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Abortion Debate
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Post by
MyTie
Why do you consider a fetus to be a human being?Because the DNA structure of an unborn child, less than 1 minute after conception, is completely unique. It is also human DNA. It is not pig DNA. It is not bird DNA. It is human DNA. Take a sample from that fetus, and medically, you can show that it came from a human being, that is neither the mom nor the dad. It is its own human being, scientifically provable, and medically accepted. It is human. Further, it qualified as life. It is not inanimate, and it is not dead. It is, therefore, by very scientific definition, a unique human life.
/shrug So, you'd rather have the child carried to full term, then dumped into an orphanage, where it may or may not be adopted over the course of it's life, depending on who the mother had been?Yes. That's a simple question. I don't think we should go around to orphanages clubbing children to death to save them from their horrid lives. Think about your logic.Abortion due to rape constitutes less than 1% of all abortions. In 2006, 50% of all pregnancies in New York city ended in abortion.I'd like to see the numbers between those two; how many of that 50% was actually due to rape. Of course, there are cases where a young girl, raped by a family member/friend of the family, who ended up pregnant and had to have the fetus aborted or the girl would have died due to complications.Rape less than 1% (you have to do the math, but
here
is the source). I'm actually having trouble finding the 50% of New York City pregnancies in 2006 source. I know I've read it before.
Here
is a 40% for 2011, including a 63% stat for teenage pregnancies. Interestingly,
here
is one for abortion in New York City that shows more deaths attributed to abortion than to all other causes of death combined (2008).Beyond that: I don't care. If a woman wants to have an abortion after a one night stand, that's her choice. If a married woman wants to abort a child after getting pregnant by her lover(IE not the husband), still her choice.
What I do want, is the religious fanatic doctors who &*!@ with young girls, and keep on forcing them past the 23rd week period where they can't have the abortion anymore, just because they think they know best for the girls, whether they are actually of the same belief or not, to be arrested, have their medical licenses stripped and face full censer for their actions....and not be treated as if they are doing 'a good thing'.I don't want kids to die, so I guess I'm a religious fanatic? Quite honestly, I was appalled to find out that people did abortions long before I considered myself religious at all. It comes with being a, well, a human. I have empathy.
Post by
Adamsm
Beyond that: I don't care. If a woman wants to have an abortion after a one night stand, that's her choice. If a married woman wants to abort a child after getting pregnant by her lover(IE not the husband), still her choice.
I don't want kids to die, so I guess I'm a religious fanatic? Quite honestly, I was appalled to find out that people did abortions long before I considered myself religious at all. It comes with being a, well, a human. I have empathy.
Never said you were; however, those type of peoples should not be in a position of power over life and death. I've never been appalled about abortion, mainly because it doesn't have a thing to do with me, since it's still about the woman's choice, not the guys or people outside of the situation itself. I have empathy as well, but I just don't see why what they do is really that important to the rest of us.
Post by
MyTie
I've never been appalled about abortion, mainly because it doesn't have a thing to do with me, since it's still about the woman's choice, not the guys or people outside of the situation itself. I have empathy as well, but I just don't see why what they do is really that important to the rest of us.
The guy has nothing to do with his unborn child? He helped create that child. Perhaps you aren't aware of how children are made?
This has to do with "the rest of us" because living human beings are dieing. It is your responsibility, as a human, to have "something to do" about it. /boggle
those type of peoples should not be in a position of power over life and death
Maybe this is just me, but I'd rather have a religious fanatic in power, who doesn't want to kill people, than a religious atheist who approves of abortion.
How are you so sure that a human child is not being put to death? What is the difference between a birthed child and an unborn child that entitles the born to life and not the unborn? At what point is it "ok" to kill the unborn? What quality is necessary for an entitlement to life?
Post by
Adamsm
The guy has nothing to do with his unborn child? He helped create that child. Perhaps you aren't aware of how children are made?If it's a one night stand, I'm guessing he probably doesn't care all that much.
This has to do with "the rest of us" because living human beings are dieing. It is your responsibility, as a human, to have "something to do" about it. /boggleSays who? I mean really, why do you have the right to tell someone else what they should or shouldn't do with their body?
those type of peoples should not be in a position of power over life and death
Maybe this is just me, but I'd rather have a religious fanatic in power, who doesn't want to kill people, than a religious atheist who approves of abortion.So....you'd support someone who lies to scared little girls, promising to help them, then, once it's past the 23rd week, tell them 'Sorry, nothing I can do now, but you enjoy your life, hope your parents don't throw you out of the house and you can hopefully give that kid a good life even though your still just a kid yourself'....yeah....
How are you so sure that a human child is not being put to death? What is the difference between a birthed child and an unborn child that entitles the born to life and not the unborn? At what point is it "ok" to kill the unborn? What quality is necessary for an entitlement to life?
