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Post by
oneforthemoney
Not arguing that was seriously dumb on their parts. Going against direct orders and smashing the air ship lost us serious tactical power. But the thing is...they weren't exactly wrong either. I mean, enslaving a god is NOT the best thing for the new warchief to do right out the damn gate. Nor is making deals with Vyrkul equivalent of Satan. If Greymane and Rogers hadn't blasted her fleet, she could have taken Eyir much faster. And if Greymane hadn't stalked her and stopped her, we could have been in serious trouble.
Post by
Atik
Well
Keep in mind we have no idea what Sylannas was up to for most of Stormheim. She makes no mention of the Valkyr during the Horde intro, and then goes MIA until Helheim. For all we know, she might have died and needed to make the deal to escape Helheim. And, of course, we don't know what the full extent of her deal was, since she doesn't tell the Horde PC much of anything.
Post by
oneforthemoney
We know she got the lantern from Hel and was released. We also know the purpose of the lantern was to enslave Eyir so she could have more valks. Those aren't in dispute. Though I applaud her not dragging the rest of the Horde into that mess, and know Sylvanas is the poster girl of burtal pragmatism, it still did not show her in a good light at all. We could have lost way more than one of our leaders if she got Odynn pissed at us.
Post by
Skreeran
Prediction: Sylvanas is going to die in either this expansion or the next one.
Post by
Rankkor
Admiral Rogers and Greymane are the most bull-headed and stupid Alliance characters yet.
They are, and I'd be extremely pissed off if after this little display, blizzard dares to paint them in any sort of positive light.
Now, Nathanos intends to destroy the Skyfire with alchemical vials. Unfortunately, the Alliance finds them all and tosses them off the ship. This left me wondering why the Skyfire itself is still destroyed. And then I spoke to Admiral Rogers.
"We had the Horde right where we wanted them, trapped in that bay. I made the call, and I don't regret it."
And then I realized just what brought her stupidity and lunacy to new heights. Outgunned by Sylvannas' navy, the crazy #$%^& used the Skyfire to kamakazi the Horde! She literally threw out the ONE advantage the Alliance had, risking the lives of her own men and the Champions meant to retrieve the Aegis. And for WHAT? An attempt to kill Sylvannas, against her king's wishes?
I'm afraid you kinda got it wrong here. The alchemical vials were of a highly corrosive acid, one that can dissolve anything, and as Nathanos points out "once the cork is popped, there's no stopping it".
Rogers did not just ordered the Skyfire to ram at the forsaken fleet (in fact, the ship crash-landed quite far away from it), the ship blew up because even though the alliance players threw the vials out, their acid was already eating away at the ship and the ammunition (this is why ammo is kept in an extra-reinforced part of the ship in real life, you DON'T want those blowing up and taking out your ship with them). Besides, the main deck was empty at the time, I made sure of that >=)
Not arguing that was seriously dumb on their parts. Going against direct orders and smashing the air ship lost us serious tactical power. But the thing is...they weren't exactly wrong either. I mean, enslaving a god is NOT the best thing for the new warchief to do right out the damn gate.
Ohh they were plenty wrong here. During the middle of a legion invasion, they chose to compromise alliance resources and manpower on a petty vendetta that would gain NOTHING in the long run. They had no idea of what was sylvanas trying to accomplish when the attack order was given. They just saw her, and despite being ordered not to attack unless provoked, they went leeroy on us and attacked anyways.
As for enslaving a god, I think you're overreacting a little bit there. Its little different than the night elves trying to regain their immortality with a new world tree when their old one was burned in the third war. They lost something, they wanted to take it back, and they didn't care how many nature deities they had to screw over to get it. If it was right for them, why is it wrong for the forsaken? Its not like the vrykul are a noble peaceful race. They're THE warrior race, who wage war on everyone. Just about every single vrykul tribe in northrend and the broken isles is hostile to everyone they meet.
If their knowledge can be put to good use to aid in someone else's cause, then what's the issue?
