This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
Beta
So,SoC is still considered inferior for Ret?
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
444492
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
blademeld
Regarding Seal of Vengeance: are you on cap or over cap for expertise? If you are, the Glyph will not increase DPS.
Righteousness:
~3000 AP with a 3.5 speed weapon will give you 370 damage per hit with SoR, glyphed and specced, it will go up to 468 damage per hit
Command
~3000 AP with an ilevel 219 (since you said your gear averaged 213/226) 3.5 speed weapon will give you 484-591 damage per hit
Vengeance
~3000 AP with an ilevel 219 (since you said your gear averaged 213/226) 3.5 speed weapon will give you 444-541 damage per hit + DoT that deals 434 damage every 3 seconds
edit: this is before Seals of the Pure, so * 115%
In 3.2 I did this test on my ret paladin, and the results were consistant with the theorycraft numbers. I say that your test was biased.
Post by
blademeld
From Elitist Jerks:
Seal of Vengeance/Seal of Corruption
SoV replaces blood (which has been removed from the game) as our primary dps seal. SoV is the biggest reason that STR is our best dps stat, because it is one of the few skills in the game that triple dip on a stat (once for AP, once for SP, once for AP affecting weapon damage). In case the wording on the skill is unclear, SoV has 2 parts to it - the DoT, and the proc. The proc is basically a weaker, modified Seal of Blood proc but without the recoil. The talent SotP increases the damage from the DoT and the proc (which results in a total dps increase of about 6.5%). It takes
~12 seconds in a raid buffed setting to get a 5 stack active.
SoV has some odd functionality detailed below:
Updated: On multiple paladins and SoV usage - SoV's proc damage appears to be based on the lowest current stack number. In other words if your stack is at 5, but another ret or prot paladin just starts his up, your SoV procs will do damage as if you were restarting your stack. This has the unfortunate effect of making ret and prot fight for stack count while ramping up, causing temporary dps/tps loss. JoV has the opposite problem, in that it uses the highest available stack for damage calculations...
Seal of Righteousness
We haven't used this seal since we were leveling up, and it sickens me to say that it is now an option to use. This seal cannot crit, but also cannot miss or be dodged/parried (unless your white swing or special misses).
With 5/5 SotP, SoR averages about 100 dps higher than SoC until you are in Ilvl 250+ gear. Unlike SoV or SoC, judging SoR triggers an SoR proc.
Seal of Command
This is a pvp seal. SoC has been retooled again; it is no longer ppm based, rather it triggers on every attack (like blood used to) and has no ICD. Judging is no longer a guaranteed crit vs stunned targets. SoC procs are still capable of criticals and follow all the standard melee attack rules.
SoC pulls ahead of SoR only when fighting 3+ mobs that only live for 12s each.
Post by
444492
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Synectics
Keep It Simple Silly.
Fight under 15 seconds (soloing) = SoR
Fight over 15 seconds (raid encounters) = SoV
Fight with multiple mobs (trash pulls) = SoC
IMO next patch will make it much more clear-cut as to which seal to use in which situation.
...even before that it puts a nice fight without having to spend 5 valuable points in seals of the pure...
Don't forget that SotP also affects SoV damage -- not just SoR. It will make a huge difference in your boss DPS.
Post by
blademeld
So,what i'm reading here is that SoC eventually outdoes the other seals when you get the late game items(250)
No, just SoR.
SoV does the most damage if you can keep up 5 stacks.
Period.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
So,what i'm reading here is that SoC eventually outdoes the other seals when you get the late game items(250),and even before that it puts a nice fight without having to spend 5 valuable points in seals of the pure...
You need SotP for SoV, unless you only ever plan on killing trash.
Post by
444492
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Quest
No amount of words will make soc not suck. just stop. wait for 3.2.2.
I need sleep. zzz
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
But since you can only really get 5 stacks on bosses,it means use SoV for bosses(that allow it),and SoC everywhere else,am i right?And it saves you 5 points from seals of the pure as well that can be used for utility,a nice way since the "SoC is unplayable trash" imo.
Seals of the Pure
: Increases the damage done by your Seal of Righteousness,
Seal of Vengeance
and
Seal of Corruption
and their Judgement effects by 15%.
Why is God's name wouldn't you take SotP?
Post by
Synectics
And it saves you 5 points from seals of the pure as well that can be used for utility,a nice way since the "SoC is unplayable trash" imo.
/facepalm
Let's review:
Don't forget that SotP also affects SoV damage -- not just SoR. It will make a huge difference in your boss DPS.
You need SotP for SoV, unless you only ever plan on killing trash.
