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10.2.5
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10.2.6
Abortion Debate
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Post by
Gone
This statement just isn't right. This sexist notion that only stupid women have unplanned pregnancies and that they should be scorned and punished for that stupidity. Meanwhile the man who was also half of what you're deeming "stupidity" is, at most, forgotten but potentially /highfived by his bros for his awesome fertility and ability to bed women.
Did you see anywhere in her post where she identified the woman as the one being irresponsible? All that she said was that more often than not, unplanned pregnancies that are aborted, occur from a lack of responsibility and having sex without birth control. Nowhere in there did she say that the woman is the one lacking responsibility.
Pregnancy is not the punishment for foolish fun or gay abandon,
no matter what the bible might try to assert.
Are you &*!@ing serious?
Post by
asakawa
This statement just isn't right. This sexist notion that only stupid women have unplanned pregnancies and that they should be scorned and punished for that stupidity. Meanwhile the man who was also half of what you're deeming "stupidity" is, at most, forgotten but potentially /highfived by his bros for his awesome fertility and ability to bed women.
Did you see anywhere in her post where she identified the woman as the one being irresponsible? All that she said was that more often than not, unplanned pregnancies that are aborted, occur from a lack of responsibility and having sex without birth control. Nowhere in there did she say that the woman is the one lacking responsibility.But the woman is the only one that is effectively punished by the pregnancy and that is being promoted as being right or just.
Pregnancy is not the punishment for foolish fun or gay abandon,
no matter what the bible might try to assert.
Are you &*!@ing serious?
As I said, I hadn't intended that to derail but that's how Genesis was taught to me at school and so I really do see teachings like that as a negative societal factor. My main concern is the sexism surrounding peoples' judgements of women who "get themselves pregnant" and I probably should know better than to introduce my tangential views on religious teachings and institutions into this topic - I can get a bit carried away. Please consider the statement withdrawn with regards to this discussion.
Calling the pain of childbirth a punishment is not the same thing as calling pregnancy a punishment.
Correction gratefully accepted, though I don't really see that as a meaningful distinction to my (misplaced) point.(##RESPBREAK##)16##DELIM##asakawa##DELIM##
Post by
Gone
But the woman is the only one that is effectively punished by the pregnancy and that is being promoted as being right or just.
Not necessarily. In my experience men are usually the ones who push for the abortion. What's the old cliche, men fall in love the first time they hold their child, women fall in love the first time they feel the heartbeat? That has varying degrees of truth depending on the situation and the people involved. But women definitely tend to develop more of an attachment to an unborn child than men do. They might be have to sacrifice more in an unwanted pregnancy, but an abortion is also harder on them.
And even in regards to being "punished" that isn't only the case with women. Men can be legally compelled to support a child once it's born. In either case the original comment was about birth control and about unwanted pregnancies being the result of a lack of responsibility, which could have been on either partner. I don't think there was anything inherently sexist about it.
Post by
asakawa
But the woman is the only one that is effectively punished by the pregnancy and that is being promoted as being right or just.
Not necessarily. In my experience men are usually the ones who push for the abortion. What's the old cliche, men fall in love the first time they hold their child, women fall in love the first time they feel the heartbeat? That has varying degrees of truth depending on the situation and the people involved. But women definitely tend to develop more of an attachment to an unborn child than men do. They might be have to sacrifice more in an unwanted pregnancy, but an abortion is also harder on them.
This is not the issue at hand.
And even in regards to being "punished" that isn't only the case with women. Men can be legally compelled to support a child once it's born. In either case the original comment was about birth control and about unwanted pregnancies being the result of a lack of responsibility, which could have been on either partner. I don't think there was anything inherently sexist about it.
If that is the case than you should make that up with taking the responsibility to carry the fetus that your stupidity gave you.Since only women can carry a child, this sentence clearly is directly addressed to women and is not gender-neutral. It was also written in response to a quoted line that directly addressed women.