Nor is making deals with Vyrkul equivalent of Satan.
If you've read Chronicles, you should know that Helya is most definitely not even remotely close to Satan. Satan openly rebelled against God, despite being given several chances to attone and repent, and then he dragged down and corrupted several angels with him. Helya on the other hand was FORCED into her current role by Odyn when she refused. She hated being the undertaker of the dead souls and refused to do it, but Odyn made her anyways. Don't let Odyn's glorious flame beard and joyful dear uncle attitude fool you, he's not the good guy here. not by a long shot.
Helya is a victim here, and while she acts like a complete jerkass during our time in helheim, I'd imagine that if I was forced to do a horrible job for the rest of eternity, and transformed into a monstrosity against my will despite not doing anything to deserve such a fate, I'd be pretty salty too.
If Greymane and Rogers hadn't blasted her fleet, she could have taken Eyir much faster.
Again, so? what's it to them? Is sylvanas stalking around the alliance, meddling in their affairs? What right do they have to meddle with hers? If she wants Eyir, what business is it of them? Because they want to settle a grudge?
And if Greymane hadn't stalked her and stopped her, we could have been in serious trouble.
Would you? would you really? Why? Who has acted like the belligerent aggressor here? was it sylvanas? nope. Sylvanas only wants her people and her lands to be left alone. Nothing more, nothing less. So long as the alliance keeps away from her borders, she doesn't even bothers pursuing something as petty as revenge (She saw where that got her in her pursuit of Arthas). She only invaded Gilneas because garrosh made her, and he's already been made to pay for his crimes. When the alliance attacked Silverpine forest, she repelled them, and did she retaliate? nope, in fact she allowed the survivors who surrendered to leave unharmed.
Greymane ruined her plans out of nothing but a grudge, but don't pretend that she was posing any kind of threat to the alliance or the rest of the world as a whole. She wasn't. Sylvanas is not hellbent in world domination like garrosh was, all she wants is for her and her people to survive. And maybe even reverse the effects of undeath, something that the valkyr ARE proficient at, and have demonstrated several times.
Imagine for a moment that Greymane was inches away from discovering the cure of the Worgen curse, and then sylvanas snatched it from him. That's more or less what happened here. Rogers, and SPECIALLY Greymane crossed the moral event horizon here.
They wasted quite a lot of manpower, and very expensive resources (Including the flagship of the alliance) in pursuit of a petty revenge for a past war, right in the middle of the biggest war of our times. This is akin to the Fleet Admiral of the USS Abraham Lincoln directly disobeying orders from the president, and deviating his ship in pursuit of a rogue general who killed his son a few years ago, and causing the ship to be destroyed in the process. Right in the middle of Desert Storm.
A US General tries to pull that crap, and it doesn't matter if the general he was pursuing was doing something dangerous, it doesn't diminishes the fact that he went AWOL on his commander in chief, caused the deaths of a lot of manpower, and caused the loss of a mayor war asset of the country. Actions like these, would put a general like that in the wrong side. No matter his motivations, or his reasons. And I certainly expect blizzard reflects this in the game, because if Rogers remains in her position after this little stunt, I'm gonna be pretty pissed off.
Prediction: Sylvanas is going to die in either this expansion or the next one.
Not really.
Do the quests bro', she's not portrayed as the bad guy in this conflict. In fact, her demeanor is calmed and patient, whereas Greymane is a howling screeching frothing mad dog cursing and howling at the wind. That she did not drag the rest of the horde in pursuit of her own personal goal (Unlike greymane and rodgers who DID exactly that with precious alliance resources and manpower) AND she did not retaliate against the alliance after their initial strike, speaks quite highly of her.
Even after Greymane royally screwed her over, she's still no garrosh, she has learned from his mistakes. I am certainly hoping that the opposite will happen. That greymane is the one who will get put down like the rabbid mongrel he is at the end of this expansion. Part of my hopes lie on that arrow that was protruding from his chest. That's no ink I can tell you that much. And the poisons that sylvanas usually imbues her arrows with are not known for causing diarrhea. (##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
Post by
oneforthemoney
Sorry Rank, I worded that first part poorly. Let me clarify.
