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Varian Thread
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Post by
Adamsm
He did not intend to kill Sylvanas, there is no evindence pointing to this.
Have you played it recently? He was plotting her death from their first encounter.
And its not just Hyjal, what about the heros of the Beyond the Dark Portal senerio? If it was not for them, Ner'zhul would have destroyed Azeroth and all of Dreanor.Ner'zhul was running away, trying to find a safe place for the remains of the orc race.... he only came to Azeroth to get the items needed for the portal. Yes they attacked against the Expeditation, and the war continued but still.......
Seeing as how Blightcaller murdered several SI:7 troops for just being human...So we kill him for being Undead?(that works both ways after all)
Post by
taurenmoo812
And its not just Hyjal, what about the heros of the Beyond the Dark Portal senerio? If it was not for them, Ner'zhul would have destroyed Azeroth and all of Dreanor.
Those heroes you mean who, for the ones who we know there fate of, have made realive peace with the horde, like khadgar, or Brann Bronzebeard (he was in the match to the dark portal)?
And then we have the Scourge, somthing Varian is helping in the final battle.
And the horde is fighting them too, whats your point there?
Also - Scourge = Arthas. Arthas is in control and not Ner'zhul now, Arthas being a once human prince, not so noble now.
Post by
Skreeran
I dont see how Varian would know any of that stuff, seeing as how this was the first time they made contact.But it's not! The Alliance has known about Alexstrasza since the Second War! Rhonin saved her, the Night Elves were blessed by her, and the Human loremasters should know all about her. It's not like this is her first appearance.
I take that back, he probobly knows what they, seeing as how he knew who Rhonin was, despite never meeting him, Varian does have a dreanei essismary right next to him after all. But I do not recall him meeting A'dal, let alone any narru.But unless he was absolutely in the dark about the entire Outland campaign, he should know about Shattrath, and that it wasn't Alliance only. He's not going to anyone to ask for advice, at all! Even if Velen hasn't made the trip to come to Stormwind to give his input on Alliance foreign policy, Varian should still give him a say in the Alliance's ruling.
... OR, mabye Varian is not going to let Rhonin tell him what to do? Mabye Varian can make a wise desision, and that he knows what he is doing?Because Dalaran was such a huge failure. All because of those evil orcs that were let in.
This does not conceren Tirion, he is exiled, he and Varian are old friends, not commrades on the same team. If Varian works together with the Horde one more time, then all that will do is bring up more soldiers that had to die because somthing always seems to go wrong when he works with the Horde.He's not exiled anymore. He's the leader of the Silver Hand, and now the Argent Crusade. He's deinitely not an exile.
And I don't see how working together will causing more deaths than fighting.
If it's Alliance and Horde vs. Scourge, and the Horde hurts part of the Alliance, the Alliance ends up losing soliders indeed. But if it's Alliance vs. Horde vs. Scourge, the Alliance STILL loses forces, but the Scourge can bowl over both even easier.
I am not Blizzard, don't ask me questions you know I can not answer. I have no idea what he is going to do to kids, but he is perfectly right in saying the Horde has gone unchecked for to long. I can not belive the Horde is trying to assassinate the Prince of Stromgarde and act like it is no big deal.Well, I don't like his style of "keeping the Horde in check." He doesn't seem like a person that would spare the orcish race. Why should I (as an orc) trust him at all? Why should I believe he wouldn't just kill me and imprison my wife and kids like the animals he says we are?
This war that he wants to fight is just going to get more people hurt.
He's not sending an emmisary to Thrall saying "your people murdered the prince of Stromgarde in Arathi, bring those responsible to justice or I will have to do it myself."
He's saying "the Horde have done these wrong things to us. Let's go take their lands and disband their organization."
He wants a war. And that war will hurt innocent people. More innocent people than are currently at risk of being hurt.
I would think that after how much he has lost to the Horde, both past and present, this is the right thing. Two failed peace meeting where you almost lose you life each time not enough? What about losing you father, or your hero? Or mabye the man who watched over your son? Is that enough? And dont say somthing like "Noes, dat was da olde Hordes", the Horde is the Horde, a new name does not erase the past.But new generations do. Has he considered the possiblity that perhaps the people his age who he is fighting WERE ALSO CHILDREN WHEN HIS FATHER WAS KILLED?
