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Varian Thread
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Post by
451455
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Post by
389776
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Post by
451455
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Post by
389776
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Post by
hymer
Thank you HiV0LT4G3.
I personally would say that Jaina is a better field commander. I mean, you can't compare the scales of Hyjal to Undercity. By any means.
Having fought at Mt. Hyjal does not in itself make you a great commander. To put a fine point on it: Tirion Fordring wasn't there, but I'm sure a couple of peons survived. Are these peons greater commanders than Tirion Fordring?
Another point is this: Mt. Hyjal was a very anomalous battle. Archimonde's juggernaught presence made it a lot different from most fights; it was purely defensive stalling on the part of the allies. Any wisdom taken from this field may prove quite false under different circumstances.
Finally, though Jaina was there, who is to say she performed as a tactical commander? I never saw any evidence of it at any rate. It seemed more like she was there as the figurehead leader, the one who could decide to put her people in the breach, but leaving it to others, more competent, to command them once they were there. That'd be the player.
Although, I think both working together would be best for the Alliance, rather than working against eachother. The Alliance doesn't have a united front, which is more likely to cause dissention in the ranks.
You are so lucky! I can't find anything about any of the other leaders expressing a shred of a thought about what Varian's doing! Share, please!
Varian is just too hot headed, I think. Which is why he's not really fit to lead Stormwind atm.
Of course, you're entitled to your opinion. :)
The alliance however, is different. They are not like one huge faction lead by one person, for all there alliances, they remain as separate bodies to each other with there independant leader. The
Only
person who has brought these factions together for one greater purpose for there own survival, was Jaina, when leading them in the battle of mount Hyjal.
I may have just woken up and be a little rattled, but: Four factions fought at Mt. Hyjal. What is today Theramore under Jaina. The Horde under Thrall. The Night Elves under Malfurion. These three groups fought the Scourge under Archimonde.
To say that the Alliance was gathered here is not correct, and so is it to say that Jaina commanded them.
The rest of your analysis I can understand, and the differences between the two factions are as you say.
Now, all of a sudden, Varian Wrynn steps into the story, and automaticly many people of the alliance assume, because of his attitude towards the horde, that he must be there equivalent of there warchief, that he is there to lead them in the same way Thrall leads the horde..
Where are you getting this from? It's so frustrating you know all these things, and I can't find them anywhere.
Post by
Septimus
Lordaeron means everything from wetlands to ghostlands.
Wrong.
As you may or may not know, Eastern Kingdoms is made up of three continents..
Lordaeron
,
Khaz Modan
and
Azeroth
.
As much as the first map may like to contradict, Wetlands is actuall part of Khaz Modan. Just had to point that out.
Post by
451455
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Post by
451455
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Post by
Adamsm
Lordaeron is part of the Seven Kingdoms: Gilneas, Stromguarde, Alterac, Kul Tiras, Lordaeron, Arathor and Dalaran. Lordareon isn't like Stormwind, with Stormwind City the capital of Azeroth. Azeroth spans from Westfall to Blasted lands, Duskwood to Redridge.
Searing Gorge and Burning Steppes are part of the Dwarven Kingdoms, as the Dark Iron rule both those locations, until the coming of Ragnaros. The Ironforge dwarves hold from Iron Forge and Dun Morogh to Khaz Modan in the Wetlands, and Loch Modan. With the Wildhammer Dwarves holding the Hinterlands and of course a part of Shadowmoon Valley.
The Elf lands of Quel'danas are the Isle, Silvermoon, Eversong Woods, the Ghostlands, and parts of Eastern Plaguelands.
Post by
Patty
You are so lucky! I can't find anything about any of the other leaders expressing a shred of a thought about what Varian's doing! Share, please!My point is there's no evidence to suggest anyone backs up Varian over Jaina. There is evidence that the Alliance is split, look at Theramore and Stormwind's relationship.
I am just theorising, but Velen wanted to join the Alliance because they fought the Burning Legion at Hyjal. Who was incharge of the Alliance forces there? Jaina. The Night Elves were not part of the Alliance until afterwards.
It is obvious there is no united front in the Alliance. You'd have to be blind to miss the flaws.
Post by
hymer
My point is there's no evidence to suggest anyone backs up Varian over Jaina. There is evidence that the Alliance is split, look at Theramore and Stormwind's relationship.
There's no evidence to the contrary, either. While I agree that Jaina and Varian see things differently, I think they accept the other's role. I see no place where one badmouths the other, quite the contrary. They seem quite at ease in each other's company, unless Thrall or Garrosh is also there.
If you want to call it a 'split', okay. I'd use 'disagreement'. But the Horde is not the sole reason for the continued existence of the Alliance.
I am just theorising, but Velen wanted to join the Alliance because they fought the Burning Legion at Hyjal. Who was incharge of the Alliance forces there? Jaina. The Night Elves were not part of the Alliance until afterwards.