I didn't mean they were right to attack Rank. I conceded that was amazingly stupid. I meant they were right to suspect Sylvanas of not being on the level. And they were right. She attacked a neutral party in the hopes of enslaving a warrior goddess who commands a second and holy force of valkyrs. She dealt with a deity who rules over and delights in the suffering of the dead, and she did so to get a tool to enslave Eyir and use her valkyrs. She is literally trying to do exactly what Arthas did to her. It's not asking for power or knowledge. It's slavery.
As for comparing this to the new world tree, that doesn't really work. The Night Elves did try to regain their immortality, and it failed to restore their immortality specifically because Nozdormu refused his blessing. The divide there is the night elves did not then try and force him to bless it.
Sylvanas is...complicated. I concede that. But she doesn't want her lands simply left alone. She wants to thrive. She wants the forsaken to persist. There's nothing wrong with that. It's her misfortune however that literally the only way they can is by killing people and forcing them into undeath. It's why she needs the valkyrs. It's why she refuses to settle with the ones that remain. She is in an awful position for her people, yes. But that hardly makes her right.
And Sylvanas was the aggressor here. She attacked Skold-Ashl unprovoked, for the specific purpose of ensorcling Eyir. We have here a situation of right and reason. Sylvanas was doing all this for the right reason, but her way was wrong. Greymane was opposing her for the wrong reason, but did the right thing.
But what really irks me is Sylvanas uses
YOU
to get in there! You go in on Ashildir knowing you and trusting you, and your leader tries to enslave her goddess, and she never even tells you.
Our goal lies within that vault, <class>. I don't have time to explain in detail - just know that it is vital to the Forsaken that we succeed.
Find me when you have completed this task, and we will take the vault for the Horde!
It seems that you are full of surprises, <name>. With the blessing of the Valkyra queen, you have opened a path that will shape the destiny of Azeroth.
I invite you to bear witness, for today a new day dawns on the Forsaken!
Post by
Skreeran
Not really.
Do the quests bro', she's not portrayed as the bad guy in this conflict. In fact, her demeanor is calmed and patient, whereas Greymane is a howling screeching frothing mad dog cursing and howling at the wind. That she did not drag the rest of the horde in pursuit of her own personal goal (Unlike greymane and rodgers who DID exactly that with precious alliance resources and manpower) AND she did not retaliate against the alliance after their initial strike, speaks quite highly of her.
Even after Greymane royally screwed her over, she's still no garrosh, she has learned from his mistakes. I am certainly hoping that the opposite will happen. That greymane is the one who will get put down like the rabbid mongrel he is at the end of this expansion. Part of my hopes lie on that arrow that was protruding from his chest. That's no ink I can tell you that much. And the poisons that sylvanas usually imbues her arrows with are not known for causing diarrhea. It's mainly just intuition. She has more Big Bad points at the start of her term as Warchief than Garrosh did, and definitely more than Vol'jin did. She's already like an Arthas level baddie for the Alliance. Why should I assume the Warchief body pile won't keep growing at the same rate?
(I'm being a little bit snarky, btw, just because of Blizz's inconsistency with the Horde and the Warchief)
Post by
Adamsm
While the Admiral and Greymane are zealous, pursuing the war on one side..as far as they could tell, they were doing the right thing. One of the quests in Azsuna provides us with this
after all
which gives an idea of what Sylvanas was planning. You turn it into the Gilnean's in Dalaran and they tell you that they'll make sure it get's to Greymane. When you read the fragment, all it tells is that Sylvanas is after something huge, and since the last time the Forsaken had something huge, the Wrathgate was Blighted(which makes a return in Stormheim), you can't blame them for wanting to stop her no matter what. Whether it's open war or not, you still don't want an enemy power getting a hold of a major threat if you can stop them.