It's never okay; but that being said, it's not my decision to make, nor is it the governments or any religious power: That choice only ever belongs to the woman and, if he's actually in her life, her significant other. Everyone else should butt out as it's not their business. As for the rest of comment; I have no idea MyTie, since pretty much everyone can't agree: Some religions say that the Soul isn't put into the body till the baby takes their first breath, others say it's there the instant they are conceived. As for when science says it counts, well I have no idea.
Post by
HoleofArt
How are you so sure that a human child is not being put to death? What is the difference between a birthed child and an unborn child that entitles the born to life and not the unborn? At what point is it "ok" to kill the unborn? What quality is necessary for an entitlement to life?
Because a fetus is not a separate individual. It is living within a woman's body, completely dependent on her, without its own memories, thoughts, or abilities to survive. Yes, it might have its own unique DNA, but I fail to see how that qualifies it as a human being. Is it a unique organism? Yeah, so are the thousands of bacteria that live on your skin. Having human DNA can't be a qualifier either. Chimpanzees have human DNA. Dandruff has human DNA. Should each unique cell of my dandruff that is its own unique entity be considered another human being?
There should be a line, and drawing it at contraception is way too early. Once the child no longer depends on the mother's body to survive (birth) it can be considered a human being with rights.
Also, what about the mother, and her rights? Even if you give the fetus the right to life, what about the right to use the body of a human being in ways similar to a parasite? Nurturing a fetus is more than just an inconvenience. Nobody requires people to donate blood or organs, but donating your very life to that of a small organism with no human characteristics besides DNA should be required?
Post by
MyTie
I'm going to address the two parts of your post that I find the most irritating to me. The rest of it I'm going to shrug off. As a participant, that is my prerogative.
First:their bodyThat fetus is not part of her body. I literally hate this argument, because it feigns ignorance of the entire issue. The issue isn't those that are pro-not letting women put medical instruments into her body, and pro- letting women put medical instruments into her body. Come back to reality. If it were just 'her body', then we wouldn't be having this conversation. I can medically and scientifically demonstrate to you that there are two people in this equation.religionsThis is not a religious issue. Can you please drop this, because it only threatens to inflame the issue beyond its already volatile nature, and is demeaning to my knowledge of religious material, which nigh mentions abortion.
Post by
HoleofArt
First:their bodyThat fetus is not part of her body.
lol what? The fetus is literally connected to her body and survives off of her nourishment. No woman's body, no fetus. If you could medically and scientifically demonstrate that there are two "people" involved there wouldn't be anything to argue about. There aren't two people involved, there are two living things. One of which is a human with rights and consciousness, the other is fetus with no human qualities except DNA.
Edit: I'm done here. It's obvious Mytie that nobody will be able to change your mind on this issue. I presented my reasons for thinking what I do. That's all there really is to say.
/shrug
Post by
Adamsm
You know, forget it MyTie; I just don't care this much.
You have a very firm belief, and no matter what anyone puts, that's not going to change. I have my beliefs, which aren't going to change either.
Like I said when you bumped it back up: It's good that they are moving the Government away from the issue, now if the violent anti-abortion groups could be wiped out, that would be nice as well.
Last thing: For all that that some groups claim it's about saving lives, they sure do enjoy killing off the doctors.
Post by
MyTie
How are you so sure that a human child is not being put to death? What is the difference between a birthed child and an unborn child that entitles the born to life and not the unborn? At what point is it "ok" to kill the unborn? What quality is necessary for an entitlement to life?
Because a fetus is not a separate individual. It is living within a woman's body, completely dependent on her, without its own memories, thoughts, or abilities to survive. Yes, it might have its own unique DNA, but I fail to see how that qualifies it as a human being. Is it a unique organism? Yeah, so are the thousands of bacteria that live on your skin. Having human DNA can't be a qualifier either. Chimpanzees have human DNA. Dandruff has human DNA. Should each unique cell of my dandruff that is its own unique entity be considered another human being? Dandruff does not have its own unique human DNA. All the cells of your body make up your own DNA, and you did not come from a larger body of cells of the same DNA. Also, chimpanzees have DNA, but not human DNA. Also, fetuses have memories. That's a fairly recent finding. Also, are you just kind of making up this as you go?
There should be a line, and drawing it at contraception is way too early. Once the child no longer depends on the mother's body to survive (birth) it can be considered a human being with rights.There are humans, already born, who cannot survive on their own without help. Does that make them "not human".Also, what about the mother, and her rights? Even if you give the fetus the right to life, what about the right to use the body of a human being in ways similar to a parasite?Just because human A depends on human B to live, doesn't mean human B has the right to murder human A. Nurturing a fetus is more than just an inconvenience. Nobody requires people to donate blood or organs, but donating your very life to that of a small organism with no human characteristics besides DNA should be required?A woman being pregnant for someone is not 'donating her life'. She's still alive after the birth, so she retains her life. Further, fetuses have... pfft.. heartbeats, memories, fear, dreams, itches, laughter, yawns, hunger, etc etc etc. You don't know anything about this issue.