Sounds fine with me. I hope Velen didn't think the Night Elf role was insignificant (and they are
now
part of the Alliance and look to remain so), or that it didn't matter that a lot of other Alliance people bled against Archimonde.
It is obvious there is no united front in the Alliance. You'd have to be blind to miss the flaws.
There is certainly a united front against the Legion, against the Lich King, against the Naga. I wonder how the other leaders feel about Garrosh being in charge? I don't think the 'split' is as deep as you think, and aggressive moves from the orcs will cause the peace faction to lose backup for a while. But again, there are no places to find out for sure, because we have no material to go on.
Post by
Adamsm
The Horde and Alliance are different: In the Horde, the "strongest" rules them all, has been since the war on Draenor.
But the Alliance is just that; a group of people (or races in this case), working together to deal with threats that want to destroy the world. Yes, right now, Theramore and Stormwind could be considered Eastern and Western Alliance... except that's not true, it Eastern and Western Humans, as Theramore and Stormwind aren't the only leaders out there. The Dwarves are willing to work well with anyone who assists them with what their doing, the Night Elves are slowly getting over their Xenophobia, and the Draenei are doing what they've always done; acted like the older siblings for the lesser evolved races.
Post by
451455
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Post by
Arkham
Lordaeron means everything from wetlands to ghostlands.
Wrong.
As you may or may not know, Eastern Kingdoms is made up of three continents..
Lordaeron
,
Khaz Modan
and
Azeroth
.
As much as the first map may like to contradict, Wetlands is actuall part of Khaz Modan. Just had to point that out.I believe he meant Lordaeron is (in a north-south orientation) everything
between
those two locations he mentioned. Which would be correct, though perhaps not phrased in the best way.
Post by
hymer
Stop dreaming about this bull. The sooner you stop, the sooner we dont have to listen to you talk;
Will you please treat your fellow debaters with respect?
We all know that Jaina would sooner kill her own people before she would
dream
of killing a orc.
Your sarcasm isn't helping the debate. Your tone and your attitude are also hindering dialogue and causing division.
Post by
Adamsm
We all know that Jaina would sooner kill her own people before she would dream of killing a orc. Jaina is not the only reason Dreanei joined the Alliance, she is one of many. I think the main one was the Alliance worshipping the light.Cool it on the nerdrage, she would never kill her own people, she kept them alive when her revenge crazed father showed up to re-start a war that had been dead and over with for almost a decade. And seeing as the first human settlement the Draenei would have met would have been the Theramore group, I think they made friends there long before the ambassador showed up in Stormwind.
And again, the Draenei are not against the Orcs, they've accepted what happened, and are moving past it. They know the Orc's are needed for the Army of Light, just like the Taurens, Trolls and Blood Elves will be, seeing as they have been fighting the same Fel Orcs, Undead, and Demons that the Alliance has.
Post by
229054
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Post by
46491
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Post by
Skreeran
All right... Finally got to get on the computer...
Here's my opinions:
Gilneas vs. Forsaken:
1. Forsaken want the land. They don't want to be sitting right next to another potential enemy. That's the same reason they clash with Southshore. Purely tactical. The humans are the same way. Neither side is really wrong here.
2. The Forsaken don't particularly care if these Worgen are the same or different than the Worgen they've been fighting for years. Heck, we, the players, don't really know if they've changed. The Alliance took them in because they were fighting the Forsaken, but we don't know if they're actually "good" or not, and we won't until Cataclysm Beta comes out. Personally, I hope they're a dark faction, to mirror the Horde's Forsaken.
3. And most importantly, the Forsaken are still more than a little miffed for the Gilneans withdrawing support from Lordaeron when the Scourge attacked. The humans (now the Forsaken) needed help, badly, and the Gilneans just hid behind their wall.
Alright, next...
Theramore vs. Stormwind:
If Varian declares war on Theramore, he's going to make a
lot
of people angry. Kul Tiras, for one. Tandred Proudmoore is Jaina's sister, and he wouldn't like Stormwind attacking her.
Then there's Dalaran. Jaina is well-known and respected as Antonidas' apprentice, and Dalaran, being a neutral city, would not like her being attacked for her neutrality. It's possible that they could withdraw support from their mages.
Tirion Fordring would certainly understand it. A human being branded a traitor for seeing good in the orcs? He'd probably be willing to talk to Varian about it. He certainly wouldn't like it.
As for leadership, I see Varian as a better General and Jaina as a better diplomat. Varian's certainly got the combat leadership, but he doesn't seem to listen to any advisors (at least, I've never seen him listening to one in the comics or other resources) and he seems to lack to subtlety needed for a diplomat or politician.
And Velen does
not
hate the orcs. I cannot overstate this.
To quote RotH:
The only flicker of hope for the eventual redemption of the Horde lay in the single clan who had not drunk the blood, had not made the pact, whose hearts and minds were still their own.
Velen also knew that Durotan, the leader of the Frostwolf clan (the one mentioned there, of course), was a good person. Now that Durotan's son now leads the redeemed Horde, I'm sure Velen has forgiven them.
Post by
229054
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