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Varian Thread
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Post by
Adamsm
I know it's a bit of a necro, after it finally fell off the board, but I've had a bit of a thought about both Varian and Garrosh:
Varian works, and Garrosh doesn't.
For all that people say that Varian is a one dimensional character, he's actually not. I mean, you have just as many haters of Varian as you do lovers; I myself am a fence sitter for him, I love what Varian could become, he has such potentional to be a great leader, equal to Terenas, Lothar and his father. But he needs to get over his hatred of the Orc's before that point, and until he does, he's only going to be seen as a warmongering hypocritc xenophob. It's strange, because you do see some haters saying that there is some good in the Human King, and there are those in the "We love Varian" club who also see there is some darkness in their hero. Blizzard created him perfectly, a way to split the populace of Warcraft, because unlike the other leaders, even Sylvanas, are all... too perfect; Tyrande is the voice of Elune, Malfurion is the all powerful Druid, Thrall is the perfect commander, Sylvanas is the anti-hero you love to hate her, Cairne is the ancient elder, and so on and so forth. But Varian has flaws, and rooting or booing him is actually fun, because you can see your own flaws or good aspects in him.
Then you have Garrosh... who like I said, doesn't work. He is literally one dimensional, you know there is no chance at him ever changing, that he will always be this idiot that people will either remember as the emo leader of the Mag'har, or the pyscho who challenged Thrall as a Lich King invasion was beginning, and the moron who couldn't hold his tongue or his weapons and attacked another Leader on Neutral Ground (and yes I know he was provoked to a point but you see what I'm saying). You don't see Garrosh lovers, you just see haters, people who want him dead.
So, it's a thing to consider; Blizzard actually has a point for creating Varian like they did, and maybe if they would have put at least a little effort into Garrosh, he could have been different as well, and maybe have as many fanboys as Varian does.
Note; at this point and time, when I use the terms of both Fanboys and Haters, I am not using it in a malicious or vicious way, merely showing how it looks. If I have offended anyone... too bad heh.
Post by
437763
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
HiVolt
Why is he portrayed more muscular than a Draenei, Tauren and Orc put together in the comics? o_O
Because they're comics, and that's the way it's supposed to be, silly. Just like all females are supposed to be perfectly sculpted goddesses.
Edit:
And I want to say, that with a little more delving into Garrosh's psyche, he may actually become less one-dimensional. And the cool thing about it is, he could go either way. He could actually be thinking that what he is doing is a tribute of sorts to his father, or he could just be power-hungry. In either situation, it would make him much easier to tolerate, and perhaps even give him some fanboys. Right now, all we see is the nonsensical warmonger, because we don't know what drives him. If we knew that, we'd be able to understand why he does the things he does.
Post by
Adamsm
Just like all females are supposed to be perfectly sculpted goddesses.Aye, depending on the picture, the new Garona is pretty hot.... and Proudmoore walks around with her Ta-Ta's hanging out more or less heh.
Post by
437763
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
hymer
A little bit of sanity, long looked for. Thanks Adamsm. :)
Blizzard has long been doing a lot of 'pride goeth before the fall' themes. This has annoyed me to some degree in the past. I
like
pride. I'd rather have stood my ground with the Protoss on Aiur, rather than flee ("We will overcome the entirety of the Swarm with the might and the fury that is our heritage!" quoted from memory). My hat is off to the barbarians of Mt. Arreat.
As such, I'm not all that annoyed at Garrosh, just because he is proud of being an Orc and his father's son. I like it that he's stubborn. What makes me pull back a bit from Garrosh are the consequences of his actions. Thrall looks bad. Jaina looks bad. Even Rhonin looks bad with Garrosh around. I don't much like that. As for peace, well, I never had any hope for that, so he's not ruining it for me there.
