This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.5
PTR
10.2.6
Thrall vs Garrosh
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
Adamsm
Hey, I love Midnighter, espically his teamups with Grifter and Bat's, those were awsome.
Post by
taurenmoo812
Hey, I love Midnighter, espically his teamups with Grifter and Bat's, those were awsome.
Me too, I admire the fact he has the self made title of 'worlds biggest bastard' for a reason.
Anyway, I'll not derail from the topic no more.
Post by
Rankkor
thanks for apreciating my review of wow's leadership.
it really is a shame that the best humans on the game are not oficially part of the alliance.
after all, Tirion Fordring is as cool and good as it can get, but he's with the argent crusade.
Jaina Proudmoore is alliance friendly, and horde hostlile ONLY ON THE GAME, on lore the republic of theramoore is neutral towards the horde, they have a treaty of non-agression, and she's very fond of thrall, regarding him as a friend.
but even when she's more alliance inclined than tirion, her ultimate loyalty is to the kirin tor.
Ronin is also another good example of humanity, but sadly he's not a part of the alliance either, he's with the kirin tor.
and last but not least, Malfurion Stormrage has been missing since the start of wow, and even if he returns, he's more likely to be affiliated to the cenarion circle than the alliance, he's the closest equivalent of thrall avaliable to the night elves.
and since he's gonna be on the ragnaros raid, that makes him neutral, and interactible by both factions :S
I stand with my coment, thrall is not just the best faction leader I've ever seen, as far as ficticional videogame characters goes, he's the greatest one on the world.
with solid snake being number 2.
and the third one being Sarah Kerrigan (can't wait to see her on starcraft II, ALL HAIL THE QUEEN OF BLADES)
Post by
taurenmoo812
Haha, I like the solid snake comparison, although snake was a loner by all standards, he is up there with being one of the most popular video game heroes. And like I say, Thrall really does count as the face of what warcraft is about.
And you also make some solid points about human figures in warcraft, it seems a running theme that the smart humans are not affiliated with the grand alliance in any big way, but rather show a neutral side rather then being part of Varian Wrynns mentality.
Ones like Jaina, Rhonin, Malfurion are examples of being beyond this stupid war. Likewise, someone like Brann Bronzebeard also showed he doesn't care for this war between sides anymore, and just wants to be a seeker of knowledge, and gladly will work with the horde as he would the alliance.
I think most of these characters would sooner distance themselves from the grand alliance's war with the horde then be part of it.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
thanks for apreciating my review of wow's leadership.
it really is a shame that the best humans on the game are not oficially part of the alliance.
after all, Tirion Fordring is as cool and good as it can get, but he's with the argent crusade.
Jaina Proudmoore is alliance friendly, and horde hostlile ONLY ON THE GAME, on lore the republic of theramoore is neutral towards the horde, they have a treaty of non-agression, and she's very fond of thrall, regarding him as a friend.
but even when she's more alliance inclined than tirion, her ultimate loyalty is to the kirin tor.
Ronin is also another good example of humanity, but sadly he's not a part of the alliance either, he's with the kirin tor.
and last but not least, Malfurion Stormrage has been missing since the start of wow, and even if he returns, he's more likely to be affiliated to the cenarion circle than the alliance, he's the closest equivalent of thrall avaliable to the night elves.
and since he's gonna be on the ragnaros raid, that makes him neutral, and interactible by both factions :S
I stand with my coment, thrall is not just the best faction leader I've ever seen, as far as ficticional videogame characters goes, he's the greatest one on the world.
with solid snake being number 2.
and the third one being Sarah Kerrigan (can't wait to see her on starcraft II, ALL HAIL THE QUEEN OF BLADES)
Tirion says at the end of Oh Blood and Honor that he will be part of the Alliance untill his dying day, even with the exile.
Jaina is not part of the Kirin Tor, or at least its yet to be said. Theramore is a Alliance city.
I think Rhoion is.... lore-wise... but he is still a mary sue.....