Here's what the New Horde has (actually) done to him.
1. Enslave him.
2. Not keep a close enough eye on Putress/Varimathras
And he's going to kill thousands of people over that.
Dont start this bull again about comparing Sylvanas to Varian, elves owe thier existance to humans, wheres humans dont to orcs.
Sylvanas has met several good humans in life, Blightcaller much?
in lifeEvery human she's met as a Forsaken has wanted her dead, including Garithos. What reason does she have to trust them?
And I can not belive youof al people are trying to label Varian as a human superemist, what do you mean by "If only one race can exist" being used with Varian?That's what he seems to believe with orcs. What our world could be without you and your twisted Horde... It ends now, Warchief.
He doesn't want us to exist anymore, at least not on this world, and I doubt has a massive offworld exodus in mind when he said that. Hence the whole "it ends now" thing.
Varian is in no way, shape or form a puppet, mabye Garrosh, but not Varian.
This is exactley the person to lead the Alliance we need, wheather you will ever learn or not. The Horde assassinated the prince of Stromgarde by orders from Vol'Jin, Thrall's right hand man, and if that is not a good reason to declare war, then... cant even think of somthing to say right now.HA!
He was Onyxia's puppet first.
Then he was C'thun/Cho'gall's puppet (distrupted peace meeting, much?)
And not allying with the Horde is EXACTLY what Yogg-saron, the Lich King, the Burning Legion, and Deathwing want.
And I don't see how a warmonger is what the Alliance needs. I thought they were sick of people dying by now. The Horde (the real Horde, under Thrall, Saurfang, and similar minded individuals) is certainly tired of it.
Again, to quote Thrall:
"How easily the mind can be turned to hate from a place of fear - an instinctive, natural, protective response. Instead of focusing on the things that unite us, we focus on what divides us."
"I can only pray to the ancestors that I am never placed in the same position as my father—torn between what I know in my heart is right and the defense of my people. It is why I continue to strive to uphold the tenuous peace between us and the Alliance. Because few offenses and insults in this or any other world are sufficient to warrant the slaughter of children."
Compare that to Varian's:
I've waited a long time for this, Thrall. For every time I was thrown into one of your damned arenas... for every time I killed a green-skinned aberration like you... I could only think of one thing. What our world could be without you and your twisted Horde... It ends now, Warchief.
Now you tell me who is the kinder leader, or more concerned with life?
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Because if it was not for humans, she would have never gotten Undercity back?... Or Undercity in the first place?And it was a human who killed her in the first place.... vicious cycle isn't it?
Post by
Skreeran
All she did was tell him somthing at the end of Wrathgate, nothing else.So you're saying that if he is not told something directly by someone, he doesn't even count their existance?
Alexstrasza trusts the Horde. He should factor her wisdom into his decisions, instead of just maknig decision based on his own experiences.
I... ok, this is getting stupied, Varian has never met a Narru, so its impossible to ignore one.He know they exist. He knows they trust the Horde, despite their flaws. He knows they are religious figures in draenei culture, and yet he doesn't believe for a second that they might be onto something in trusting the Horde.
Mabye its because he keeps losing more and more soldiers every time he works with the Horde.And fighting the Horde will make him stop losing soldiers? That makes no sense.
Stop saying Varian should take huge measures for somthing that you would never do. You keep on saying he should not go to war because it will get people hurt, but in truth, you are saying he should not go to war because its better that just the Alliance suffers instead of both fractions suffering. The Horde gets away with everything, its about time someone fights back... Heh, its funny that Galen gets assassinated, kind of like Llane...The Horde doesn't "get away with everything."
This is how I see it.
As it stands, few people are getting hurt. There is a tenuous peace. By delivering soldiers on a small scale to Warsong Gulch, or Arathi Highlands, he can fight back on a small scale to keep Alliance citizens safe, while still keeping the peace.
In a real war, like the one he wants, he goes on the offensive, actively going out to purge the Horde from this world.
In doing this, not only are innocent Horde citizens getting hurt, but now even more of his own people are getting hurt.
You forgot Galen.What does Galen have to do with Varian?
