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Varian Thread
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Post by
Skreeran
Thats from out-side hostiles
If thease lives are supposed to be Varian's fault, then the "Beaten Corpse" is Thrall's fault.Not really. Refusing aid while mind-controlled cause deaths.
One thing that just drives me insane is how mind-control is supposed to make everything ok in storys, and how the villian does not need to be held responsible.
Arthas had no control of his actions, and yet, everyone just says "So what? Is guy caused to much damage.".See Adams response.
Garona was literally unable to stop herself. It's like if I put a gun into your hand, and then forced you to pulled the trigger. You may have technically committed the action, but you were utterly unable to stop yourself because of someone else's outside actions.
Then again, I guess all I can do is hope that when Varian said he will kill Garona as surly as he killed Onyxia, Blizzard was giving a spoiler.If that happens, Med'an will blow him up.
If you did some understanding and relating, you would find out that three peace meetings to let the same monsters who destroyed Stormwind live there is stupied.Two peace meetings.
One was stopped by his own people before he was abducted by an agent of the
Crimson Ring
.
The second was interrupted by agents of the
Twilight's Hammer
, composed of Alliance and Horde races.
Jaina and the Council also know that Garona was being mind controlled and that Cho'gall was behind the attacks.
Post by
Adamsm
The ghost child of Icecrown whos name I forgot and that is the last of Arthas' sanity regrets everything, and Tirion just said "Screw you!"You are deluded, Tirion looks at the Heart and sees nothing good or kind left it in, and tells the Lich King he's unre-deemable.. oh wait, you say you read Rise of the Lich King, yet you seem to forget that the Lich King let's the boy die..... so there's nothing there to redeem. Garona has a chance to make up for everything, one that doesn't involve her dying which is the better way. As said before, Varian kills Garona, I can see Maarad going to Velen and letting him know that Stormwind is lead by an man driven by revenge and we'll see how much longer the Draenei help the humans. And of course, I doubt the new Guardian will give a crap about the man who murdered his mother.
A change of names does not erase the past, ecpasily when the heros of the First and Second wars are honored in the Horde... Rexxar much?And the humans revere Daelin Proudmoore, even though he tried to commit genocide. There are people who feel that Pernolde was a good man who never deserved to die. That works both ways after all.
Calm down.Now there's a joke.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
and Varian's enscrollment costed no one thier lives.
news flash kiddo, try to tell that to the plp of moonbrook, ohh wait, they are dead.
why are they dead? humm, kay let's see, defias invades, varian refuses to send the army, they die.
see? granted, even if varian had sent the army in, some woudl had died, but not the whole town, it woudl still be in stormwind controll, but varian didn't sent help, so they all died, and the few survivors of the nearby farms had to form an improvised militia to fight the defias.
varian's actions while mind-controlled costed more lives than what garona has killed, true no king died, but HUNDREDS of peasants died, thanks to mister chin's inaction.
their lives are on his hands, that's why he's the frikking king, if he lets them die, its his fault.
there is a reason why the "beaten corpse" is not thrall's fault, wanna know why? because thrall doesn't neglect the defense of his plp.
on every orc village, every single one, u see orc grunts defending it, if some plp die even with that defense, at least thrall can say he did his part by having the town protected.
varian on the other hand sent no help whatsoever, so what should had been just a few deaths became hundreds of unnecesary deaths.
and yhea even when his actions costed the lives of hundreds, you still forgive him for the mind-controll.
he didn't killed them with his own hands, but he let them be killed by outside forces, wich is quite the same considering it's his responsability to protect them in the first place.
thrall however did his part to protect his people, westfall has to be protected by an improvised milita, due to lack of suport form stormwind, duskwood has to be protected by the nightwatch due to lack of suport form stormwind, lakeshire has to be protected by a small garrison due to lack of suport from stormwind.
have you seen a horde town that has to make improvised militias due to lack of suport from orgrimmar? nope sir.