The suggestion being made is that those foolish enough to get pregnant must go through with a pregnancy as a matter of justice. I'm saying this attitude effectively seeks to punish women and is the result of an overall societal pressure to disparage women for having sex (especially sex for pleasure).
As a man, if I got someone pregnant who was unable to abort the pregnancy I could quite easily sever ties with the woman and avoid taking any responsibility. I would, personally, push for more responsibility to be given to men but, at the end of the day, even if compelled to provide maintenance, that really isn't taking the kind of responsibility that a woman is forced to even if she is only expected to carry the baby to term and give it up.
There is an inherent gender disparity due to the subject and I would just like to see less judgements of women in bad situations and more recognition of their rights over their own bodies. I say this as someone without a firm position on this topic as a whole.
Post by
Gone
This is not the issue at hand.
It goes hand in hand with what you said about women being the ones who are "punished" by unwanted pregnancy.
Since only women can carry a child, this sentence clearly is directly addressed to women and is not gender-neutral. It was also written in response to a quoted line that directly addressed women.
Because it was in response to a comment about women, the response was about women. The issue of responsibility and blame, was not directed solely at women, but at both partners and their choice of birth control.
While that sentence
could
be construed as sexist towards women, I think you're reading too much into it, particularly when considering the source.
Post by
asakawa
This is not the issue at hand.
It goes hand in hand with what you said about women being the ones who are "punished" by unwanted pregnancy.
I don't see the relevance... or, if relevant, I don't see how it supports an opposing position to the one I presented. Men are punished as much as women because... they miss out on the opportunity to love their progeny? I don't get it, though, as ever, I'd be happily willing to accept I'm misunderstanding an otherwise simple concept.
Since only women can carry a child, this sentence clearly is directly addressed to women and is not gender-neutral. It was also written in response to a quoted line that directly addressed women.
Because it was in response to a comment about women, the response was about women. The issue of responsibility and blame, was not directed solely at women, but at both partners and their choice of birth control.
While that sentence
could
be construed as sexist towards women, I think you're reading too much into it, particularly when considering the source.
" taking the responsibility to carry the fetus that your stupidity gave you"
My point isn't that EluraE is sexist, my point is that the societal attitude is that women should not enjoy sex and that those who have unplanned pregnancies only have themselves to blame and should accept a massive change to their entire life due to their own stupidity. The fact that this attitude was being presented like that, in this thread, only strengthens my feeling that there is a severe problem here. Also, even if the same judgement/prejudice is levied at both parties in an unplanned pregnancy (which I don't buy), the effect is still massively punitive to women only. Hence the effect of the attitude is sexist even if those expounding the view aren't.(##RESPBREAK##)16##DELIM##asakawa##DELIM##
Post by
Gone
I don't see the relevance... or, if relevant, I don't see how it supports an opposing position to the one I presented. Men are punished as much as women because... they miss out on the opportunity to love their progeny? I don't get it, though, as ever, I'd be happily willing to accept I'm misunderstanding an otherwise simple concept.
My point is that despite women being more inconvenienced by pregnancy than men, the decision to abort is still, more often than not, harder on them, Which I brought up to support my claim that in my own experience, men are usually the ones pushing to abort an unplanned pregnancy, rather than women.
My point isn't that EluraE is sexist, my point is that the societal attitude is that women should not enjoy sex and that those who have unplanned pregnancies only have themselves to blame and should accept a massive change to their entire life due to their own stupidity. The fact that this attitude was being presented like that, in this thread, only strengthens my feeling that there is a severe problem here. Also, even if the same judgement/prejudice is levied at both parties in an unplanned pregnancy (which I don't buy), the effect is still massively punitive to women only. Hence the effect of the attitude is sexist even if those expounding the view aren't.
That's not what I got from the statement at all. What I got wasn't that 'any woman who has an unplanned pregnancy is stupid and only has herself to blame.' Rather I took it to mean 'some people are irresponsible and stupid and forgo contraception, and when an unplanned pregnancy happens in these cases, the person only has themselves to blame.' Also I believe the main point was that an abortion should never be a decision made lightly, and used as a replacement for birth control, rather it should be a last result when birth control fails you.