Personally; I enjoyed watching the fight between Genn and Sylvanas and the old wolf was very sneaky and tricky when he stole the lamp. But really, had her plan succeeded, Sylvanas would have pissed off one of the strongest powers in the Broken Isles and could have caused major issues for the Horde.
Post by
morginar
Said quest exist on both sides of the faction fence and it's inconclusive to say that either one is more cannon than the other.
Also as there is no order for the zones, I would assume they happen at the same time. Possibly the boat in Azuna is from horde start in Stormhome.
And it is clear from the start that he isn't doing it for some noble "she is shady" thing. It's something she was ordered to do expacs ago.
Though one could claim that the dreadlord who hijacked SI:7 (from rogue order campaign) could be behind the hostilities the alliance showed to the horde. (or fueling it).
Regardless. I hope that the 7.1 boss gives some insight into Sylvanas motives. (not that it is her, but it's something with the heavenly valk or Hel)
Post by
Adamsm
Yeah but the quest was there to tell the Alliance that Sylvanas was up to something in Stormheim. It would have been a race to stop it no matter who did it, but again since it was the one who had created one of the most dangerous weapons on Azeroth, since the Blight kills both the living and the undead, you'd want to stop that one even more from gaining another power, because as far as most would know, they don't know how she is planning on using it. It would be different if Sylvanas had told her forces what she was planning beyond possibly Nathanos, but she doesn't. She still keeps it a secret so you can't blame people for reacting badly.
As for who they choose; since you hear it from Horde fans that there are no rabid aggressive Horde haters on the Alliance anymore, they upped it for Taylor and Greymane...but, and not justifying their actions, it's not like they don't have perfectly good motives for why they want to kill the Forsaken and Sylvanas. Rogers came from Southshore, and we know what happened to that in Cata. Greymane watched his country be destroyed and his son cut down in front of him.
I get it; the war should be over at this point, but it never will because there is too much hatred on both sides of the factions to ever give it up. Even when the truth comes out, there are still those who won't listen, same as what exists now. And since PVP is a thing, Blizzard will never remove the conflicts since it's something that draws in people.
Post by
Rankkor
Sorry Rank, I worded that first part poorly. Let me clarify.
I didn't mean they were right to attack Rank. I conceded that was amazingly stupid. I meant they were right to suspect Sylvanas of not being on the level. And they were right. She attacked a neutral party in the hopes of enslaving a warrior goddess who commands a second and holy force of valkyrs.
Whoa whoa whoa whoa, hold the phone one second.
First off, Neutral my hairy ass. The vrykul are HOSTILE. Every tribe, on every continent. They are hostile to everyone they meet, and while some exceptions are found here and there, by and large they are still hostile nonetheless. The wardens even send you (Regardless of faction) to Skol-Ashl to kill the valkyria left and right because they are NOT divine angels of justice. They're a dangerous menace to the rest of the broken isles.
As for these valkyr being Holy, you do realize that just because someone wields holy magic does NOT automatically make them saint and good, right? Scarlet crusade ring a bell? Light is not automatically good, just like darkness is not automatically evil.
Odyn initially envisioned the valkyr for a specific purpose, and while the valkyrs aligned to him do that specific purpose, the rest more or less do what they want.
She dealt with a deity who rules over and delights in the suffering of the dead, and she did so to get a tool to enslave Eyir and use her valkyrs.
You are greatly demonizing Helya here, Do remember that she is what she is because Odyn made her. She didn't choose to become ruler of the dead, she didn't choose to become a prisoner of helheim, she didn't chose to become a monster. I think Sylvanas greatly empathized with Helya (and helya did the same) because their backgrounds are remarkably similar. Both of them were forced to do horrible things against their will. Both of them were turned into abominations despite not deserving such a fate.
She is literally trying to do exactly what Arthas did to her. It's not asking for power or knowledge. It's slavery.
