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Abortion Debate
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Post by
432158
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Ksero
The problem is, people think that THEIR moral views should be enforced on everyone
that's why it should always be up to the mother
You realize that you just said that people shouldn't have the right to enforce their morality on others, and then immediately after stated your own moral opinion as a truth right?
Your failure to look at the situation from your opponents point of view is the problem with what you said said. To a pro life individual, the fetus is a person, so the mother deciding to abort
is
an act of one person (the mother) enforcing their own viewpoint, at the expense of another person (the fetus).
You completely missed my point. I'll bold it this time.
Its not up to you to decide if the fetus is a person or not, its not up to me either, its up to the mother.
You say - They cant make they're own choices, I want to control their future
I say - They can make there own choice, its their future, they should have control over it.
If you the cant see the difference then you are seriously deluded.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
You say - They cant make they're own choices, I want to control their future
I say - They can make there own choice, its their future, they should have control over it.
And reverse that while talking about the fetus, and it's the exact same thing. That's the problem with this debate. It boils down to the same thing every time. One side holds the rights of the mother preeminent, the other side holds the rights of the fetus preeminent. There will never be any headway until both sides get past the rhetoric of "pro-life" vs "anti-woman" and "pro-choice" vs "pro-death".
Post by
MyTie
One side holds the rights of the mother preeminent, the other side holds the rights of the fetus preeminent.
One side holds the rights of the mother to an abortion preeminent, the other side holds the rights of the fetus to life preeminent.
Post by
Ksero
You say - They cant make they're own choices, I want to control their future
I say - They can make there own choice, its their future, they should have control over it.
And reverse that while talking about the fetus, and it's the exact same thing. That's the problem with this debate. It boils down to the same thing every time. One side holds the rights of the mother preeminent, the other side holds the rights of the fetus preeminent. There will never be any headway until both sides get past the rhetoric of "pro-life" vs "anti-woman" and "pro-choice" vs "pro-death".
No, I'm not saying what you want me to be saying, I'm not saying i want control over the fetus' future, its up to mother if she believes the fetus is not a human, she is free to abort it, if she thinks it is a human, she has the option to carry it full term, even if she knows it will damage life situation. Where you are wrong is its not your fight to step in on, all the pro lifers keep avoiding the point that : MOTHER AND FETUS ARE THE ONLY 2 PARTS OF THE EQUATION THAT MATTER, what you want, or what I want, could not be more irrelevant.
Post by
MyTie
if she thinks it is a human
is absolutely 100% completely irrelevant. You can draw DNA from the fetus and scientifically prove it is a human. So, I honestly don't give a crap if the mother thinks it's some weird alien gross thing. An unborn baby can't look any worse than a penis, and she wanted that inside her... so... well... this is getting a bit heavy. Time for a nap.
Post by
Ksero
if she thinks it is a human
is absolutely 100% completely irrelevant. You can draw DNA from the fetus and scientifically prove it is a human. So, I honestly don't give a crap if the mother thinks it's some weird alien gross thing. An unborn baby can't look any worse than a penis, and she wanted that inside her... so... well... this is getting a bit heavy. Time for a nap.
semantics, i should have said LIVING human (or baby), why use reducto ad absurdum in your arguments, it gets you nowhere with people who are trying to have a healthy debate
Post by
Squishalot
if she thinks it is a human
is absolutely 100% completely irrelevant. You can draw DNA from the fetus and scientifically prove it is a human. So, I honestly don't give a crap if the mother thinks it's some weird alien gross thing. An unborn baby can't look any worse than a penis, and she wanted that inside her... so... well... this is getting a bit heavy. Time for a nap.
semantics, i should have said LIVING human (or baby), why use reducto ad absurdum in your arguments, it gets you nowhere with people who are trying to have a healthy debate
The point is that it is a living organism with human DNA. It might not have the necessary characteristics for self-sustaining life, but it's human nonetheless.
I think the Japanese approach, in which parents do penance for their aborted fetuses, is interesting in the context of questioning the value of a fetus and whether it has life, yet allowing abortion within their culture, and balancing those views.