As for the second thing, I am ok with Varian making an assumption because everytime he agrees to do somthing with the Horde,
he or a loved one are almost assassinated
the problem is WHO IS BEHIND THOSE ASSASSINATIONS.
are you telling me that if varian for some reason agrees to a third meeting with the horde, and while they are in there workign a peace agreement, Kil'jaeden himself shows up and kills someone dear to varian, he's gonna blame the horde and be right about that?
don't tell me "varian doesn't have wikipedia" ok? I read the comics, yes sir, all 23 of them, valeera knows that the horde wasn't behind the atack on theramoore, jaina knows the horde wasn't behind the atack on theramoore, vindicator maraad knows the horde wasn't behind the atack on theramoore.
varian is the only idiot who swalloed the bait of the old gods, and held the horde responsible because neither thrall nor reghar thinks the alliance is responsible of the atack either.
he needs to start acting like a man not a child, whenever something bad happens to him he blames the horde. but news flash bro'
the first meeting went wrong due to his own plp, and he knows it.
the second meeting went wrong due to the twilling hammer and both he and everyone he knows happens to know it too.
he acused thrall of something he was inocent, but when someone else did the same he felt offended that's hipocresy.
he can't forgive garona for her actions even when she's been mind-controlled, but he can forgive the house of nobles for their actions (wich led to the death of his wife BTW) because they did so under mind-controll, that's hipocresy.
your move brother.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
your move brother.
Oh gee, I would, but that is just to time consuming, more so that I am not going to change anyone's mind, and I am going to be to busy tonight to play our little game.
You win...
for now.
I got no hurry, feel free to make your move whenever u're ready bro (craking knuckles) I'll be ready.
(and BTW, the purpuse of a debate isn't to change someone's mind on this example, the purpuse would be for you to say why do you think varian can be forgiven for his actions while under mind-controll and garona don't, and why is varian allowed to make acusations without evidence, but still get offended when someone does the same to him, u're not gonna change anyone's mind, u're gonna expose a point, and prove if you are right or not, that's the only point of a debate, it is the audience who will cast their votes on who is right or not)
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Patty
Lol, no one even ackowledged the Med'an thing Skreeran brought up :D
It's comments like that which result in locked threads. GG.
Post by
Adamsm
Alright... Darkton...
I'm fairly certain that Med'an can beat Varian now, should Varian decide try to kill him or his mother.
Of course you didn't really comment on it either Dark, you just seemed to make a stupid joke.
But yeah, I've seen it, and Guardian vs King..... Guardian is going to win.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
Heh... Comic Varian is pretty sue-ish himself... :P
But yeah, I think Med'an would win...
:P
Post by
Adamsm
Heh, there you go Skreeran, you got to post the page I knew you wanted to.
And yes, that was a set up for our favorite Varian fan-boy.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
Pfft, when I heard Med'an beat a faceless one, I thought he did it
alone.
In this case, varian would kick the snot out of Med'an.Well, he did
that
alone.
In this case, he kicked the crap out of the elementals with help as guardian, but still...
Also, it would seem that Guardians can keep their guardian power. Look at Medivh and Aegywnn.
Post by
Adamsm
Pfft, when I heard Med'an beat a faceless one, I thought he did it alone. He did.... and this time it was with the full power of the Council behind him. So... yeah, magic vs swordsman, magic usually wins. Of course, no one knows how skilled Med'an is with weapons, we've seen him use a bo staff quite handily, and he's only about a decade younger then Varian, so who knows in an actual weapon fight.
Post by
HiVolt
Pfft, when I heard Med'an beat a faceless one, I thought he did it alone. He did.... and this time it was with the full power of the Council behind him. So... yeah, magic vs swordsman, magic usually wins. Of course, no one knows how skilled Med'an is with weapons, we've seen him use a bo staff quite handily,
and he's only about a decade younger then Varian, so who knows in an actual weapon fight.
As much as I don't like Varian, I would definitely put my money on Varian in a melee fight between the two.
Military Training from Early Childhood + Gladiatorial experience > Self-training or Informal training from a Mage
Post by
Skreeran
But then Med'an teleports 600 feet into the air and throws a spirit bomb at him... :P
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
Pfft, I takes like twenty minutes to create a spirit bomb.
Med'an will be dead before that.Heh... I'll give you that one... :P
But in all seriousness, Garona and Med'an aren't going to be dying any time soon. If Varian killed Garona, Med'an would be put into conflict, and Blizzard would be forced to kill one or the other.
Post by
taurenmoo812
The fact with this, if the two were to fight it out, combat vs magic aside, when it came to it Med'an would win, because the only reason Varian would have to attack and try to kill Med'an would be based on his insane rage issues over the mind controlled Garona, basicly making what Varian does a bad seed, no matter how much he trys to justify is actons, killing a boys mother, and the trying to kill a guardian, this would make Varians actions, being those of his onw free will, into the 'bad guy'.
Garona did what she did under mind control. If Varian was to kill her or try to kill Med'an with free will, then he's worse then anything she has done under that control.
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