But to the subject of the Thread: I completely agree with your characterization of what Blizz has done with Varian. They've made a guy you can follow, or hate, hate, hate. In this respect, he is possibly the most succesful character in WoW. The major problem with Thrall is that you don't much want to oppose him personally. And yet about half of the players are encouraged to go and kill him at their earliest possible convenience.
The thing is, you have to switch off a lot of knowledge when you're playing Alliance, and focus on other parts. Don't think of Mt. Hyjal too much. Don't think of redemption. Think of Doomhammer's armour. Think of bloodlust and the destruction of cities. Think of experiments in Undercity.
With Varian, this is much easier. Blizz gives us a version of the truth our characters can believe in with Varian's narrative. From the other perspective, they give us someone who embodies human hatred and can easily be said to support genocide or the murder of children.
Post by
Rankkor
humm you do have a point adamns.
as far as thrall goes, all of the horde loves him, heck most of the alliance loves him (I'm talking about us the players, the people behind the screen).
as far as garrosh goes, EVERYONE hates him, I may even dare to say that we horde loyalists hate garrosh MORE than the alliance fans do, because he reflects a bad image of us.
as far as other leaders or lore characters go is the same rule, either
A: everyone loves them or
B: everyone hates them.
varian however fits on the same ranks as Illidan, and even arthas.
because some people love them, and some hate them.
on the alliance side, I've seen players express how they hate varian, and seen players express how much they like him.
on the horde varian has less suporters, but to a certain degree a bit of tolerance (I've said so myself, I don't want varian to be killed, just to stop acting like a bigot and a warmonger, but up to a point I do agree with very specifics points of view on his side, such as his hate for garona)
Illidan being a neutral figure, I've seen so many players express how awesome and badass he is, and a fair amount of plp expressing how pathetic and stupid he is.
is sad that this perfect balance of love/hate is so rarely seen in figures on the game.
then again, Thrall and Jaina are for me the best warcraft has to offer, I kept playing just because of them (I dislike RPG's , I liked warcraft more as a strategy game, but joined the MMO to keep seeing in action both thrall and jaina) so I can't just hate either of htem, nor even concieve any dislike towards either of them
Post by
taurenmoo812
humm you do have a point adamns.
as far as thrall goes, all of the horde loves him, heck most of the alliance loves him (I'm talking about us the players, the people behind the screen).
as far as garrosh goes, EVERYONE hates him, I may even dare to say that we horde loyalists hate garrosh MORE than the alliance fans do, because he reflects a bad image of us.
as far as other leaders or lore characters go is the same rule, either
A: everyone loves them or
B: everyone hates them.
varian however fits on the same ranks as Illidan, and even arthas.
because some people love them, and some hate them.
on the alliance side, I've seen players express how they hate varian, and seen players express how much they like him.
on the horde varian has less suporters, but to a certain degree a bit of tolerance (I've said so myself, I don't want varian to be killed, just to stop acting like a bigot and a warmonger, but up to a point I do agree with very specifics points of view on his side, such as his hate for garona)
Illidan being a neutral figure, I've seen so many players express how awesome and badass he is, and a fair amount of plp expressing how pathetic and stupid he is.
is sad that this perfect balance of love/hate is so rarely seen in figures on the game.
then again, Thrall and Jaina are for me the best warcraft has to offer, I kept playing just because of them (I dislike RPG's , I liked warcraft more as a strategy game, but joined the MMO to keep seeing in action both thrall and jaina) so I can't just hate either of htem, nor even concieve any dislike towards either of them
This sets the bar for the characters in question doesn't it.
With Varian, theres a mixed reaction to him on either side, most of the horde hate him, and about half the alliance like him, well the other half hate him or dislike his methods.
Then theres Thrall. The horde, as you say, love him. And even alliance players look at him with respect, and the rest just see him as a boss to kill for a bear mount.
So in that regard, Thrall is still holding as a greater leader in terms of how people people admire him.