Post by
Ksero
if she thinks it is a human
is absolutely 100% completely irrelevant. You can draw DNA from the fetus and scientifically prove it is a human. So, I honestly don't give a crap if the mother thinks it's some weird alien gross thing. An unborn baby can't look any worse than a penis, and she wanted that inside her... so... well... this is getting a bit heavy. Time for a nap.
semantics, i should have said LIVING human (or baby), why use reducto ad absurdum in your arguments, it gets you nowhere with people who are trying to have a healthy debate
The point is that it is a living organism with human DNA. It might not have the necessary characteristics for self-sustaining life, but it's human nonetheless.
I think the Japanese approach, in which parents do penance for their aborted fetuses, is interesting in the context of questioning the value of a fetus and whether it has life, yet allowing abortion within their culture, and balancing those views.
once agian, people misunderstand me, I am not stupid, I realise a fetus has human DNA. im trying really hard not to get frustrated here. but people pick what they want from my post and ignore my POINT.
It is up to the mother to decide if the fetus is alive or not, therefore it is up to her whether or not she goes forward with an abortion. not me or you.
i said "human" instead of "living human", and people assume i think that some women have aliens inside them, wtf? Im sorry but im really tired of being treated like an idiot here.
My point was: the only view that matters is the mothers, and it's up to her whether or not the she thinks the fetus is alive .
not yours, not mine, not anyone elses
Post by
Monday
It is up to the mother to decide if the fetus is alive or not
Who says that it is up to the mother to decide if it is alive or not? I'm pretty dang sure that it's alive. It's not completely finished, but it's fairly alive.
Post by
Ksero
It is up to the mother to decide if the fetus is alive or not
Who says that it is up to the mother to decide if it is alive or not? I'm pretty dang sure that it's alive. It's not completely finished, but it's fairly alive.
You can have your opinion, but you don't have the right to force it on her. It is her fetus, so it's her choice.
why can't anyone get past that?
Even if you believe the fetus is alive, that has no bearing on her choice. The same way that i believe that the fetus is not alive, has no bearing on the choice she makes.
Post by
Squishalot
My point was: the only view that matters is the mothers, and it's up to her whether or not the she thinks the fetus is alive . not yours, not mine, not anyone elses
I think you're looking too much into what we're saying. It's not up to a mother to determine if their child is alive or not. It's not up to anybody to determine for themselves if their child, or anyone else, is alive or not. There is a legal definition, and perhaps a moral definition. Either way, that definition is an objective one, and when applied, should apply consistently.
I think the reason why you're getting upset at people is because they're taking your words (that a fetus is human, duh) and using that as their argument to why abortion shouldn't occur. Technically, the fetus is alive - it grows, it multiplies, it uses nutrients, and displays all the characteristics of life. If you look technically, objectively, it must be alive, in the same way that a mother's arm is alive. What you're really trying to say, I think, is that the question is whether the fetus is a life separate from the mother, or whether it's a part of the mother's life.
Post by
Eccentrica
if she thinks it is a human
is absolutely 100% completely irrelevant. You can draw DNA from the fetus and scientifically prove it is a human. So, I honestly don't give a crap if the mother thinks it's some weird alien gross thing. An unborn baby can't look any worse than a penis, and she wanted that inside her... so... well... this is getting a bit heavy. Time for a nap.
Well your misogyny that has been lurking in the background has come to the fore.
I've noticed his tendency to back out of an argument when he senses he is losing.
Post by
MrMojoRisin
it is up to the mother to decide if the fetus is alive or not, therefore it is up to her whether or not she goes forward with an abortion. not me or you.
Science has "proven" both sides of the fetus argument to be "true". For a Pro-life supporter to accept your argument, you would have to extend the "right" of the mother to choose to include killing their child even after birth. That is the stance that is taken by Pro-life supporters, and that is supported by not only their beliefs, but by science as well, that the fetus is a child from as early as conception, and certainly before
23 weeks
gestation.
Your argument, that you seem to think is so right, that anyone that cannot agree with you must be "deluded", is asking people to accept that a mother should have the right to choose to kill their child, inside or outside the womb. To me, that is "deluded".
Post by
Ksero
My point was: the only view that matters is the mothers, and it's up to her whether or not the she thinks the fetus is alive . not yours, not mine, not anyone elses
I think you're looking too much into what we're saying. It's not up to a mother to determine if their child is alive or not. It's not up to anybody to determine for themselves if their child, or anyone else, is alive or not. There is a legal definition, and perhaps a moral definition. Either way, that definition is an objective one, and when applied, should apply consistently.