And finally, under Catalsym characters for wowwiki, he will be assissting the Alliance
ok. one thing is what tirion has said at the end of the novel "of blood and honor" but things have changed, tirion does NOT shares the alliance point of view. why not? because he was loyal to the alliance of LORDAERON! wich is NOT the same alliance shown today.
he's loyal to his own organization, why? because the alliance is hostile to the horde, and he's not, heck he has orcs, tauren, trolls, blood elves, and even forsaken in his ranks .
for every intent and purpuse both in gameplay and lore, tirion is NOT part of the alliance, at all.
if he were, he would show suport to the alliance by being hostile to the horde.
and now part B
Jaina IS a part of the kirin tor, where the hell did u think she learned the arcane arts? she was a resident of dalaran since she was born, and she only left dalaran because medivh told her to go to the west kalimdor, do your research.
the only reason Theramoore is an alliance town is for gameplay reasons, but on lore, the republic of theramoore IS neutral to the horde, they have a treaty of non-agression, after all, thrall invaded theramoore when jaina's father took it over, and after admiral proudmoore was slain, thrall let jaina and her forces live, and on lore they even have an economic (but not military) relationship.
she is more alliance inclined than tirion (in the sence that she is willing to give military aid to the alliance if needed) but her ultimate loyalty is to dalaran and the kirin tor.
ask yourself this: if she was a loyal member of the alliance, why did she teleported Varian the aryan outside of Undercity when he atacked thrall? isn't that considered treason?, furthermore, why varian the aryan didn't punished her for her acts?.
the reason is this: because she's not a full-sized member of the alliance, and thus she owns nothing to varian, and B varian didn't punised her because she isnt't under his command, after all the republic of theramoore, was a part of the alliance OF LORDAERON, wich is diferent from today's alliance.
Rhonin has NEVER EVER EVER been a part of the alliance, he's a member of the kirin tor, and dalaran has allways been under scrying eyes for the time they were members of the allaince of lordaeron, they were treated with hostility and suspicion because they were mages, wich is the reason thety dind't rejoined the alliance after they finished rebuilding their town if u don't believe me then read the book "day of the dragon".
Rhonin is now the leader of the counsil of Six, wich is a neutral council of the most powerfull mages of azeroth, and it's composed of races of the alliance and the horde. (indeed, on dalaran u can see many blood-elves as members of the kirin tor, and a few trolls)
there is jsut no way in hell Rhonin would obey varian, why not? because varian is the leader of the alliance, and dalaran is NOT a part of the alliance.
after the third war, when the alliance of lordaeron was disolved, so was disolved dalaran's membership with it.
they now believe in balance above all things, since the main principles of the kirin tor is research, not war, they don't want to get dragged into a war with the horde, as it is they only fight the war agaisnt malygos because they have no other choise.
the only kirin tor mages that are hostile to the horde are the ones in silverpine forest and alterac mountains and again that's for gameplay reasons, in lore they are neutral.
is like the grimtotem taurens, on lore they would never atack another tauren, but on the game for gameplay reasons they are hostile to everyone.
and finnaly Malfurion: he's gonna be a part of a raid instance, I dunno if u checked, but instance characters are neutral, that's the reason thrall is friendly to members of the alliance who fight on the escape from durnhold or the battle for hyjal.
besides, Malfurion is the head of the Cenarion Circle, again do your research, he's not gonna be wielding the colors of the alliance, since he believes that war only brings stife and death to the land, and druids believe above all things is balance and peace.
thats the reason all the cenarion circle bases are neutral.
before u berate someone else, do your research.
HAHAHAHA, ok Mr. Varianwrynnmustbeburned, what ever you say... *rolls eyes*
if u don't have any good valid argument to wield against what's being debated, or if u don't have anything constructive to say then spare us your satire.
it only makes a fool of yourself
Post by
Adamsm
and finnaly Malfurion: he's gonna be a part of a raid instance, I dunno if u checked, but instance characters are neutral, that's the reason thrall is friendly to members of the alliance who fight on the escape from durnhold or the battle for hyjal.
besides, Malfurion is the head of the Cenarion Circle, again do your research, he's not gonna be wielding the colors of the alliance, since he believes that war only brings stife and death to the land, and druids believe above all things is balance and peace.
thats the reason all the cenarion circle bases are neutral.
