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Varian Thread
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Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
hymer
I absolutely agree that it would be in the interest of both the Horde and the Alliance to have a just peace. While physical separation, as suggested with Outland, could be a way to achieve it, there are all kinds of snags and snares. Outland is already claimed in part by both Horde and Alliance, e.g. It would seem to me, too, that Outland is more likely to be invaded in force by the Legion than Azeroth, so it's not as attractive a place to live.
But peace for good is not going to happen any time soon. Not while clashes continue and (perceived) treachery abound.
I also see why most Orcs would hate and fear Varian, and they would be entirely justified in this. He is one of their mightiest and most persistent foes, a slayer of many of them personally and by proxy. He is a prize and a thorn in the side to Garrosh and those who think like him (undefeated paleskin), and probably something of a conscience throb to Thrall and his supporters (someone who has suffered dearly to Orcish corruption; in a sense, the orcs made Varian what he is, which I think makes it easier for Thrall to forgive Varian's behaviour).
About Varian using bad names about the Orcs: That's standard fare. You have to dehumanize (deorcify?) the enemy. Human psyches don't do too well with killing other humans, so this is important. I'm sure you can think of real world examples yourselves. Varian is certainly not alone in calling his enemies bad names. Sticks and stones?
As for orclings ("cub" I think is what he calls Med'an): Yes, Varian is very angry, raging out of his mind. But he does not, in point of fact, kill Med'an. Perhaps he could have. But he listens to reason (listens, at least; he may or may not agree, but he listens). I'm not saying that killing an orcling would be completely beyond Varian, but that he is less likely to commit such an atrocity than most. If placed in a similar position, a lot of people would have snapped and done something heinous. And regretted it dearly later. Errare humanum est.
But the writers made sure to make it so that you can see it both ways. They introduce conflict to Varian's character, which is dramatic, and can be interpreted. He is not as clearly cut as Thrall or Fordring.
Post by
Rankkor
this discussion is going so well, and I have to take off for a few days to visit relatives =(
in less than 2 hours more than 12 posts were added, I'd like to see how many will be added in the next 5 days of absence.
ohh well, just before I go I'll leave 2 small pointers.
the new horde has rarely (if ever) been involved with anything wrong in varian's life, however some non-horde orcs do have wronged him on several ways.
in my eyes, he has shut his ears to what other leaders have seen, that the new horde has changed, that they no longer are demon-controlled frenzied barbarians.
alextrazsa's word and blessing alone should be suficcient word to convince all other leaders, she see's the new horde for what it is.
but varian thinks the dragon queen is wrong, he actually thinks he knows better than she does, and that's an arrogance more extreme than everything else I've seen.
second pointer.
really nobody else pondered on my little theory?
varian=new barthilas?
those who read "of blood and honor" would know that barthilas was a young and ambicious paladin at the service of tirion fordring, his parents were killed by the orcs on the war, and he wanted revenge, to go on the battlefield and murder as many orcs as he could posibly do.
but by the time he was old enough to bear arms and when he finally finished his training as a paladin, the war was over, all the orcs were placed behond his reach, he no longer had his chance to kill the green-skinned ones he so longed to get his hands on.
and for this reason alone, he leapt at eitrigg an orc who did nothing wrong to him or anyone else, he just wanted to kill him just for sharing the same blood as his parents murderers.
now let's look at varian.
his father, killed by an orc, his friend lothar, killed by an orc, his kingdom, burned and razed by orcs, his people, died by the hundreds at the hands of the orcs. and just like barthilas, he was too young to do anything about that.
once he's old enough to do something about it, the war was over, the orcs were in cages, and (this is where I "could" be wrong, someone correct me if I am) he wanted the internament camps dismanteled, and it's ocupants killed.
after the orcs escaped, he saw that action as an atack, and presto once more he has his reason for killing orcs, but there is one problem, they left for kalimdor.
and now, that he saw their nation of ogrimar prospering, he considers slightly to let go of the past, goes to do peace, and ta-zhan he's kidnapped (by an outside force who had nothing to do with the horde)
a lot of extra layer of bad stuff happens to him and now that he's returned, for one last time wishes to give the orcs a chance (even when the first atack had nothing to do wiht them) and ta-zan, once again another force (who had nothing to do wiht orcs) atacks once more.
a common leader, someone wiht a fraction of cunning would think this "this is the second time, a thrid party wanted to prevent this treaty, this must mean that some third force wishes the alliance and horde to remain at each other's troath, the smartest thing to do would be to ruin their plans, join forces with the horde, sign peace treaties, and make them pay for their continuos atacks"
but varian, embitered by the past and his inability to sate his need for revenge, instead of using that line of reasoning, just uses this atack as an excuse for declaring an unprovoked war against a nation that didn't had any involvement on the peace treaty.
well these points I leave for consideration, and now, time to pack-up
see ya all in 5 days.
Post by
hymer
but varian thinks the dragon queen is wrong, he actually thinks he knows better than she does, and that's an arrogance more extreme than everything else I've seen.
Have a nice trip!
I'm younger than the Pope. I'm sure he's smarter than me, and wiser, he's better educated and he has more experience in most matters. But you better believe I use a condom!