And again, a new name does not erase the past, and thier can not be a new generation if there is nothing "new" about it.Ummm... You do know what "generation" means, right? An orc Varian's age has nothing to do with the actions of the Old Horde.
Because if it was not for humans, she would have never gotten Undercity back?... Or Undercity in the first place?Garithos wanted her dead. Varian wants her dead. She's just returning the sentiment.
Perhaps by that he meant when he said "it ends now" he meant the murder of innocence is done, and now they have to deal with someone fighting back.Perhaps. Or perhaps he meant "Our world would be so much better without your people here. The afforementioned you and the afforementioned Horde end now, Warchief."
He was Onyxia's puppet when she tore part of him open... for working with the Horde.He was her puppet way before then. Remember, it was her that didn't want him to meet with the Horde in the first place, and he almost agreed.
And what does the Horde have to do with Katrana's treachery? 0.o
You have clearly not been playing your human paladin much, you sound completely blind on the Alliance's POV.Ho, no, no. Bolvar was great. A reserved leader that thinks with his head instead of his juevos. Velen is a great leader, a wise leader who doesn't descend into hatred and obsession with revenge.
My paladin believes that the Horde can be good. He doesn't want any more people to die that don't have to, on either the Alliance or Horde.
Again, if all that ever happens when you work if the Horde is murdrer and betrayal, then MAYBE Varian is acting in his people's interest, MABYE he is sick of having to lose lives to the Horde because Thrall does not care enough to tell the Warsong clan to stop harvesting lumber, or the only time he seems to care about keeping a eye on RAS is when it starts to effect not just the Alliance, but the Horde to.The only thing that happens when you work with the Horde is murder and betrayal.
HAR HAR HAR
That actually made me chuckle slightly.
May I remind you of the Mount Hyjal? The Might of Kalimdor? The Battle for the Portal? The Sunwell? The Argent Crusade? The Cenarion Circle? The Earthen Ring?
Those were obviously all RANK with murder and betrayal, since both the Horde and Alliance tried to work together.
Oh wait...
You know, maybe it's in his people's best interest for us not to be FIGHTING ON THE FRICKING STEPS OF THE LICH KING'S THRONE.
I doubt Saurfang started that one...
Post by
Rankkor
And dont say somthing like "Noes, dat was da olde Hordes", the Horde is the Horde, a new name does not erase the past
how about 20 years in jail? plus slavery? regular daylie beatings, torture, and other forms of abuse? would that be good enough?
the old horde did horrible things, but they paid for it, most of the old horde is dead, those that survived were in jail longer than nelson mandela, and the new horde has never harmed varian in any way.
first peace meating, went wrong for the defias.
second peace meeting went wrong for yogg-saron.
wrathgate happened due to the burning legion, and the horde lost just as much (actually we lost more) than the alliance did, after all the alliance lost just a few soldiers and a great hero, the horde lost a few soldiers, a great hero, and quite a lot of civilians in the undercity, not to mention the renegage forsaken who separated from the horde, all in all the wrathgate was a legion-planned atack, and one that costed more to the horde than it did to the alliance.
also dude, I ask you this.
what do the old-gods+black dragonflight want? humans and orcs, hating each other, that is what they planned in theramoore.
what did varian did? just what the old gods wanted in the first place.
dodge that.
Mabye its because he keeps losing more and more soldiers
EVERY
time he works with the Horde.
I believe that you believe that what happened at the wrathgate is what will happen every time the horde and alliance work togheter, that every time that the horde works with the alliance, the alliance gets betrayed and alliance soldiers die, but you are wrong.
the horde and alliance have worked togheter in the past, and nothing bad happened to the alliance, they worked togheter in mount hyjal, they worked togheter the opening of the dark portal, they worked togheter in the an'quiraj wars, to this day horde and alliance soldiers togheter still maintain the dark portal safe from the legion, they worked togheter both against the black temple and the sunwell, and they worked togheter in northrend up untill the warthgate wich is when the crap hit the fan.
that's 7 major conflicts in wich the alliance and horde have joined hands, and how many times did things went south?