Post by
Adamsm
Also, fetuses have memories. That's a fairly recent finding.Can we get 3-4 links about that? Cause honestly, I've never heard that, and you'd think that would be big news.
Edit: Oh and when do they get them, is it before or after the 23rd week, cause if it's after, at that point, they are considered humans, which is why no 'real' doctor will do them.
Post by
MyTie
You know, forget it MyTie; I just don't care this much.I consider this more heinus than being pro-choice. Indifference to the possibility that there are children dieing. That's horrid.
You have a very firm belief, and no matter what anyone puts, that's not going to change.Barring divine intervention, I will not change my abortion view, nor compromise it. This is the most solid view that I have.now if the violent anti-abortion groups could be wiped out, that would be nice as well. This is a red herring.Last thing: For all that that some groups claim it's about saving lives, they sure do enjoy killing off the doctors.This could have been worded more carefully. There are people who enjoy killing abortion doctors, but those are extremely rare. You make it sound that being pro-life means killing abortion doctors is in your blood.
Post by
MyTie
Also, fetuses have memories. That's a fairly recent finding.Can we get 3-4 links about that? Cause honestly, I've never heard that, and you'd think that would be big news.
Edit: Oh and when do they get them, is it before or after the 23rd week, cause if it's after, at that point, they are considered humans, which is why no 'real' doctor will do them.
30 weeks is provable-
source
, before that there is no way of telling at this point.
And it was big news. I have a hunch I read more abortion news than you do. I care.
Post by
Adamsm
I consider this more heinus than being pro-choice. Indifference to the possibility that there are children dieing. That's horrid.Why? Because I don't feel moral outrage over the fact that someone is making a choice about what to do about their body? That what Janey down the block does isn't any of my business? That, hey, guess what, I don't consider fetus an actual human until they are born? Shock and awe, someone shoot me for being a callus individual. You know, you talked about empathy and how much you have for the fetus...yet, I've never really seen you extend that empathy to a poor over worked young woman who made a bad mistake and can't actually care for a child or be able to go through the full pregnancy....but hey, let's not make the fetus uncomfortable now shall we.
Barring divine intervention, I will not change my abortion view, nor compromise it. This is the most solid view that I have.Wasn't an insult or a slight.
now if the violent anti-abortion groups could be wiped out, that would be nice as well. This is a red herring.How so? You don't think those groups who attack the women going into and out of the abortion clinic's, the ones who attack doctors and nurses, should remain where they cause trauma and anguish to people?
Last thing: For all that that some groups claim it's about saving lives, they sure do enjoy killing off the doctors.This could have been worded more carefully. There are people who enjoy killing abortion doctors, but those are extremely rare. You make it sound that being pro-life means killing abortion doctors is in your blood.Did I? Since I mentioned the extremist and not all pro-life groups; but I have seen that those radicals sure do get played up, that even though 'What they did was a crime, they did it for the right reason' is trotted out a lot. But again, guess the fetus counts more then anyone else.
30 weeks is provable-
source
, before that there is no way of telling at this point.
And it was big news. I have a hunch I read more abortion news than you do. I care.
So, they are already human at that point, as well as being past the point that most respectable doctors would preform an abortion. Until they prove that the fetus is capable of that type of things before the 23rd week, gonna stick with with my beliefs in regards to the rights of the mother. And you keep saying you care, but that care only seems to extend to the fetus, not the mother; guess their rights must be a thousand times more important, never mind that the child could be the result of a rape or the like eh?
Post by
MyTie
Ok, Adamsm, either address this:their bodyThat fetus is not part of her body. I literally hate this argument, because it feigns ignorance of the entire issue. The issue isn't those that are pro-not letting women put medical instruments into her body, and pro- letting women put medical instruments into her body. Come back to reality. If it were just 'her body', then we wouldn't be having this conversation. I can medically and scientifically demonstrate to you that there are two people in this equation.or I'll ignore everything you say that includes the argument is about the mother's body. Here's where you are doing it again:I consider this more heinus than being pro-choice. Indifference to the possibility that there are children dieing. That's horrid.Why? Because I don't feel moral outrage over the fact that someone is making a choice about what to do about their body?
Post by
Adamsm
Since the medical community does not count a fetus as an actual human until the 23rd week, I'd say it counts as part of her body since it's using things from her to grow, same as our cells do, so before then it's not a 'child' to me. And yes MyTie, at any point up to then, it is about a woman(and possibly her partner) making a choice about what to do in regards to something that is a part of her.
