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10.2.5
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10.2.6
Abortion Debate
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Post by
Gone
I still dont get the whole "I think its wrong but I support peoples right to make the choice" stance. People having the right to make any choice they wish, right or wrong is basically anarchy, so the logic of somebody supporting a choice they believe to be wrong baffles me. I mean if its a minor thing I get that, but the morality of abortion is life or death values for most people.
Post by
MyTie
Edit: Hell, this isn't even a 'debate' anymore, it's just personal opinion against personal opinion since no one is going to change their views in this thread.
It's not opinion. I have an opinion about economic policy, from historical observance and intuition. I have an opinion about religious preference. I have an opinion about immigration. I have an opinion about a plethora of political and social issues. Babies are dying. That isn't opinion. It isn't my opinion they are dying. They are. We have a president that opposed a bill that would help children not die. Then, him and his wife profess to know what is best for children by mandating what we feed them. Unbelievable.
There are some things that are wrong, Adamsm, regardless of your opinion or my opinion. Killing babies is one of those things.I still dont get the whole "I think its wrong but I support peoples right to make the choice" stance. People having the right to make any choice they wish, right or wrong is basically anarchy, so the logic of somebody supporting a choice they believe to be wrong baffles me. I mean if its a minor thing I get that, but the morality of abortion is life or death values for most people.
Because this is the most fashionable position at this point. A sort of liberal champion of women's empowerment and sexual freedom woven around murder. Makes you kind of unsympathetic to their positions. Or, it should.
Post by
Adamsm
And the opinion comes down to when it's considered a Baby: At conception, after a certain amount of time(IE the 23rd week), when it's born. Myself, it's not a baby till it's actually born, since I have the belief that they don't get their soul till that point.
Edit: And as it's my own belief, you can say you think it's wrong all you want, but that doesn't mean much to me.
But then again, since you apparently
consider those who are pro-choice the same as Nazi's well....it's obvious this thread ended on page 13.
Post by
MyTie
And the opinion comes down to when it's considered a Baby: At conception, after a certain amount of time(IE the 23rd week), when it's born. Myself, it's not a baby till it's actually born, since I have the belief that they don't get their soul till that point.
Edit: And as it's my own belief, you can say you think it's wrong all you want, but that doesn't mean much to me.
But then again, since you apparently
consider those who are pro-choice the same as Nazi's well....it's obvious this thread ended on page 13.
If I believe that you are not a human, but a kind of animal that I would like to make work for me for free, and I base this on your age, would that be "just my opinion", or would that be
factually incorrect
? If you think that is factually incorrect, could you please provide proof to me that you are in fact a living human being? Please keep in mind that all proof you provide I will treat with the same subjective dismissiveness that you do. Also keep in mind that I don't want this to be called "slavery" because, like genocide, that is just too harsh of a word, and we don't want to argue semantics.
Also, I have some fields that need plowed. What size yoke do you wear?
Edit: This illustration is not nearly as ridiculous as your actual position is. Ya know, that killing babies is all right because YOU don't actually consider them, ya know, humans. Parallels to Nazis killing Jews because they didn't actually consider them humans, somehow, in your mind, is completely unrelated. I'm just gonna need some more supporting logic. Looking forward to hearing it. I'm sure it's stupendously callous and careless with life.
Post by
Adamsm
So you have no actual response then, just general shruggery and assery? Whatever MyTie; I only stuck my head back in here because of that idiotic genocide is abortion comment.
Edit: Honestly MyTie, I just don't care that much on this topic. I still think it should only ever be in the hands of the parents, and everyone else should just get the hell out of their life.
Edit 2: Seriously MyTie, you are acting just like HSR at this point.
Post by
Levarus
So you have no actual response then, just general shruggery and assery? Whatever MyTie; I only stuck my head back in here because of that idiotic genocide is abortion comment.
Edit: Honestly MyTie, I just don't care that much on this topic. I still think it should only ever be in the hands of the parents, and everyone else should just get the hell out of their life.
Edit 2: Seriously MyTie, you are acting just like HSR at this point.
What's HSR?
Post by
164232
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
@Adams- I know you find it offensive, but if you look at it from the viewpoint of someone who thinks that these are babies, the parallel is almost exact. I know you don't consider them children, but MyTie does. That is not a fact you can dispute with him. If you were going to label a group of people who were systematically killing children (toddlers- people you consider human beings), would you not feel that they were pretty much the same as the Nazi's?
In this case, it's not general shruggery or assery, as you put it. It is, if you share the opinion that these are children being killed, very, very similar.
I ran into a similar argument, by MyTie, in the gay marriage thread. He got offended that I compared him believing homosexuality is a sin to someone being racist, and accused me of using the word to be dramatic. But, from my point of view, it is the exact same kind of attitude about a similar group of people, and I find the analogy almost exact. I wasn't trying to be dramatic, or to use offensive language for the sake of being offensive. I really feel the two attitudes are almost identical.
In this case, he's saying that mass murder of a group of people is almost identical regardless of whether it's because of age, or religion, and so he finds it an accurate analogy. I know that being compared to someone who supported the Holocaust seems like one of the nastiest, most vulgar things that someone can say about you (especially if they truly mean it). But if someone believes that actual children are being murdered, en masse, then the comparison is pretty close. Just because you don't agree with the parallel doesn't mean that someone is using it just to get a rise out of you.
Objectively speaking, if this thread was about people defending killing girl children- children who had been born and were living and breathing on their own- in China so that they could have a son, because of the economic benefits, wouldn't you liken their stance on the value of human life to the Nazi's?