1, that's right, that's 1 lost, and 6 wins.
it doesn't take a genius.
also as I said before, the horde lost more in the wrathgate than the alliance, and the whole backstab was made by the burning legion, and while is true that the forsaken let to this to happen, they paid the price for it, in case u didn't know over 40% of the population in the undercity died, and those that remain are under house-arrest efective imidietly by the kor'kron.
so no, he doesn't keep loosing more and more soldiers every time he works with the horde, he has only worked with the horde once, but the other times the alliance has worked with the horde in the past nothing bad happened, and for the billion time, THE 2 PEACE MEETINGS AT THERAMOORE DIDN'T WENT WRONG BECAUSE OF THE HORDE! stop pinning that on us, the first time it was the defias and naga and black dragons, the second time it was the crazy nut-jobs of the twilight hammer, and he KNOWS this, but plays dumb.
Post by
taurenmoo812
He was Onyxia's puppet when she tore part of him open... for working with the Horde.
So after first saying Varians isn't a puppet.. you then come back and say he is/was one?
Again, if all that ever happens when you work if the Horde is murdrer and betrayal, then MAYBE Varian is acting in his people's interest, MABYE he is sick of having to lose lives to the Horde because Thrall does not care enough to tell the Warsong clan to stop harvesting lumber, or the only time he seems to care about keeping a eye on RAS is when it starts to effect not just the Alliance, but the Horde to.
And isn't that the most amusing thing. At the theramore meeting there was a chance fo finally settle theses discrepancies with an offering on both sides, and one that would have lead to stopping the warsong clan from taking lumber, and other hostile actions between both sides... but when it came to it, Varian accusing the horde of being the ones responsible for Garona's attempted murder of him, it was
him
that cut the thread.
A true leader would have sort to look at the bigger picture, and notice that it was the twilight hammer that were responsible.. but because Varian is nothing but a puppet, he fell for Cho'gall's manipulation.
Post by
taurenmoo812
And dont say somthing like "Noes, dat was da olde Hordes", the Horde is the Horde, a new name does not erase the past
So by your definition then, the child of a known mass murderer is as much to fault as what his parent did? How about the children of nazi's who were only born at the time of hitlers campaign, are they as likely to be as evil and cruel as there parents?
Such a weak statement you made there.
Post by
Adamsm
Hm, something about our favorite racist Human Garithos:
Garithos - Held the dark knight class in The Frozen Throne. Strangely he has a generic mix of abilities from the Paladin, Tauren Chieftain, and Mountain King hero units. The use of a paladin spell perhaps suggests the traditional D&D background for a dark knight of being a fallen paladin. Fallen Paladin eh..... guess he's not all that great even before he tries to betray his allies(both the Blood Elves and the Forsaken).
Post by
46491
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
And we know what happened from there - Garithos helped kick the scourge out of Capital City, and Sylvanas promptly turned him into ghoul chow.
Now, I'm having a hard time finding the part where Garithos "wanted Sylvanas dead from the start" and where he "betrayed the Forsaken". Is there some other source where this is stated?Oh please... He sent Kael'thas on a suicide mission and then convicted him of treason and sentenced him to death. Because he wasn't a human.
Sylvanas was not only an elf, she was a dead elf.
He would have done the exact same thing she did if it was him with the power.
Or do you really think that he had changed his ways that fast? I doubt it, considering he was so much of a raging racist
during
the last mission.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
Its always better to lose your life fighting on your feet then being stabbed in the back.
Not when it's some poor schmuck from Redridge's life. More people will die because of this war, not less. He's not defending, he's attacking. That's what he said in Undercity. He wants to crush the Horde, not just defend the Alliance, and that will just get more people killed on both sides, IN ADDITION TO HELPING ANY AND ALL THREATS TO BOTH FACTIONS.
Skreeran, I am willing to bet you anything Varian's armys are doing better then before, now they can expect for the Horde to ambush them and fight back. Seriously, asking for one or two peace summits is understand able, but 30? When you have always almost lost your life at each one?He's been to two. At one of them he was betrayed by his own people. At the other, he was ambushed by a third party. The Horde had nothing to do with either.
Galen is a Alliance prince, and the Horde kills him just because he had somthing they wanted. Varian should have declared war right there.Because that would have made it all better. Like I said, instead of jumping to conclusions and declaring war offhandedly, he needs to get with Thrall and tell him what needs to happen. But he won't, 'cause he's scared another third party attack will happen, apparently.
