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Abortion Debate
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Post by
gamerunknown
Where have I heard this
...
I was lucky enough to go to a lecture by Zimbardo, the deindividuation research was quite convincing... However, his later stuff on time conception and personality seemed to lack empirical support. Someone speaking before him also spent quite a long time saying that most of the deaths of the 20th century were attributable to
atheism
* and he spent quite a bit of time on how lacking religion is terrible.
* I don't deny that some people were interred in gulags and killed for their faith in Soviet Russia, but according to the wiki the numbers are in the hundreds of thousands - still, shocking and regrettable.
Post by
Magician22773
just as a family of a braindead individual has the option to remove them from life-support as said individual has ceased to be a person,
The braindead individual has ceased to be alive, not ceased to be a person.
Post by
272830
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Layci
If NO (pro-choice stance):
What about the life lost? If we're blunt the world is over-populated as is.
What is the difference between abortion and murder? If we're speaking *only* about *LEGAL* abortion, then a lot - many vital organs aren't even developed yet. To be clear I am not pro-abortion at any point in pregnancy, it greatly depends.
What does 'choice' mean? Why shouldn't mothers get the choice to kill children already born?
See previous answer, after a certain point in pregnancy I would no longer agree with it. This includes after birth, obviously. ;P
If 'life' is something we cannot scientifically define in an unborn baby, then how is it acceptable for us to arbitrarily decide to abort it?
I think it's a better option than seeing women become mothers simply for the fact that they were denied the ability to terminate. A lot of times when the mother, for instance, can't pay for an abortion or finds out too late, they end up trying to harm the fetus anyway. You can't make someone who doesn't want to have a baby, have a baby. Regardless of the circumstances.
Post by
MyTie
Oh.... my.... gosh.
This
summarizes my viewpoint on abortion better than anything else I've read before. I consider myself very capable of communicating my viewpoint adequately, but the writer of that article needs to GET OUT OF MY HEAD. Not only does the viewpoint perfectly mirror mine, but the way it is delivered is with the same sarcastic bluntness that exposes pro-choice arguments with such effectiveness. I'll quote my favorite part:That’s it, you guys. I admit it. I oppose Partial Birth Abortion not because I have a problem with half-born babies being stabbed in the back of the neck with scissors so their brains can be sucked out with a vacuum, but because I can’t stand the idea of women having equal rights. You got me!
This is the kind of moral upside-downness that pervades our culture. In whatever passes for morality in Obama’s mind, denying women equal rights with men is a far worse than stabbing babies in the back of the neck with scissors, never mind that it is beyond me what “equal rights for women” has to do with abortion. Men don’t get pregnant, but if they did, I’d have a problem with them aborting their babies, too.Ah.... it's beautiful.
Post by
Morec0
I say let it be a choice. Counsel them on all the other possible options, maybe even try to convince them otherwise, but in the end, let it be a choice. The mother and fathers choice, just the mothers choice, dosn't matter to me.
While I may not fully agree with everything either side of the argument says, I do agree with this: it is partially the ability to choose based on opinion and reason, not solely instinct, that makes us human. There should always be a choice between at least two options.
That's on a purely reason-based stance, personally I'd rather see them put the child up for adoption if they don't want it. But my opinion is not law.
Post by
MyTie
For time's sake, I'll keep my reply to you brief, Morec:
I disagree. There doesn't always need to be the option to choose, when there is a definitely WRONG choice. If there should always be an option to choose, even when something is wrong, then why shouldn't women be allowed to choose to kill their infants? Why is choice and abortion somehow tied together, in ways that choice and infanticide is not? I can demonstrate, on a biological level, that both are unique living human beings. That is not a matter of opinion. Why is one choice ok but not the other? Personally, I don't think women should be allowed to murder their infants any more than they can choose to murder their unborn.
And, other beings besides humans function on logic and not just instinct. Therefore, that isn't what "makes us human".
Post by
Lombax
Has the fetus caused anything to anyone? A reaction, a feeling or anything at all? According to me: no. And since it hasn't I'm not going to count it as a person, it's a human but it hasn't affected the world in any way. Therefore I see that abortion is right.
MyTie the choice of abortion is not definitely wrong. That's only your opinion.
Post by
204878
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
Has the fetus caused anything to anyone? A reaction, a feeling or anything at all? According to me: no. And since it hasn't I'm not going to count it as a person, it's a human but it hasn't affected the world in any way. Therefore I see that abortion is right.Out of sight out of mind argument. I'm glad to know that you feel yourself a worthy judge as to what makes someone worthy enough to live.MyTie the choice of abortion is not definitely wrong. That's only your opinion.Yep. In my subjective opinion, baby killing is wrong. Same with rape. Are you saying that since these things are not objectively measurable that there should be no rules against?Is that the only form of abortion you don't approve of?
You know the answer to this. There is no form of abortion that I approve of. Any time that someone takes the life of another person, it is a tragedy.
On a side note, it seems like liberals/conservatives are on the wrong side of the argument. It seems like liberals should be the ones arguing for the rights of the baby. The right to life is fundamental. They argue against the death penalty. They argue for the right to life for cattle. And it seems like conservatives should be the uncaring de-regulatory capitalists that want government out of the medical field. How is it that we find me, the stark conservative on the side of life, and the liberals on the side of abortion?