There's something horrible about abandoning your own judgment for that of another person's, especially if you're supposed to be a leader. Alexstrasza's goals (shrouded in secrecy, and with dragons going mad or raging out all around) are not the same as Stormwind's goals.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
hymer
Someone who has such a major responsibility as protecting all life (setting aside that they may be lying or mad), may indeed be dangerous to some living. Alexstrasza has proved before that she is certainly not above playing favourites and choosing some beings to die over others. The Alliance has felt this before.
I thought perhaps in some book or something...? A quest line I missed?
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
hymer
I really don't need to chase up a link for this, do I? She chose her eggs over the lives of Alliance citizens in the Second War.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
hymer
Showing her to be fallible, and not an uncompromising friend of Stormwind.
Post by
Adamsm
Well, seeing as it was either stop starving herself or watch as egg after egg was destroyed...... had nothing to do with the Alliance, and everything to do with the Dragonmaw Orc Clan torturing her and using her as a weapon.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
hymer
Absolutely.
I'm talking about why Varian should or should not trust her judgment above all else. There are good reasons not to. She is not infallible. She has shown that she is open to pressure. Her principle of protecting all life is not set in stone. She is a player in the world, and her judgment is not something everyone should just bow down to.
On an outside note, her dragonflight was pretty close to deciding on wiping out all life. Rhonin's heroism stopped it.
Dragons in general aren't, shall we say, known for their unwavering support of Stormwind, and the same goes for Alexstrasza. For the king of Stormwind to question her is natural.
Also, if she does indeed love all life... Would you take the judgment of, say, a guy's mother as the truth of his character?
Post by
Adamsm
Absolutely.
I'm talking about why Varian should or should not trust her judgment above all else. There are good reasons not to. She is not infallible. She has shown that she is open to pressure. Her principle of protecting all life is not set in stone. She is a player in the world, and her judgment is not something everyone should just bow down to.
On an outside note, her dragonflight was pretty close to deciding on wiping out all life. Rhonin's heroism stopped it.
Dragons in general aren't, shall we say, known for their unwavering support of Stormwind, and the same goes for Alexstrasza. For the king of Stormwind to question her is natural.
Also, if she does indeed love all life... Would you take the judgment of, say, a guy's mother as the truth of his character?
So, rather then have hope that one day her flight would be free, Alexstrasza should have just rolled over and die? It wasn't her fault that the Red's were enslaved by the Old Horde, and most of those Dragon's used were fledglings, incredibly young dragons who didn't have their full mental facilities. The orc's actually made it a standard practice to kill the Dragon's before they got too old to keep them rebelling against the Old Horde. Yes Rhonin helped free her, but the fact that, even after being the prisoner of the Horde for almost 15 years, the Queen of Life can tell the difference between the Old Horde and the New Horde, and see that their not the same type of creatures.
Post by
46491
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Post by
Arkham
Well, seeing as it was either stop starving herself or watch as egg after egg was destroyed...... had nothing to do with the Alliance,Nothing? Thousands of Alliance soldiers dying to Horde-controlled dragons has "nothing" to do with the Alliance?
Hymer isn't saying that Alexstrasza should have done differently, or that what she did is wrong, per se.
He is simply saying that her goals, and the goals of a leader of a nation such as Stormwind, may be different. Their priorities and what they value may be different. And he is completely correct in saying that.
EDIT:
Thoras Trollbane (king of Stromgarde and uncle of Danath) was the only Alliance leader known to have supported extermination of the Orcs after the Second War. Genn Greymane of Gilneas didn't want to pay for the camps, but I don't know if he had any specific alternative in mind.Regarding Greymane, from the Warcraft 2 manual:
Thoras Trollbane of Stromgarde and Genn Greymane of Gilneas both disagreed vehemently with Terenas, resolving that the orcs were too great a threat to leave alive.
Post by
Adamsm
Well, seeing as it was either stop starving herself or watch as egg after egg was destroyed...... had nothing to do with the Alliance,
Nothing? Thousands of Alliance soldiers dying to Horde-controlled dragons has "nothing" to do with the Alliance?
Hymer isn't saying that Alexstrasza should have done differently, or that what she did is wrong, per se.
He is simply saying that her goals, and the goals of a leader of a nation such as Stormwind, may be different. Their priorities and what they value may be different. And he is completely correct in saying that.
Seeing as the point he is talking about is after the 2nd War, is in fact during the events of Day of the Dragon, which is when the Dragonmaw were trying to rebuild the Horde Dragon force to re-join up with the Blackrock Orcs. The most that was happening were random Dragon attacks as the Old Horde tried to get supplies back. She is the Queen of Life, all life, even if said life is being used a mobile siege weapon, is still sacred to her. It would be like expecting a Paladin not to heal someone just because they are a different faith.
Post by
46491
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Post by
Skreeran
Thoras Trollbane (king of Stromgarde and uncle of Danath) was the only Alliance leader known to have supported extermination of the Orcs after the Second War. Genn Greymane of Gilneas didn't want to pay for the camps, but I don't know if he had any specific alternative in mind.
Varian's exact views on the internment are unknown, but he was a strong supporter of King Terenas and likely would have backed the internment.Don't forget Prince Kael'thas.
As for Varian, based on his attitude towards Doomhammer when the orcs were first interned, I would say he opposed it. He may have later changed his mind, but at that point he certainly didn't seem to see anything wrong with killing them outright.
As for Alexstrasza... Let's say we forget about her...
How about Tirion? Varian trusted Tirion's judgement enough to let former Scourge into the Alliance, why won't he accept Tirion's word on the orcs?
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