That's one way to look at it. Another way is that she's taking control of a force with the power to reverse undeath in order to cure her people from an affliction they did not ask for. Its not like the valkyr are saints and innocents here. They are violent and hostile, and a menace to everyone they meet.
Sylvanas is...complicated. I concede that. But she doesn't want her lands simply left alone. She wants to thrive.
Do note that Thrive doesn't mean expand. She's content with the lands the forsaken have. And the only reason she's looking for a way to obtain more forsaken is because she knows the rest of the alliance will never leave them alone, and without the ability to reproduce, attrition alone will kill them in the long run. This is a conflic that could easily end if the alliance would just leave them alone. But they never do, and they never will.
And Sylvanas was the aggressor here.
Not really. She's the one who was attacked, not the other way around. Even after she was attacked, she didn't retalliate back until greymane screwed her over, at which point she decided that if its war he wants, war he'll get.
She attacked Skold-Ashl unprovoked, for the specific purpose of ensorcling Eyir.
She attacked a hostile settlement full of dangerous vrykul that could and have hampered the efforts of the horde to obtain the ageis of aggramar. I must repeat myself, even the wardens consider the inhabitants of Skold-Ashl to be dangerous criminals that represent a threat to the rest of the broke isles. Think on that for a moment.
Greymane was opposing her for the wrong reason, but did the right thing.
Right, someone who wasn't attacking him was trying to save their people and he gets in the way. I wonder if you'd feel the same if sylvanas intentionally sabotaged a gilnean inches away from curing the worgen curse.
While the Admiral and Greymane are zealous, pursuing the war on one side..as far as they could tell, they were doing the right thing.
Right, they were doing the right thing by attacking someone unprovoked, for no other reason than a petty vendetta. Do you even listen to what you're saying? you only think they're in the right because you dislike sylvanas, but if a leader of the horde, attacked unprovoked a leader of the alliance, you'd be singing a different tune.
Not to mention that they directly disobeyed an explicit order from Anduin. Just how much respect they have for his crown and his authority, if when he says "only attack if provoked" they go ahead and open fire unprovoked? They may as well be spitting on Varian's grave, if they're gonna treat the authority of his living heir as a filthy joke.
you can't blame them for wanting to stop her no matter what. Whether it's open war or not, you still don't want an enemy power getting a hold of a major threat if you can stop them.
Except she wasn't getting a hold of "a major threat". This was no divine bell, this was no weapon of mass destruction, this was simply a means to prevent the forsaken from dying out. At several times sylvanas has demonstrated that she has no intention on pursuing the alliance (I must repeat it, after she successfully repelled the attack on silverpine forest, she allowed the forces who surrendered to leave unharmed and refused to pursue them. Name me ONCE when an alliance officer has done the same)
I get it; the war should be over at this point, but it never will because there is too much hatred on both sides of the factions to ever give it up.
Correction: There's too much hatred on the alliance side to ever give it up. Time and again, after wars are over, the horde simply wants to BE LEFT ALONE, and the alliance can't even manage to do that much, constantly pushing the horde into open aggression.
When they defeated the orcs in the second war, it wasn't enough that they won, a lot of them wanted to enact complete genocide on the entire orcish race. When the orcs escape, rather than pursue revenge and reignite the fires of war, they fled to a new continent to start over, and lo-and-behold, it was the alliance who pursued them there and attacked them first (Jaina's dad)
After they agreed to a cease fire at the end of the war of the lich king, it was once again, the alliance, who broke the hostilities because of their inability to let go. Jaina's forces invade durotar and the valley of trials, and forces from stormwind attack the barrens and honor point BEFORE the shattering (and thus before the forsaken even set foot on gilneas).
And now here we are, another war over, and AGAIN its the alliance who attacks the forsaken because "they may be plotting something".