Post by
asakawa
My point is that despite women being more inconvenienced by pregnancy than men, the decision to abort is still, more often than not, harder on them, Which I brought up to support my claim that in my own experience, men are usually the ones pushing to abort an unplanned pregnancy, rather than women.
Relative proportions of men and women who would use options like abortions isn't relevant to the discussion of whether women should be restricted from having those options in the first place.
The question at hand is should women have any options once they have conceived (or at some decided upon date thereafter)? It is entirely likely that all possible options are unfavourable but that is beside the point.
That's not what I got from the statement at all. What I got wasn't that 'any woman who has an unplanned pregnancy is stupid and only has herself to blame.' Rather I took it to mean 'some people are irresponsible and stupid and forgo contraception, and when an unplanned pregnancy happens in these cases, the person only has themselves to blame.' Also I believe the main point was that an abortion should never be a decision made lightly, and used as a replacement for birth control, rather it should be a last result when birth control fails you.
What you took it to mean was the same, just softened slightly but that isn't the entirety of what was said since it was also stated that people in that position should
have
to carry the baby to term.
People do make mistakes. Condoms do split, pill regimen can be disrupted by illness or other factors, even vasectomies can fail. Other times people just do something silly in the heat of the moment. Judgements of people in any of those situations don't help solve this difficult subject and babies shouldn't be used as a punishment, even for five minutes of drunken irresponsibility.
Post by
Gone
Relative proportions of men and women who would use options like abortions isn't relevant to the discussion of whether women should be restricted from having those options in the first place.
No, but it was relavent to the original context of whether EluraE was referring just to women, or to men and women both being responsible for an unwanted pregnancy, and your assertion that women are more "punished" by it.
What you took it to mean was the same, just softened slightly but that isn't the entirety of what was said since it was also stated that people in that position should have to carry the baby to term.No it's not. The first thing I said, what you seemed to take it to mean, is that anybody who has an unwanted pregnancy is irresponsible. What I took it to mean, the second thing I said, was that people who forgo birth control and instead rely on an abortion should they wind up getting pregnant, are irresponsible.
Condoms do split, pill regimen can be disrupted by illness or other factors, even vasectomies can fail. Other times people just do something silly in the heat of the moment.There is a very big difference between those two sentences. The first sentence refers to things beyond a person's control. The second one is a result of people being irresponsible. Blaming somebody for the first scenario is unreasonable. Blaming somebody for the second is just calling stupid people what they are. Or at the very least, calling a stupid decision what it is.
Judgements of people in any of those situations don't help solve this difficult subject
Judgments never solve anything. But enforcing an idea of responsibility by saying that abortions should not be used as a go to method of birth control is not the same thing.
Post by
1108744
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
asakawa
Relative proportions of men and women who would use options like abortions isn't relevant to the discussion of whether women should be restricted from having those options in the first place.
No, but it was relavent to the original context of whether EluraE was referring just to women, or to men and women both being responsible for an unwanted pregnancy, and your assertion that women are more "punished" by it.I'm still not understanding how it's relevant but am happy to drop it.
What you took it to mean was the same, just softened slightly but that isn't the entirety of what was said since it was also stated that people in that position should have to carry the baby to term.No it's not. The first thing I said, what you seemed to take it to mean, is that anybody who has an unwanted pregnancy is irresponsible. What I took it to mean, the second thing I said, was that people who forgo birth control and instead rely on an abortion should they wind up getting pregnant, are irresponsible.
Ah, I see the distinction.
The initial comment was in reply to the question "Should a woman be forced to carry and birth a child she doesn't want because her pill didn't work or the condom split?", a direct question about accidental pregnancy in those taking precautions, even if carelessly or improperly taking them.