And yet a orc who loves to form raid partys and look for innocent humans to kill should look no different then the Old Horde.I have no idea what you are saying, but it appears to have to do with something about how the orcs look. By that logic, every human on Azeroth should have to pay for what Arthas, Kel'thuzad, the Scarlet Crusade, and Medivh did, correct?
And their kids should still continue to pay. Because they look the same.
This is garbage, Garithos was willing to let her leave after getting what she promised him and then he was assassinated. And I know Varian wants her dead, and good for him; so do I. That genocidal $%^&* had it coming to her. Read what Thanidus wrought, she promised and lied.Garithos very clearly wanted her dead. He wanted many of the non-humans in his own army dead. He sent Kael'thas and his elves on a suicide mission, and then sentenced them to death when they completed it.
You really think he didn't want Sylvanas dead?
Every human she's met so far has wanted her dead. She's just returning the sentiment.
Mabye because if he did not agree, she would not make a drone out of him by tearing Varian in half.Tha f--
What's the Horde have to do with that? They didn't do anything. I suppose he should hate Anduin too. It was the little bastard after all who convinced him to go. I bet he was in on it.
I have no idea where all this talk of Bolvar being a great leader is coming from lol. I don't recall him being trained to become regant lord, politics or any of that stuff. He was controlled by the necklace. And I will laugh so hard if it ever turns out Bolvar disliked orcs, everyone seems to like making up thier own backround with this character.1. He was quick to deal with Onyxia after he was released from her spell.
2. He raised the Prince while the king was away
3. He did a great job leading in Northrend.
4. He didn't hate the Horde, as was made plainly obvious by his camaraderie with Saurfang the Younger.
5. Overall, he kept Stormwind stable and under control, without flying off the handle and starting a war like Varian did.
I was refering to just Varian's encounters.Because Varian can't use any examples except things he's seen with his own eyes.
The Battle for the Portal involved tons of Alliance vs Horde. The Sunwell? Like when the blood elfs forced the High elfs into exile for refusing to suck demon magic?1. Nahsomuch
2. I don't think the Blood elves forced anyone into exile. And I was referring to the battle against Kael'thas' and the Burning Legion forces. Both the Alliance and Horde worked together without any sort of disaster, to the point where Velen even helped the elves restart the Sunwell.
You guys keep on saying about how "we can do anything if we work together!", but in reality, all "working together" is doing seems to be costing people lives...Actually, by my count, it's saving lives. What would have happened if we had petty people like Varian at Hyjal? Or Ahn'qiraj? Or the Dark Portal? Or the Sunwell?
We'd all be demon/bug/old god chow by now.
Whats that? a half-orc who wants to be our friend? Cool.= Ripping father's heart out and powerless to do anythng.Mind controlled and Varian knows it.
Thank you for saving my life
Uncle Lothar, good luck in the second war.= Lothar is killed by the same orc who Thrall worships, and honors by wearing his armor... wonder what Varian's first thought was on that lol.1. Old Horde was controlled by demons. We're over that now and we're really sorry.
2. Orgrim was a hero whether you like it or not. Freeing your people from slavery is a heroic thing. Maybe not to you, but to the orcs, yes, it is.
Peace summit? OK.= Enslavment and murder of fleet.That was your own guys. Rehgar wasn't acting under the Horde, he was acting under the Crimson Ring. If it had been a human that had happened to find you and take you for the Crimson Ring, would you be blaming them?
Peace summit? Again? Well... fine.= Almost dead son.Mind controlled. Again. And there were Alliance races there trying to kill Thrall too. Of course the wisest course of action is not to investigate... no no... War were declared. Who cares if that's exactly what Cho'gall and C'thun want! THIS OFFENSE SHALL NOT STAND!
Bolvar, I am stationing you at Wrathgate, where you will fight beside the Horde.= Killed because the Horde does not watch over the Forsaken.We also lost a hero. And hundreds of our own soldier. And hundreds of Forsaken civilians. I think we paid for that one ourselves.
Lets go revisit Lordaeron.= Several dead bodies experiment on with the plague...They were crusaders who have a whole wing of their monastery dedicated to torturing us.
Also, it's funny. Varian never mentions the bodies specifically as far as I know. You guys are just assuming that's what set him off.