Seals of the Pure
: Increases the damage done by your Seal of Righteousness,
Seal of Vengeance
and
Seal of Corruption
and their Judgement effects by 15%.
Post by
Squishalot
I haven't respec'd since the patch came out, and yes, it's hurting my DPS. Fairly significantly.
Just a note - the reason SoC is better than SoR at 3+ mobs is because you get more procs from Divine Storm, so the bigger seal proc weighting is higher, compared to the lower damage judgement.
Anyway, the theorycrafting is sound. The results in real life back it up.
SoC: 579-700 on hit,and 704-768 on judgement.Applies to every attack.
SoR: 381 on hit,and 992 on judgement.Applies to every attack,and procs on judgement.
SoV: 484 on hit over 15 seconds,and 691 on judgement up to +50%.
And finally another big difference,beside the better overall damage on its own,the free 5 points saved from seals of the pure,is that Seal of Comman CAN and will crit VERY often for 2x damage,making it definitely the best burst seal when the CS+DS chain comes,making some really nasty spikes.
Crit rates on SoC are exactly the same as your ordinary crit rates anyway. It can provide nice burst, yes.
Consider SoC vs SoR:
Over 16 seconds: 1.6 Divine Storms, 5 auto attacks, 3 Crusader Strikes, 2 Judgements.
SoR: 9.6 procs, plus 2 judgements+procs
SoC: 9.6 procs, plus 2 judgements
SoV: 9.6 procs, plus 2 judgements
SoR: (381 * 9.6 + (992 + 381) * 2) * 1.15 * 1.1 = 8,101 damage
SoC: 640 * 9.6 + 736 * 2 = 7,616 damage
SoV: (484 * 9.6 + (691 * 1.5) * 2 + 434 * 5.33) * 1.15 + 10,387 damage
Yes, we're assuming that you will be talented and glyphed (which I'm assuming that you're not at the moment). But for a raid DPS spec, if you want to do your best DPS, then the numbers speak for themselves, even with a high crit rate. Having a Glyph of SoV will also mean that you don't need to gear for Expertise (not that you should be anyway), thus increasing your DPS elsewhere too.
Once you agree that SoV is better for the bosses, then you can include 5/5 SotP into your trash seal calculations, which pushes SoR ahead of SoC.
Post by
JemiS
That spec just hurts.
It is a pure PvP spec, and I would never use it in PvE.
You don't have 2 major DPS talents from Ret.... You're missing Swift Retribution and Righteous Vengeance, and you took Toughness for.... improved armor?
Ret is a DPS spec. Plain and simple.
If you are killing heroic bosses in less than 15 seconds, you need to move to something more challenging.
If you are taking longer than 15 sec, than you are doing worse DPS with SoC than SoV.
Post by
Quest
But since you can only really get 5 stacks on bosses,it means use SoV for bosses(that allow it),and SoC everywhere else,am i right?And it saves you 5 points from seals of the pure as well that can be used for utility,a nice way since the "SoC is unplayable trash" imo.
Seal of Righteousness
We haven't used this seal since we were leveling up, and it sickens me to say that it is now an option to use. This seal cannot crit, but also cannot miss or be dodged/parried (unless your white swing or special misses).
With 5/5 SotP, SoR averages about 100 dps higher
than SoC
until you are in Ilvl 250+ gear. Unlike SoV or SoC, judging SoR triggers an SoR proc.
.................
But since you can only really get 5 stacks on bosses,it means use SoV for bosses(that allow it),and SoC everywhere else,am i right?
Seal of Righteousness
With 5/5 SotP, SoR averages about 100 dps higher
than SoC
......
SoV for bosses(that allow it),and SoC everywhere else,am i right?
100 dps higher than SoC
....cough....
right?
higher than SoC
NO MAN! NOT RIGHT! 100 > 0 BRO! SRSLY NOW. SoC critz alot? Great. If by alot you mean your crit rating! Also, SoC can miss/be dodged/parried
separately
from what its procing off of. That means whatever your miss/expertise you still need to make up % wise, double that number and thats how often SoC will not do jack. SoR does not have that issue.
For me attacking the boss attack dummy, over 2 min with only might and the seal on me for buffs I do the following;
SoC: 2000 dps
SoR: 2150 dps
SoV: 2750 dps
Same setup over 6 seconds (burst)
SoC: 4000 dps
SoV: 3000 dps
SoR: 6500 dps
SoC is bad until 3.2.2. Its great for leveling, but its always been. If you want burst damage go SoR.
One last thing; those 5 last points you mention are so valuable because... wait for it... YOU CAN PUT THEM IN SOTP.
Post by
322291
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.