Condoms do split, pill regimen can be disrupted by illness or other factors, even vasectomies can fail. Other times people just do something silly in the heat of the moment.There is a very big difference between those two sentences. The first sentence refers to things beyond a person's control. The second one is a result of people being irresponsible. Blaming somebody for the first scenario is unreasonable. Blaming somebody for the second is just calling stupid people what they are. Or at the very least, calling a stupid decision what it is.
Judgements of people in any of those situations don't help solve this difficult subject
Judgments never solve anything. But enforcing an idea of responsibility by saying that abortions should not be used as a go to method of birth control is not the same thing.
I'm all for encouraging responsibility, forethought, safety and precautions, I'm in favour of encouraging these things strongly. I'm all for increased education to ensure young men and women are fully aware of how to protect themselves and their partners and the ramifications of failing to do so adequately. Saying to a 16 year old girl who had heard that you don't get pregnant as long as he pulls out in time that she is stupid and that she must now irreparably change the course of her life and carry a baby is, in my humblest, just not right, whatever your views about the morality of abortion. We can surely have more compassion for people who find themselves in tremendously difficult situations than that?
As an aside here, (and perhaps TMI, apologies) I've been sexually active since I was 16. I'm reasonably well educated and had an open upbringing where no subject was taboo, so I am/was pretty well informed about contraception generally. In my 17 years since, there have been many times where, at the end of the month, we're a little concerned that we may have slipped up. There was a moment in University where we were pretty convinced that we were going to have a child and I had started planning how I would have to leave Uni, get a job and so on. These things happen - with perfect use, 2% of condom uses fail to prevent transmission. Actually that number rises to 10-18% in reality as people don't always use them perfectly.
obligatory wiki source
. The idea that careful, responsible people still get pregnant shouldn't be dismissed.
The judgement is severely negative and the use and promotion of a baby as a punishment is just wrong. If someone thinks that sex done carelessly is something to be frowned upon then fair enough, I might even be less sympathetic to someone in that position myself, but that judgement should never be used as a factor in the options available to the people in the situation.
Post by
1108744
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
And what about the repercussions of making abortion illegal? I'm sure many here are familiar with the famous photograph of the young woman with the wire coat hanger lodged within her nether regions. The hanger caused her to bleed to death and it was this very picture that caused the argument to swing towards legalising abortion in the first place.
Abortions are always going to happen. If a woman is refused one because she doesn't 'qualify', I'm sure she would find other ways if she was truly desperate.This argument is pointless. If you really believe that a fetus--at some point in it's development--is a person, then you can't argue that "She would have killed it anyway, so let's make it legal."
One could make the same argument for euthanizing children. "The mother would have killed them anyway, so let's make a painless, safe way for her to do it legally."
If one believes that a fetus is a person, then it is going to take some serious extenuating circumstances to convince one to kill it. "She would have done it anyway" is not one of those reasons.
I don't believe that personhood begins at conception, but I don't know. There is no clear line that defines personhood. I don't think people should be dancing on that invisible line out of nothing more than regretting ones pregnancy. How do you know when you've crossed it?
Post by
Nathanyal
There was an episode of "Through the Wormhole" where they talk about what different scientists consider to be "personhood". The title is "When Does Life Begin" if you care to watch it somewhere.
Here is a small summary of the episode.
We can all trace our lives back to a beginning. But what defines the beginning? Is it the moment when two cells unite? Or does something have to know it is alive before its life can begin? It is a debate scientists and religious leaders have been battling over for centuries, but with the birth of new technology, scientists have been able to probe the question deeper and deeper. There is groundbreaking evidence showing that inside all of us are traces of cells from our relatives, blurring the lines between the beginning of one life and the end of another. Some scientists believe life doesn't truly begin until we are conscious. But when does consciousness begin? One child psychologist's experiments suggest true consciousness may not begin until the age of five once children become aware of how the world perceives them. Does life begin after we are able to walk and talk? The argument extends beyond human life. Technology is giving birth to new life forms made of nonliving things. One computational neuroscientist is building brains for robots. Can a machine become alive if it can think, feel, and move on its own? Perhaps the only way to know when life begins is by going back to the beginning of life on earth 4 billion years ago. How did non-living chemicals first become alive? And could Earth still give birth to a new life-form: one comprised of all of humanity in a globally connected network.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
For something that's supposedly about science, that's a pretty abstract and hypothetical summary that really doesn't say anything meaningful. But I guess I wouldn't expect much else from a science tv show.
