skilled find our selves in a laughably bad position when face an opponent who has played this game for more than 3 weeks.
Many classes have hard counters to our classes abilities, or can deal such large amounts of burst damage its nigh impossible to react fast enough, at least for those of us that are within the human range of reaction time.
PvE I'm fairly competitive. I feel that if I play to my best I should have top damage or very nearly top when others are similarly geared and skilled. I find Warlocks, DK's, Rogues, Feral druids, and some Warriors are topping me even when I know for sure they aren't as geared and often aren't as skilled. Sounds very snobbish there sorry. I do understand that I am not the greatest mage out there, but I can hold my own at least in PvE.
That said I loves my mage, just wanna be able to do a few arenas without it being regulated to only one working team composition, or walk into a BG and not get 3-5 shotted by nearly every class. Just make Resilence work better for us or something.
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292516
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Post by
twsX
And, once again, raiders who can't look past their own experience fail to understand that PvP does really exist. The mana problems mentioned were in PvP. And while people don't like being beat by ferals, most people are -okay- with where mages in PvE. It's the fact that mages ONLY succeed in RMP and almost nowhere else. Certainly not as well as they should have been.Thinking of PvP actually didn't come to my mind, being the PvE-&*!@# i am. Sorry about that, my bad.
Oh dear lord the paladins have infiltrated our ranks.
Saying arcane needs to go fire l0lz0rz isn't a solution. There isn't a class out there that has
TWO
entirely useless raiding specs for heals/tanks/dps.
The intended short-term dps of Arcane was never meant to scale downward with gear.
maybe you like to be bad, but I don't. Just the fact that with better gear mages fall behind druids and rogues and even DKs apparently (example: every yogg+0) shows there is a balance problem.
The mage is supposed to be the true show of dps. While classes like paladins bring in the big buffs and the 20k heals mages can only bring dps and a
crappy intellect buff
that barely beats
affliction locks
. Just the ability to say that we actually don't bring anything worthwhile to a raid shows that we're unbalanced. THINK. If we bring 7th place dps and a buff that barely beats out locks then how are we an upgrade to the 6th place warlock? Why not just pick up more locks?
That wasn't intended as a warlock rant so please don't bring it up. it's just that they compare easiest with mages.
Paladins? :/
Anyway..
I never said it was a solution. Yeah, being a pure damage dealer class, our other specs should be viable for PvE. Yeah, i think Arcane *should* have more manageable mana flow, and Frost *should* be a viable alternative for PvE. I completely support that.
However
, given the current situtation (where Arcane uses way too much mana and Frost does not do enough damage), it seems silly to me to use those specs and then complain about its known problems.
True. Doesn't change anything though. See "current situation" above.
Thank you, but i'm not _that_ bad, i do OK. To use Yogg+0 as an example is silly imho, as that encounter uses a rather unique mechanic that can't serve as a comparison to raid bosses in general. Also, looking at sample outputs, personal experience and theory, if you're being beaten by a DK, you're doing it wrong.
If everything points towards us being useless, how come we're still very present in raids? It's magic!
yes, we do very well.. however, blizzard has gone on record as saying that hybrid classes shouldn't out-dps pure-DPS classes. I don't mind losing to a rogue, they're another pure DPS class. However, losing to a DK and a feral kittie? That is not supposed to happen, and Blizzard knows this.. There was a blue post that even mentions pure dps classes vs. hybrid dps classes somewhere, but it's been a while since i've read it and i don't remember where it was.
That is what i think. Though, i don't really mind being beaten by hybrids as long as they don't take away our spots, which, as far as i can see, is not happening. At least not yet.
If it was, i would be angry too.
Uh... no? I said there's a proper place for Mage DPS, and that should be tied at #2 with Locks.
Just out of curiousity:
Why do you think Hunters, which too are a pure DPS class, ought to be behind us?
Or rogues before us, for that matter? Just because hunters can feign death and rogues have to stand near the actual boss? I don't really see those as a reason for such a ranking.
I get and agree with your point that a hybrid class who actually has the option to heal or tank should not outperform or match a pure DPS class. But what gives rogues a right to be better than mages, or mages and warlocks to be better than hunters?
Although, nevermind, disregard that last part, i hate hunters.
I would like to point out, though, that our class has always done "OK", and never suffered any long-term shortcomings.
Think of hunters. They've been "useless" (or, less-useful-than-all-the-others) during most of the later half of WoW classic. I remember doing Patchwerk with 40 men and 0 hunters. They simply weren't lined up for the designated Patchwerk-evening, because their damage didn't measure up.
Or think of warlocks. They've had their hard time not so long ago.
Or Warriors, one of the classes that had to cash in so many nerfs. They're having a hard(er) time right now.
But when have Mages ever been at a really weak spot?
During all the time i've played, which is from 1.2 to now (with the exception of SWP-WotLK release), we have never been discharged as unfit for raids, whereas most classes have at a time.
They may have never been keen on doing something about issues raised by most of us. i.e. they haven't ever made frost mages useful in PvE eversince we started to have a reason to complain when everybody specced Fire in the BWL/AQ era, but they've always kept us fit to raid.
Although i'm really no Blizzard fanboy, i think this is something they should be congratulated on.
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292516
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45538
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292516
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Post by
Achloryn
That is what i think. Though, i don't really mind being beaten by hybrids as long as they don't take away our spots, which, as far as i can see, is not happening. At least not yet.
If it was, i would be angry too.
I don't terribly mind being beaten by hybrids either, tbh. However, if blizz says it shouldn't be happening simply based on the pure dps class > hybrid dps class rule, then it shouldn't be happening.. I'm also kind of sore about the fact that a feral druid can tank and/or dps with a minimal amount of gear change and almost no difference in their spec. And their pvp set is optimal tanking gear? sheesh. lets just make sure any of us who sees a kittie out in the world instantly dies, shall we?... but i digress.
I'm gonna try to put this thread back on topic and relate it more specifically to 3.2 upcoming changes
Good news for frost pvp mages, it looks as though some additional haste pvp gear is being added (bracers, boots, belt) in addition to the expected upgrades of old haste items. The full list can be found here.
thumbs up.. Blizz finally figured something out for real. Pvp mages want haste! now... if only we could figure out how to get them to realize that our mana pool is too small in pvp gear.....
Post by
120665
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45538
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367020
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Post by
Achloryn
Also, while the change to the frostbolt is good... Umm.... We sorta need the crit. Yeah, I know, shatter blahblah. But shatter isn't as good as it used to be because of all the resilience, all the anti-crit cooldowns and all the bloody escapes. We can't afford to NOT get crits off shatters... And we're not. I have 15% crit from gear, my shaman keeps up my arcane focus a lot. I keep up Winter's Chill and I talent into all the crit stuff. But I'm -lucky- to get 50% crit rate off shatters in arena.
i'm glad i'm not the only one who was somewhat disappoined with the change to empowered frostbolt. I agree that haste is nice, but at the cost of our extra crit chance? granted, it isn't a game breaking crit chance, but damn it still sucks to lose that.. you're abo^&*!e right, shatter just
isn't getting the job done anymore
. I like the idea someone (hell it might've been you) had about raising the crit damage from shatter to 75% instead of 50%. That'll make it more worthwhile for shatter combos, and make them scale better with frostbolt's crappy spell power scaling.
even in BGs where people generally don't have the kinda resil you'd see from someone in arenas, shatter combos are just... a joke nowadays. I went arcane for pvp recently just to see how it would do for me, and given a bit of time tog et used to the playstyle, I think, provided frost doesn't see some serious changes, it could be my new pvp spec.
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292516
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79146
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