Now I figured it out, it does not matter weather the experimented ones were innocent or not, the point is that no one made a stand against the experiments until it started to harm both the Alliance and Horde. If they did somthing, Bolvar might still be alive. THAT is why Varian declared war...Well really, they weren't at the top of the list of things to be checked. Thrall let Sylvanas run her own city, and he dealt with the real problems. Now that went screwy, so Sylvanas is under constant watch by the Horde. Looks like everything is going good.
Oh wait, thousands of people are still going to die because of an unnecessary war!
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
Alright. We've argued just about every point that can be made, and there's no clear victor. Let's see what happens in the ICC raid and after.
Like I said before. My bottom line, my biggest problem with Varian is that he quite possibly wants to kill Nakresh and enslave/imprison his wife and daughter.
You don't see me supporting Garrosh's anti-Alliance sentiment,
Post by
Patty
That genocidal $%^&* had it coming to her.Yet when anyone wishes something bad to happen to Varian, you flip.... They both want to kill people. Yet you think only one person should be killed for wanting to kill others, even though that is Varian's idea too!
Post by
taurenmoo812
That genocidal $%^&* had it coming to her.Yet when anyone wishes something bad to happen to Varian, you flip.... They both want to kill people. Yet you think only one person should be killed for wanting to kill others, even though that is Varian's idea too!
In short, the term being
Self Righteousness
.
Post by
Patty
I'd call it hypocrisy, but meh.
Varian wants the Horde dead.
Garrosh wants the Alliance dead.
Sylvanas wants Humans dead.
Garithos wanted all non-humans dead.
Admiral Proudmoore wanted Orcs dead.
Do you see how they are similar?
Post by
Rankkor
seriously darkton, I don't get why you keep that non-sence that whenever alliance and horde work togheter people get killed.
what about all those battles skreeran and myself mentioned?
when the dark portal opened the horde and alliance worked togheter, not against each other, they fought the legion side by side, and won the day, and as we speak they still fight togheter to keep the dark portal safe from the never endign waves of demons that step trough.
The Battle for the Portal involved tons of Alliance vs Horde
it's pretty clear you weren't there to see it with your own eyes, so, read this pls, it may be enlightnening.
http://www.wowwiki.com/Lord_Marshal_Raynor
he was an alliance NPC who led the combined alliance+horde coallision into outland, just as high overlord saurfang led the combined horde+alliance coallition into an'quiraj.
I'm, fond of this line of raynor (wich BTW is based in a character from Starcraft :P)
"Hold your ground! Hold your ground! Sons of the Alliance! Of the Horde! My brothers and sisters! I see in your eyes the same fear that would wither my own heart. A day may come when our courage fails, when we forsake our friends and break our fellowships... but it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear in these good lands, I bid you stand, heroes of Azeroth!"
(inspired by aragorn's speech in lord of the rings, but adapted into wow)
here is another good one of him :
Marshals... brothers and sisters of the sword. I'd rather fight alongside you than an army of thousands. We are lions! You know what's waiting through these demons and beyond that Dark Portal? Immortality! Take it!"
(inspired by achilees's speech in the movie Troy)
so, get the facts togheter before you say something like "whenever alliance and horde work togheter da horde hurts us" cus that's a bunch of crap, we've worked with the alliance and they have worked with us 7 times bro, 7.
and of those 7 times, only 1 did things went wrong, but as I've said thousand times before, it was the burning legion and we paid a higher price than the alliance for that mistake.
I don't know why are you ignoring me darkton when I ask of you why the hell do you blame us for the 2 failed peace meetings.
the first one went wrong due to varian's own people (defias are stormwind citizens)
second one went wrong due to a third party, I simply demand you to answer me why do you blame us for those?
varian atended the 2 peace meetings, but someone who is not affiliated with the horde disrupts them, and without any kind of proof he blames us and storms off.
aparently he's allowed to make acusations wihtout proof just because garona was involved and she's an orc.
ohh but when garrosh made the same mistake acusign the alliance of conspiracy in the tournament just because fizzlebang was a gnome varian feels offended.
so he can make acusations against us without proof, but he doesn't like it when we do the same?
pff, what a hipocrit piece of crap.
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