Actually he isn't. Technically Malfurion is the leader of the Night Elves, with Tyrande(his wife) leading the Sentinels and the Priest castes, and Staghelm leading the Druidic circle. Staghelm is the actual leader of the Cenarion Circle, he has been since the War of the Shifting Sands. Malfurion is an Alliance member, he will always be an Alliance member, but with one of the larger threats of Cataclysm being the Elemental Lords attacking the World Tree, he'll be more focused on that then war between Alliance and Horde, espically if Thrall is there with him, fighting back Ragnaros and his forces.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
Jaina might not be because im not sure if she rejoined or not after its defeat by the scourge
well I am, and the main proof is the article on her and on theramoore on
www.wowwiki.com
And again, saying Jaina and Theramore are neutral is like saying Orgrimmar and Thrall are. War is not always a must. Its not treason, and mabye Varian respects her ideas. Threre is a reason why they go to the same places together. They are both leaders of the Alliance.
not it's not the same, thrall and ogrimar represent 80% of the orcs of azeroth, and they are part of the horde.
jaina and theramoore are just a small province on kalimdor, with a few volunteers from all the corners of the former alliance of lordaeron.
Jaina goes to the same places as varian, but not because she's serving her leader, is because she represents the link from dalaran to the alliance. just as Aethas Sunreaver, is the liasion of dalaran wiht the horde.
why then isns't a blood elf from the sunreavers following thrall?.
well blizz tought that each leader should have a sidekick, and at least 1 should be agressive, and 1 should be peacefull
Thrall=peacefull.
his sidekick? Garrosh=agressive.
Varian=agressive
his sidekick? Jaina=peacefull.
she don't wanna leave varian's side because she knows that if varian isnt' hold in check, he's gonna end up doing something stupid, like at the dalaran summit.
both thrall and jaina want that something like that NEVER EVER happens again.
wich is why each of them is doing all they can to hold back their respective jerk.
but take my word buddy, if she was a full-time member of the alliance, she would suport the ongoing war against the horde, and she would had helped varian figth against thrall on the undercity isntead of teleporting him out.
Depatable, but Rhonin was said to be, and the Dragonmaw clan was part of the Horde back then. He even goes with Alliance members like Falstad and Verresa, and at the Alliance's command.
I rarely find Kirin Tor members who are not Human or High elven...
Rhonin does not take orders from Varian because the Alliance does not run like the Horde does.
again you seem to be confusing races with factions, wich are NOT the same thing.
there are many many many MANY humans who are not a part of the alliance, a few examples are: The Defias brotherhood. the Syndicate, The scarlet crusade, the expedition of nesinwary, the kirin tor, the argent dawn, the argent crusade, and many many more.
Ronin was never a part of the alliance, he was a member of dalaran, and he was sent by KRASUS to free alextraza, not the alliance comand.
and since dalaran has strong ties to the elves, they asked for vereesa to be his guide. and as for falstad, he's a wildhammer dwarf everyone who knows abit of lore knows that the wildhammer dwarves in lore are not directly related with the alliance, and on day of the dragon there are shown direct hostilitys between the ironforge dwarfs (who are members of the alliance) and falstad (wildhammer dwarf who is not a member)
just becuse u see a human doesn't mean u see a member of the alliance, because race alone doesn't dictate wich faction u belong to.
after all varian's girlfriend is a blood elf xD that's enough to rest my case.
and like I said the kirin tor are not the only humans who are not part of the alliance.
jsut cuz u see a high-elf or a human here and there doesn't mean u can safely go to them and say hi, tehy could be members of the shadow council, or the twilight hammer, or the burning legion
as for the dragonmaw, I think u're confusing the old horde with the new horde.
dude let's make a few points clear.
on lore there are 2 alliances, and several hordes.
Alliance 1: aka Alliance of lordaeron, this was composed of the 7 human nations only, exclusively humans, and later on added the gnomes and dwarves and high-elves. this one was dissolved after the third war, when almsot all the human nations were destroyed, and the high-elves became the blood elves and separated from them. their leader was King Terenas Menethil II
Alliance 2: the curent one, conformed of humans, draenei, night elves, dwarves and gnomes. founded 4 years after the third war, this new alliance is directed by Varian (previously it prety much lacked leadership at all. each race had their leader,but no global leader for all 5)
and as for the horde.
Horde 1: AKA Old horde. this one was the evil one, they invaded azeroth, they drank the demon blood, became strong but slaves too, did unspeakable things, and ultimately were defeated because of internal strifes from within.
they were lead by Ogrim Doomhammer, and Gul'dan.
(the dragonmaw clan belonged to this horde)
Dark Horde: the clans that didn't wanted to follow thrall and his new way of peace and shamanism, those who wanted to wield the dark power and figtht for war and nothing more allied with nefarian, these poor bastars who are little more than a few clanns with less than 1000 members are led by Rend Blackhand.