(And urm Dark, just to clarify, 'everyone' isn't a cryptic message for 'just you')
Post by
Skreeran
I don't like Varian. He wants to kill or enslave Kitanga, Nakresh, and Themra. I just find that messed up. I find it even more messed up that some people believe he's right about that.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
He is a hypocritc, his son, his friends; Jaina Veleera Broll and other's; tell him over and over that it's not the Horde it's someone else, but he refuses to listen, even though he says he will. Again, that is the way Blizzard currently has him set up, so until he is fixed, and stops being such a PITA rage-a-holic warmonger, I'll continue my fence sitting, and hope that the Le'gosh I saw in the first 9 issues of the comic will eventually shine through and kick the other personality to the curb.
Post by
taurenmoo812
Why is he portrayed more muscular than a Draenei, Tauren and Orc put together in the comics? o_O
And where has the forsakens secret stash of steroid injections disappeared to since wotlk?
He is a hypocritc, his son, his friends; Jaina Veleera Broll and other's; tell him over and over that it's not the Horde it's someone else, but he refuses to listen, even though he says he will. Again, that is the way Blizzard currently has him set up, so until he is fixed, and stops being such a PITA rage-a-holic warmonger, I'll continue my fence sitting, and hope that the Le'gosh I saw in the first 9 issues of the comic will eventually shine through and kick the other personality to the curb.
Several dozen people with a higher sense of moral code can't convince one short sighted rageaholic, anymore then a dozen posters with common sense convince a varian fanboy the truth about there beloved ruler.
Post by
Rankkor
well, partially true, I mean, varian ignores EVERYONE exept his son.
I do believe varian can be fixed to stop being the genocidal bigot warmonger he is.
his son is the cure, the few moments and laps of reason varian has had are all because of his son.
he really is the only one who can make varian "snap out of it" and use the head instead of the chin to think.
I have extremely high hopes for that kiddo, not only for "fixing" his father ,but also for when he becomes a king too.
heck he was able to controll the super-rageaholic garrosh O_O and without using threat or brute strenght but pure logic, a logic so perfect even garrosh cound't counter it.
that alone is a formidable feat for a simple 13-year-old-boy
and BWT on the plp's size and shape on the comics:
I already stated that on the comics orcs are depicted way more muscular than they actually are, what's worst their heads are depicted TIIIIIIINY by contrast, all female are well sculptured voluptous women, and all the men are too perfect to be true.
they really gotta work on that, since fat plp do exist, old plp do exist, flaws do exist.
and varian isn't really depicted as big as thrall, it's his armor wich has been drawn to exagerated proportions, when varian was without his king armor, he was just about the same as any other human, after he got his current king armor, he's as big as any other orc, probably more than most orcs actually.
last but not least, the orcs tusks are drawn way too large on the comics, :S
Post by
Adamsm
I already stated that on the comics orcs are depicted way more muscular than they actually are, what's worst their heads are depicted TIIIIIIINY by contrast, all female are well sculptured voluptous women, and all the men are too perfect to be true.
Garona isn't, but she's still hot for a half-breed. But then again, I think she's always been attractive as it's..... implied, there's something between her and khadgar when he's "young" during The Last Guardian.
Post by
Skreeran
I already stated that on the comics orcs are depicted way more muscular than they actually are, what's worst their heads are depicted TIIIIIIINY by contrast, all female are well sculptured voluptous women, and all the men are too perfect to be true.
Garona isn't, but she's still hot for a half-breed. But then again, I think she's always been attractive as it's..... implied, there's something between her and khadgar when he's "young" during The Last Guardian.Well, apparently there was something between her and Khadgar's teacher as well...
Boink chicka donk donk
Post by
Adamsm
Well yeah..... otherwise your favorite Sue wouldn't be around.... Long Live Med'an! Heh. I know you hate him, but he has such potential, not to mention I'd like them to expand on the friendship between him and Anduin, might help to temper his father more so.