Post by
204878
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
buzz3070
On a side note, it seems like liberals/conservatives are on the wrong side of the argument. It seems like liberals should be the ones arguing for the rights of the baby. The right to life is fundamental. They argue against the death penalty. They argue for the right to life for cattle. And it seems like conservatives should be the uncaring de-regulatory capitalists that want government out of the medical field. How is it that we find me, the stark conservative on the side of life, and the liberals on the side of abortion?
It really all comes down to their philosophies, birth would be considered a traditional insitution to conservatives and therefore should not be changed at all while liberals (i guess, im not really one to do research into these things) argue that giving birth is a right and should the women choose to change her mind and not give birth then that is her right that is to be protected.
On the subject, in the past i have been pro choice but im slowly coming to the pro life side, the only instance i would find abortion to be the right thing to do (not really sure about my word choice here) is in the case of the mothers life being at risk, speaking from how i would do things if it came to that point (and i really hope it will never come) i would argue for the abortion, really for 2 things, i would not want to give up the life of my wife (FYI im 20 and single) for a child because if i did i would have 2 options, keep it and raise it in which case i would be constantly remined that it was due to this child that my wife died and who knows that kind of trauma that might inflict on me and i might channal onto the child, or i could give the child up for adoption because of the pain i would feel of raising it. In which case i would constantly be remined that i would not raise the child both me and my wife wanted and i would constantly be ashamed of myself for doing it and again might cause psycological tramua.
i would argue in all other instances like rape and and incest the women really does not have an attachment to the child and besides the one that forms at birth, it should be easy (again probably a poor choice of words) for her to give up the child for adoption because of lack of attachment.
Post by
MyTie
Do me a favor doc, don't put the meat industry and abortion industry into the same argument. Concerning the flesh of your point (no pun intended): Abortion is not a "necessary evil" for financial hardship. If that argument DOES apply, then it should logically apply to infanticide.
Buzz is closer to my view, but still allows for some abortions. I cannot stand for
any
abortions.
Post by
Lombax
So you would rather have a person die then have a abortion?
Post by
buzz3070
From page 2 of this thread you can see his answer is yes.
2nd point: Again, I'll tell this story.... My wife and I were faced with the situation you describe. There was the possibility that the pregnancy, in the 1st trimester, could have killed my wife. We decided that faceing death itself was a better fate than having our children's blood on our hands. We did not abort. She had a miscarriage later. The baby's life ended naturally, when it was supposed to. He died at the end of his life, not when we decided to abort him. My wife could have died, but she faced the possibility with her chin up, and bravery in her eyes. He didn't quite make it into the third trimester. His name was Jacob.
I think I've shed a little light on how fervantly I oppose abortion.
Post by
Lombax
I'm glad to know that you feel yourself a worthy judge as to what makes someone worthy enough to live.
I'm glad that you feel yourself a worthy judge to ban something that can be used to avoid ruined lives.
If I would get a girl pregnant right now I would tell her to get a abortion because 1:
I can in no way support a child 2: I don't want a child and 3: There's no person on the earth I would want to have a child with. Getting a child would %^&*ed my life up really bad, there's no way I wouldn't tell the girl to get a abortion.
As I said earlier: abortion being evil/bad is your opinion.
Post by
MyTie
I'm glad to know that you feel yourself a worthy judge as to what makes someone worthy enough to live.
I'm glad that you feel yourself a worthy judge to ban something that can be used to avoid ruined lives.
If I would get a girl pregnant right now I would tell her to get a abortion because 1:
I can in no way support a child 2: I don't want a child and 3: There's no person on the earth I would want to have a child with. Getting a child would %^&*ed my life up really bad, there's no way I wouldn't tell the girl to get a abortion.
As I said earlier: abortion being evil/bad is your opinion.
If a woman had your baby, and told you after it was born that it was yours, would you kill it? Would you have a problem with someone who did? What if they told you that they didn't want the baby, that it would %^&* up their life really bad, and that it was only your opinion that killing their baby was wrong? Would any of that make sense to you?
Post by
557473
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
296147
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
MyTie, he listed reasons why he might want girl he impregnated go for abortion. All seem pretty legit reasons, can you give him another options? And to, let's stay away from "they should have used protection" idea cause it either was not there when they needed it or it could have failed (condoms rip and stuff like that).
I don't think a baby in every situation where a baby was born is ideal. Unfortunately, there is no magic wand to wave all those who want babies get them, and all those who don't want babies, don't get them. I offer no miracle answer. What I do know is what is definitely the WRONG thing to do in a BAD situation and do something WORSE. I want to know why it is immoral to kill a child after birth, but a matter of opinion to kill a child before birth. Why are my claims that killing a child before birth being brushed off simply as opinion? It seems to me that if people are possibly dieing, the prudent thing would be to ensure that is not happening. It seems to me that the "burden of proof" here should lie with the pro abortion crowd, or pro choice, if you should so word it that way. The choice to have an abortion should first resolve the proof that no life is being harmed and this is not an immoral action.I think abortion should be a choice for the woman to decide. Saying "nuh uh you should never ever EVER abort a baby no matter what the circumstance because it goes against MY beliefs" is just wrong to me.
So people shouldn't impose their beliefs that stuff is wrong on other people? Your logic can apply to other areas of life, other than just abortion. I mean, pol pot, hitler, mao zedong, etc... I belive they were wrong to kill people, but who am I to be so pushy with my beliefs? Right?
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