Post by
Adamsm
What I find offensive is the insults; MyTie can say what he wants, thinks what he wants, but he doesn't need to insult people who don't think that way. As I said, I only stuck my head back in here because of what he compared it to, the idea of genocide. I also find it amusing that if it was the other way around, he'd be up in arms about it, but doesn't seem to have an issue when it's him.
Like I said, my feelings are still the same and all of the discussion here hasn't changed that view point. In all honesty, until I'm actually in the place where I'd have to make that choice with a significant other, I'm not going to hold their choice against them.
Objectively speaking, if this thread was about people defending killing girl children- children who had been born and were living and breathing on their own- in China so that they could have a son, because of the economic benefits, wouldn't you liken their stance on the value of human life to the Nazi's?Probably not; I rarely make the Nazi comparison.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
Well...genocide is the systematic wiping out of a group of people. The argument here is whether or not they're people yet. If they are people, then it fits the description of genocide. If they aren't then it doesn't. You can't be surprised that people who think that they're children call it genocide.
Post by
Adamsm
I get that people could possibly see it, but acting like it's the same thing as a 'true' genocide(such as World War 2, during the history of the Middle East etc etc) is a major stretch.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
Sigh...if people believe that they are "true" children, then there is no difference. What you're not understanding is that people who are pro life don't see them as "kind of human-ish, so we should probably play it safe and not remove the growth." They see them as children. And, for them, the difference between a baby that is 4 months old in the womb and a toddler who is one year old, is no greater than the difference between a child who is one and a child who is two, in terms of the value of human life.
If we were discussing a man who had killed 5 children, and the argument that it wasn't "real" murder because they were all infants who couldn't talk yet, would you agree? Would you say that his crime was less and the children's lives were worth less? I wouldn't think so- either way, he killed 5 children. Well, that's the position of someone who is pro-life. It's not a "lesser" crime to kill a child if it's younger, and so, to someone who is pro-life, there is no substantive difference between performing an abortion and killing a toddler.
I'm not trying to change your mind, because I know i won't. What I'm trying to show you is that your anger that they can't differentiate between "true genocide," which you consider horrible, and abortion, is the same anger that they feel that you can't differentiate between murder and a medical procedure. If they are children, then everything that is being done is as horrible as this strong language describes. If they're not, then their reactions are as outlandish as your language describes.
But you can't expect people who believe children are being murdered to think of it as less serious than when adults or older children are murdered.
Post by
MyTie
I get that people could possibly see it, but acting like it's the same thing as a 'true' genocide(such as World War 2, during the history of the Middle East etc etc) is a major stretch.
Assuming that it isn't is your mistake.So you have no actual response then, just general shruggery and assery?
Shruggery? I haven't shrugged of your points. I have addressed them quite clearly. You said, in a shrugging manner, that it's all just opinion, and you really don't care anyway. I'm the one being passionate. I'm the one arguing the points.
Now, the burden of proof, to prove that a fetus is NOT a human, MUST REST WITH YOU, and everyone who is not pro-life. Until you can prove that a fetus is not a living human being, and not just rest on opinion (which you admit that you do), then you are irresponsibly risking mass murder. I am still waiting for that proof. Not opinion. Proof. As soon as the proof is laid down, I will be pro-choice. Until that proof is given, the
only
responsible and ethical position on abortion is AGAINST.
Post by
Adamsm
/shrug And I can sorta understand that(of course, your child example is murder no matter what and their age doesn't matter), I just think that using that term for it, then trying to use the Nazi example on pro-choice group people is just too much, and the same goes for the people who paint the entire pro-life groups as nothing but fanatics and nut bars.
Post by
MyTie
/shrug And I can sorta understand that(of course, your child example is murder no matter what and their age doesn't matter), I just think that using that term for it, then trying to use the Nazi example on pro-choice group people is just too much, and the same goes for the people who paint the entire pro-life groups as nothing but fanatics and nut bars.
I'd rather be a pro life fanatic nut bar than a moderate and dispassionate pro choicer.
My main contention with you, and what I am singling in on can be described thus:
I do not agree with, nor will allow you to claim that a being's status as a living human being is a matter of opinion, at least, not allow you to claim that without being virulently challenged. If that challenge is found by you to be confrontational, that is not my intention, but I would rather be confrontational on this topic, than be mistaken as compromising.
Post by
MyTie
I ran into a similar argument, by MyTie, in the gay marriage thread. He got offended that I compared him believing homosexuality is a sin to someone being racist, and accused me of using the word to be dramatic.
The homosexual marriage topic is not a matter of life and death. The Nazi comparison is uncalled for, and inappropriate. In the case of abortion, death IS the topic.
Post by
Adamsm
I do not agree with, nor will allow you to claim that a being's status as a living human being is a matter of opinion, at least, not allow you to claim that without being virulently challenged. If that challenge is found by you to be confrontational, that is not my intention, but I would rather be confrontational on this topic, than be mistaken as compromising.
You can do that, just leave off on the insults as that doesn't help what you are trying to do. Challenge away, but don't insult my own intelligence, since you are big on that.
Post by
MyTie
You can do that, just leave off on the insults as that doesn't help what you are trying to do. Challenge away, but don't insult my own intelligence, since you are big on that.
Quote please.
Post by
Adamsm
Happened a few different times in this thread.
Post by
MyTie
Happened a few different times in this thread.
Between the Report and Reply button. Quote it.
Edit: I let it slide once that you say I insulted you personally. I explained my intentions, and then you went on further to say that I'm "big on insulting". Now, you get to back it up.
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