I think the reason why you're getting upset at people is because they're taking your words (that a fetus is human, duh) and using that as their argument to why abortion shouldn't occur. Technically, the fetus is alive - it grows, it multiplies, it uses nutrients, and displays all the characteristics of life. If you look technically, objectively, it must be alive, in the same way that a mother's arm is alive. What you're really trying to say, I think, is that the question is whether the fetus is a life separate from the mother, or whether it's a part of the mother's life. Right, the fetus is alive the same way an amoeba, or tree is alive. that does not make it a person in my opinion. I realize that is enough for some people to consider a person, but it does not make a difference, its not up to me, or those other people to make that decision on whether its a group of cells or a person.
I believe until the fetus is separated from her, it is part of her, and I have explained my reasoning for that. But my point still stands, its not up to anyone but the mother to make the choice, saying you cant have an abortion is taking that away from her, no one can make the decision that the baby/fetus is/is not part of her, except her, its subjective, and without being that person you cant make the choice.
I guess i should have said "It is up to the mother whether she thinks the fetus is a part of her (and therefore, her choice to abort/carry), not me, not you, not anyone else."
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
I guess i should have said "It is up to the mother whether she thinks the fetus is a part of her (and therefore, her choice to abort/carry), not me, not you, not anyone else."
No, you should say something along the lines of... "1) A fetus is part of another person and not its own separate person, 2) a person has full rights over all parts of themselves, 3) therefore a person has full rights over their fetus." (I'm only paraphrasing, if that doesn't summarize your argument you can change it as you see fit.) You need to be very clear in your premises (1 & 2), your conclusion (3), and the logical structure used (in this case a simple syllogism). That allows people to actually debate your premises or your logic instead of everyone misunderstanding and getting mad at each other.
Post by
Ksero
it is up to the mother to decide if the fetus is alive or not, therefore it is up to her whether or not she goes forward with an abortion. not me or you.
Science has "proven" both sides of the fetus argument to be "true". For a Pro-life supporter to accept your argument, you would have to extend the "right" of the mother to choose to include killing their child even after birth. That is the stance that is taken by Pro-life supporters, and that is supported by not only their beliefs, but by science as well, that the fetus is a child from as early as conception, and certainly before
23 weeks
gestation.
Your argument, that you seem to think is so right, that anyone that cannot agree with you must be "deluded", is asking people to accept that a mother should have the right to choose to kill their child, inside or outside the womb. To me, that is "deluded".
you do realise that without the extremely advanced medical care that baby got it would have died near instantly? because something can happen doesn't mean its meant to happen.
I guess i should have said "It is up to the mother whether she thinks the fetus is a part of her (and therefore, her choice to abort/carry), not me, not you, not anyone else."
No, you should say something along the lines of... "1) A fetus is part of another person and not its own separate person, 2) a person has full rights over all parts of themselves, 3) therefore a person has full rights over their fetus." (I'm only paraphrasing, if that doesn't summarize your argument you can change it as you see fit.) You need to be very clear in your premises (1 & 2), your conclusion (3), and the logical structure used (in this case a simple syllogism). That allows people to actually debate your premises or your logic instead of everyone misunderstanding and getting mad at each other.
Thanks a bunch, i have a learning disability called disgraphia and part of it makes it near impossible for me to organize my posts in the way you did.
Post by
Gone
You completely missed my point. I'll bold it this time.
Its not up to you to decide if the fetus is a person or not, its not up to me either, its up to the mother.
You say - They cant make they're own choices, I want to control their future
I say - They can make there own choice, its their future, they should have control over it.
If you the cant see the difference then you are seriously deluded.
Holy *!@# you just did it again lol. Your narrow mindedness utter inability to look at things from the opposing side is hilarious.
I'm not saying They can't make their own choices. I'm saying that they can make choices regarding themselves, but
to somebody who considers a fetus as a person then the decision of a third party to abort is not just effecting them. It's not about a personal choice for them, it's about a choice affecting them, and an additional party.
Post by
Eccentrica
... which is legally an additional party once it is capable of surviving OUTSIDE MY BODY. If it can't survive outside my body it is not a person.
Post by
Gone
... which is legally an additional party once it is capable of surviving OUTSIDE MY BODY. If it can't survive outside my body it is not a person.
It's a philosophical/ethical argument, not a legal one. We're not debating what the law says, that's pretty black and white. What we're discussing are people's thoughts and feelings on the morality of abortion.
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