But you still haven't explained why random people who have never met this woman before should get involved with her life just because she's doing something you see as a moral outrage but she doesn't share that view. And there are mothers who think long and hard before going to get the abortion, because if they tried to raise the child in the lives they currently have, it would be a miserable life, both for the kid and for the parent.
Edit: Of course, you are going to ignore everything you don't agree with anyways.
Edit 2: Also, you do realize about a third of what you link is actually against your views/thoughts right? Since that one about memories for fetus is after they are already considered humans, and even the links about Rape and Abortion had a bit of different amount then you think it did.
Post by
MyTie
Since the medical community does not count a fetus as an actual human until the 23rd week, I'd say it counts as part of her body since it's using things from her to grow, same as our cells do, so before then it's not a 'child' to me. And yes MyTie, at any point up to then, it is about a woman(and possibly her partner) making a choice about what to do in regards to something that is a part of her.You can show, through DNA, that that flesh is not her flesh. I don't care how people classify 'human' or 'life'. One thing that is 100% is that is NOT her.But you still haven't explained why random people who have never met this woman before should get involved with her life just because she's doing something you see as a moral outrage but she doesn't share that view. And there are mothers who think long and hard before going to get the abortion, because if they tried to raise the child in the lives they currently have, it would be a miserable life, both for the kid and for the parent.This is the easiest argument to deflect. Just because quality of life is in question, does NOT, and has NEVER qualified murder as acceptable.
Edit: Of course, you are going to ignore everything you don't agree with anyways.I'll do as I please. However, I don't know why you say I'm going to ignore stuff. I'm having a conversation with you here.Edit 2: Also, you do realize about a third of what you link is actually against your views/thoughts right?Which in particular? Quote me and then quote the part of my source that contradicts me, if you please.Since that one about memories for fetus is after they are already considered humans, and even the links about Rape and Abortion had a bit of different amount then you think it did.considered humans by you. And the 'amount I thought' was off by how much? 1%? Less?
Post by
Adamsm
You can show, through DNA, that that flesh is not her flesh. I don't care how people classify 'human' or 'life'. One thing that is 100% is that is NOT her.Still not an actual child at that point; at most, it's a growth.
This is the easiest argument to deflect. Just because quality of life is in question, does NOT, and has NEVER qualified murder as acceptable.Except, as long as it happens before that 23rd week, it's not murder as you aren't killing a child/human.
However, I don't know why you say I'm going to ignore stuff. I'm having a conversation with you here.You seemed to dodge away from So....you'd support someone who lies to scared little girls, promising to help them, then, once it's past the 23rd week, tell them 'Sorry, nothing I can do now, but you enjoy your life, hope your parents don't throw you out of the house and you can hopefully give that kid a good life even though your still just a kid yourself'....yeah....Really quickly, throwing in the comment about 'their body'.
And it's considered human by the Medical community; that is the reason they give for most respectable doctors not preforming the abortion after the 23rd week(now, the back ally/south of the border docs will apparently do them whenever).
Post by
MyTie
You can show, through DNA, that that flesh is not her flesh. I don't care how people classify 'human' or 'life'. One thing that is 100% is that is NOT her.Still not an actual child at that point; at most, it's a growth.
This is the easiest argument to deflect. Just because quality of life is in question, does NOT, and has NEVER qualified murder as acceptable.Except, as long as it happens before that 23rd week, it's not murder as you aren't killing a child/human.
However, I don't know why you say I'm going to ignore stuff. I'm having a conversation with you here.You seemed to dodge away from So....you'd support someone who lies to scared little girls, promising to help them, then, once it's past the 23rd week, tell them 'Sorry, nothing I can do now, but you enjoy your life, hope your parents don't throw you out of the house and you can hopefully give that kid a good life even though your still just a kid yourself'....yeah....Really quickly, throwing in the comment about 'their body'.
And it's considered human by the Medical community; that is the reason they give for most respectable doctors not preforming the abortion after the 23rd week(now, the back ally/south of the border docs will apparently do them whenever).
Ok duder. Let's go back to the basics then.
Define "human".
Define "life".
Does an entity that will grow into a human, but is less than 23 weeks old, meet the qualifications of the first two definitions?
What changes at 23 weeks that makes the lump of flesh into a living human being with rights?
Finally, what qualifies the medical community or legal community to decide it is ok to kill something they do not fully understand?
Post by
Azazel
Uhh, hi.
I think abortion should be the choice of the parents and noone else.
Post by
MyTie
Uhh, hi.
I think abortion should be the choice of the parents and noone else.
Could you explain why you believe this?
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