Fel horde, these are the orcs in outland that were modified by Illidan Stormrage, these are poor mag'har orcs (brown orcs) who are kidnapped, and forced to drink the blood of maghteridon to become the red monsters they are. these are led by Bladefist. and Illidan himself.
and finnaly, the New horde: composed of all the orc members who wanted to redeem themselves from their past, and regain their freedom from their darkness from within, these are led by the greatest figure in azeroth: Thrall, also known on his orc name as Go'el.
so, don't make the mistake of thinking that the current dragonmaw orcs present on the game are in any way afiliated with the new horde, those are members of the dark horde.
Post by
Skreeran
I'm fairly certain that while Jaina is in fact a member of the Kirin Tor, her loyalty is to her people, the people of Theramore, which at this point is only tangentally related to the primary Alliance. To quote Wowwiki:
Also, diplomatic relationship between the humans on Kalimdor and their brethren in the Eastern Kingdoms — especially the people of Stormwind, whose leadership wants to challenge Theramore on its new role as the Alliance's capital — have been getting worse in the past, with each side accusing the other of fatal mistakes during the last war. While the people of Theramore hold a grudge against their relatives for triggering the Horde's counterattack on the city, the humans on the other side of the ocean feel they have a right to get more support from Theramore.
I imagine now it has taken on city-state status, like Kul Tiras or Dalaran.
Post by
Rankkor
I'm fairly certain that while Jaina is in fact a member of the Kirin Tor, her loyalty is to her people, the people of Theramore, which at this point is only tangentally related to the primary Alliance. To quote Wowwiki:
Also, diplomatic relationship between the humans on Kalimdor and their brethren in the Eastern Kingdoms — especially the people of Stormwind, whose leadership wants to challenge Theramore on its new role as the Alliance's capital — have been getting worse in the past, with each side accusing the other of fatal mistakes during the last war. While the people of Theramore hold a grudge against their relatives for triggering the Horde's counterattack on the city, the humans on the other side of the ocean feel they have a right to get more support from Theramore.
I imagine now it has taken on city-state status, like Kul Tiras or Dalaran.
I cound't had said it better myself :P
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
I don't think Varian is right, because he thinks it acceptable to kill thousands of orcs because of their race.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
I don't think Varian is right, because he thinks it acceptable to kill thousands of orcs because of their race.
Well, i have no idea where you guys are getting "Genocide" from. He wants to simply disband the horde. I really want your response from Sylvanas wanting to eliminate the human race, Skreeran.1. I always got the idea that Varian wants to kill all the Orcs. King Varian Wrynn says: What our world could be without you and your twisted Horde... It ends now, Warchief.
And then there's Justin Bartlett...
Even if he only means to "disband" it, how does he plan to do that? That's going to involve a lot of killing.
2. I've addressed my thoughts on Sylvanas on numerous occasions...
Here's my most recent one, only a page back on this same thread:
By the way, I didn't see your quote, hymer, until now, and so pardon my delayed response:
As far as I can tell, the Forsaken Blight has two purposes:
1. Destroying the Scourge:
This one is obvious. It's meant to be used on Scourge to get revenge on the Lich King. Pretty clear cut.
2. Killing living things is also an effect:
We know this is true, but what the argument is about is "for what purpose?" Alliance fans are quick to jump up and say "Sylvanas wants to destroy all living!" but I don't think that's true. It may have been true at one point, but I doubt it's true now.
Take, for example, the Blood Elves...
I haven't lost any love for my homeland or its people, as you know. I've fought tooth and nail for Silvermoon to be allowed a place beside Undercity and Orgrimmar at the negotiating table.
Now... She wouldn't kill them unless she had some sort of sick plans to bring them into the fray with her. But the Forsaken Blight does not reanimate.
Nor does Sylvanas ever show any twinge of disloyalty to the Horde, actively calling Thrall Warchief and meeting with him in Orgrimmar. So either she keeps her intent to betray them a very well kept secret (so secret, in fact, that not even Forsaken players get the sense that she plans to betray them), or she doesn't plan to betray them, which seems more likely.
So it comes down to: Does Sylvanas plan on using it on the Alliance?
I think the answer is: Kinda.