Post by
Rankkor
Well yeah..... otherwise your favorite Sue wouldn't be around.... Long Live Med'an! Heh. I know you hate him, but he has such potential, not to mention I'd like them to expand on the friendship between him and Anduin, might help to temper his father more so.
it would help more if anduin fell in love with a young orc girl, but sadly no notable young orc female exists in lore.
I'm angry at blizz for that, I mean on all the races u got lots of noticeable males and females, but not on the orcs, or tauren, or trolls.
as far as
humans
goes, u got noticeable males and females galore, a few examples are:
Male : varian, Trion, Ronin, Tyralion, Lothar, and an exetera so large it would take 20 pages.
Female: jaina, aegwynn, taretha, katrana (yhea she was a dragon, but her disguise was human) and briggite abendis
Dwarves
: the bronzebeard brothers, thaurisian, vandar stormpike and kurdran wildhammer, and a few more.
dwarf females: too few, there's moira and modgud and I can't really recall anyone else.
Gnomes
: non-existant, no noticeable famous male or female, unless you wanna pretend frodo and sam are gnomes and in wow. only noticeable gnome i can think of is Gelbin (yhea LOL that's the name of the gnome king xD)
NIght-elves
: Another prize-winning race as far as famous members are.
male: malfurion and Illidan, then there's broll, Fandral, Jarod, and more.
Females: Maiev, Tyrande, naisha, shandris, and so many more.
Draenei
:
Males:there's Velen, nobundo, and Akama.
Females: too few, only Iridi, Ishanah, and the little girl from the children's week doorna.
as you can see, on the alliance, while the humans and night elves get plenty of peeps both male and female, the dwarves, gnomes and draenei have too few famous females :S
you think that's unfair? it gets worst on the horde.
Blood-elves
: our most enriched race, with the most famous (or infamous) figures.
Males: there's Kael'tas, Dath'remar, and aethas sunreaver.
Females: there's Liandrin and valeera are fair choises.
trolls
: these got boned, hardly any famous darkspear trolls exist at all, only 3 if any
Males: vol'jin, sen'jin, and rokhan, and that's about it.
Females: is like they don't exist.
Tauren
: another one that got the short end of the stick.
Males: only cairne, his son, and hamuul, and that's about it.
Females, only magatha, and still, her role is really minor, and almost non-existant.
Forsaken
: well these got the same deal, on lore pretty much sylvannas is the only notable forsaken, the rest hardly play any role on the major events.
Orcs
: while we got many famous male orcs, ther are almost no orc females =(
Males: (I'm mentioning all the famous and infamous) Thrall, saurfang, hellscream, drek'tar, durotan, and an excetera as long as that of the human males.
Female: =( none, garona is a half-breed, and other than her, there is no other famous (and still living) famous orc woman or female on lore.
bottom line of this huge chunk'o info is this.
blizz focuses WAAAAAY too much on the male characters, giving little or no emphasys to the women.
other than the human and night-elves who have many important women, the other 8 races have so little important women that is ridiculus.
blizz needs to learn the lesson and add more important lore females for all races, speccialy the tauren trolls and orcs, whic are the races with the lowest amount of famous females ever.
gender equality FTW.
Post by
Skreeran
That's just how fantasy literature works, it seems. I mean, in Lord of the Rings, there were no females in the Fellowship, and Arwen, Galadriel and Eowynn were practically the only women in the book.
I could see them easily pulling an orc girl out of thin air for Anduin, though. As long as she's not a sue from thin air like Med'an or Rhonin.
Post by
437763
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
That's just how fantasy literature works, it seems. I mean, in Lord of the Rings, there were no females in the Fellowship, and Arwen, Galadriel and Eowynn were practically the only women in the book.
I could see them easily pulling an orc girl out of thin air for Anduin, though. As long as she's not a sue from thin air like Med'an or Rhonin.
Imagine if Garrosh had a daughter. o.OLol, talk about irony.
Or Saurfang the Young Female, daughter of Saurfang the Younger.
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