Post by
Nathanyal
I probably shouldn't have said summary, that was more of the introduction to the episode. If I can find a proper summary I'll post it.
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
1108744
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
I think Ryjacork spelled it out fairly well here:
This topic has been debated ad nauseum, and in the end it comes down to one thing, which is what stage people consider a fetus a person at. For those who believe life starts at conception, abortion will never be acceptable, for those who don't believe a fetus is a person, anti abortion laws deprive them of a fundamental right.
I'm fairly certain that existing pro-abortion and anti-abortion members of the forum agree on this in general. The fact of the matter is, if there is no objective way to draw a line between 'personhood' and 'a bunch of cells', then there is no objective way to define whether abortion is murder or not.
If you disagree with me (as someone who is pro-choice, rather than pro-abortion), then please answer this question - at what point would you consider the line is crossed, and that 'abortion' is no longer a valid option? There is a vast difference between an 'eight week bundle of cells', and a 'three year old child', the primary one being that the three year old child isn't inside a womb. Where is that point at which you would consider it no longer abortion, but murder or otherwise?
Edit: I'd also like to point out that Skreeran, whom you have accused of being pro-life, is perfectly fine with
abortion before 20 weeks
.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##
Post by
asakawa
If that is the case than you should make that up with taking the responsibility to carry the fetus that your stupidity gave you. And then give it up for adoption.
This statement just isn't right. This sexist notion that only stupid women have unplanned pregnancies and that they should be scorned and punished for that stupidity. Meanwhile the man who was also half of what you're deeming "stupidity" is, at most, forgotten but potentially /highfived by his bros for his awesome fertility and ability to bed women.
Unplanned and inconvenient pregnancies do happen to intelligent
and
contraceptively careful people. Pregnancy is not the punishment for foolish fun or gay abandon, no matter what the bible might try to assert. The sexism that you're perpetuating is, I think, a major issue. Opinions on abortion aside, we should not be labelling and judging pregnant women in this way.
Whatever one might decide about the rights of the zygote/foetus/baby the woman does also have rights including, I think, not being subject to prejudice and discrimination.
Grasping at straws much? Women (and trans men)are the only ones who CAN carry children, ofcn men have to take responsibility too but i dont think that equals abortion, there is support in finance, physical and mental support, if the baby is not put up for adoption then the man had responsability as a parent. Abortion should not be s solution for irresponsibility. And i clearly said i was referring to lack of birth control based on stupidity, not all unplanned pregnancies. Learn to read. Oh and to clarify my opinion more, i always think a womans life and health comes before the fetus, but if neither of those are at risk i do not believe anyone has a right to kill anything because you were too lazy to use a condom. Yes it affects women more, but thats bioligy, %^&* off with your accusing of sexism. And pregnancy is not a punishment, why are so many pro abortion people do convinced it is?
I'm actually not pro-abortion and It was you who framed the resulting pregnancy as a justified repercussion for foolishness (or punishment) while I'm trying to argue the opposite. I'm also not accusing you of
being
sexist but I am suggesting that you expounded an essentially sexist notion and thereby perpetuated it. This was clarified, I think, later in the conversation that followed the quoted post.
It
is
biology and perhaps biology is at the core of the sexism surrounding peoples' attitude to women who "get themselves pregnant" but society clearly blames them, scorns them and then seeks to force life-changing decisions upon them. I'm just saying that I don't think that reaction is good(/positive/righteous etc.) and I'm not really trying to make a greater point than that.(##RESPBREAK##)16##DELIM##asakawa##DELIM##
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