She certainly wouldn't hesitate to use it on the Scarlet Crusade, or the Alliance, should the Alliance attack Forsaken territory. But would she actively and aggressively attack the Alliance?
I don't think so.
That would most likely be considered a betrayal of the Horde, if they were at peace with the Alliance, and logistically she's not capable of fighting off the Horde and Alliance, and I doubt she would try after seeing how much the Forsaken need the Horde after te Battle of Undercity.
Now, if the Alliance and Horde were at war... Well...
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
Well, the Forsaken is what Sylvanas calls her people, but that's also what they call themselves. That's their race, as far as they're concerned.
Besides, if Themraplugg nuked the Dwarves and said "For Gnomeregan!" would that mean that Mekkatorque is at fault?
And killing Thrall is not a wise way to disband the Horde. Quite the contrary. That's like saying that killing Lothar is a good way to disband the Alliance. If Thrall died (through assassination or open combat), it would send the Horde over the edge. They'd instantly be at the gates of Stormwind, and they wouldn't stop until the people that killed him were dead.
As for Rise of the Lich King, let me get that down... I need to check it for Varian's responses to intermentship anyway, might as well check Sylvanas' part as well...
Edit: You're right about Sylvanas. She did think that, but I stand by my previous statement that 1. She doesn't intend to kill all living, and 2. She wouldn't attack the humans unprovoked as long as Thrall is Warchief. He could kick her ass.
Edit: As for Varian, in RotLK at least, I don't see anything about him supporting the Camps. As a matter of fact, when he sees Doomhammer taken prisoner:
The war eventually did end, and the Alliance was triumphant. The leader of the Horde, the once-mighty Orgrim Doomhammer, had been brought back to Capital City in chains. It had made a big impression on both Arthas and Varian, to see the powerful orc paraded through the streets of Lordaeron. Turalyon, the young paladin lieutenant who had defeated Doomhammer after the orc had slain the noble Anduin Lothar, had shown mercy in choosing to spare the beast; Terenas, who was at heart a kindly man, continued in this fashion by forbidding attacks on the creature. Jeers, boos, yes--seeing the orc who had terrorized them for so long now powerless, an object of scorn and derision, heartened morale. But Orgrim Doomhammer would not be harmed while in his care.
It was the only time Arthas had seen Varian's face ugly with hate, and he supposed he could not blame the other boy. If orcs had murdered Terenas and Uther, he supposed he'd want to spit on the ugly green things too. "He should be killed," Varian growled, his eyes angry as they watched from the parapets as Doomhammer was marched toward the palace. "And I wish I could be the one to do it."
"He's going to the Undercity," said Arthas. The ancients royal crypts, dungeons, sewers, and twining alleys below the palace had somehow gotten that nickname, as if the place was simply another destination. Dark, dank, filthy, the Undercity was intended only for prisoners or the dead, but the poorest of the poor in the land somehow always seemed to find their way in. If one was homeless, it was better than freezing in the elements, and if one needed something . . . not entirely legal, even Arthas understood that that was where you went to get it. Now and then the guards would go down and make a sweep of the place in a desperate and ultimately futile attempt to clean it out.
"No one ever gets out from the Undercity," Arthas reassured his friend. "He'll die in captivity."
"Too good for him," Varian said. "Turalyon should have killed him when he had the chance."
That's the extent of what I remember Varian talking about the Orcs and their punishment in RotLK. If anyone knows another place, please, give me the page number.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
Themarplugg does not say that, he says "Gnomeregan is mine!"
I really have no idea what for SURE would happen, but seeing as how metzen said the horde would collapse without Thrall's guide, and go back to demon ways along with falling apart, it seems like it would work... not saying its the right thing to do.
There is not a single human in RotH as far as im aware of, i think i found it out in Lands of Conflicts or somthing like that.I'm saying: What if he did? In his eyes, "For Gnomeregan!" is a good cry, because as far as he's concerned, he own it. But that doesn't mean it's Mekkatorque's fault, even if he did.
And yes, I know that killing Thrall wouldn't just make the Horde go "Oh no? What do we do! I guess we'll just sit down and give up."
Saurfang and Nazgrel and Drek'thar would quickly take up the head of the "get revenge movement" while Garrosh would take up the reins of the "See? The humans can't be trusted! They must all die for what they've done!" movement.
And I meant RotLK, not RotH, sorry... :P Posted my thoughts above.
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.