Every single time a war is ignited its because its the alliance who refuses to even consider for even a split of a second that the horde only wants to be left alone. Live and let live. Apparently that concept is too hard for the golden lions to understand.(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
Post by
Adamsm
Right, they were doing the right thing by attacking someone unprovoked, for no other reason than a petty vendetta. Do you even listen to what you're saying? you only think they're in the right because you dislike sylvanas, but if a leader of the horde, attacked unprovoked a leader of the alliance, you'd be singing a different tune.
Not to mention that they directly disobeyed an explicit order from Anduin. Just how much respect they have for his crown and his authority, if when he says "only attack if provoked" they go ahead and open fire unprovoked? They may as well be spitting on Varian's grave, if they're gonna treat the authority of his living heir as a filthy joke.Dial it back a little there Rank. I wouldn't call the utter destruction of two different lands petty after all; Hillsbrad is not going to be habitable by the living any time soon, and Gilneas will always be a mess due to what happened there as well as the fact that the person who murdered the heir apparent walked away free without any reprisal. I'm not saying they are right by an over all view point, I'm saying from their own personal experiences with the Forsaken, what they did was completely in character for those two. And we'll have to wait and see if Anduin takes them to task for attacking; we've seen that before as well.
Except she wasn't getting a hold of "a major threat". This was no divine bell, this was no weapon of mass destruction, this was simply a means to prevent the forsaken from dying out. At several times sylvanas has demonstrated that she has no intention on pursuing the alliance (I must repeat it, after she successfully repelled the attack on silverpine forest, she allowed the forces who surrendered to leave unharmed and refused to pursue them. Name me ONCE when an alliance officer has done the same)Except for the Forsaken to not die out...humans have to die and be raised up by the Valk's; that doesn't sound very harmless to me. There's also the fact that had she succeeded with her plan, she would have started another war; there is no way that Odyn would have let that pass, the new allied Vykrul were going to let it go, and just how much that would have thrown everything into disarray right when the Legion is breaking down the doors.
Every single time a war is ignited its because its the alliance who refuses to even consider for even a split of a second that the horde only wants to be left alone. Live and let live. Apparently that concept is too hard for the golden lions to understand.Well...except for that whole Garrosh thing leading the Horde and attempting to completely crush the Alliance that is.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Rank, the problem with your argument is that you have to take the assumption that the Vyrkul here are naturally evil and therefore are undeserving of any sympathy or benefit of the doubt. That it is RIGHT to attack them unprovoked and steal their living connection to their afterlife, because Sylvanas deserves it more. That they do not deserve to be allowed to live, but must, wherever they are met, be dealt with only using violence.
If we assume it is in the nature of all Vyrkul to be dangerous and hostile, then why not the Forsaken?
Here we have a race who not only willingly and gleefully use chemical weapons of mass destruction, but do not grow, do not cultivate, and can solely propagate by killing others and forcing them into undeath.
Your argument forces a double standard here. If we say Sylvanas was right in her aggression, then Rogers and Greymane must have been right for their sneak attack. If one race must only be met with violence, and what they have that one wants can be taken through slavery, then why should the Forsaken not be met with only violence no matter the circumstances? Can they be left in peace if they have lands that another want? They can only exist and pollute them. Why shouldn't they be taken?
I'm not advocating this argument Rank. I'm pointing out a hypocrisy.
Post by
Atik
So, uh, one thing I think needs to be brought up. Putting it in spoiler tags because, again, end of the zone, leading into Halls of Valor.
Odyn doesn't give a single damn what Sylvannas did. In the Halls of Valor, Eyir is the ONLY one even remotely angry about what happened. Odyn has you face her newest Valkyr as part of your challenge, knowingly interrupting a ceremony without a single concern of their feeling on the matter.
He really doesn't seem like the type to hold a grudge.
And Rank, while THOSE Vrykul were naturally hostile, that doesn't hold true for all of them. Keep in mind one of the Flight Paths in Stormheim is a neutral settlement, and the Warrior starts this expansion meeting several friendly, even jovial Vrykul.
(On that note. Finna for best waifu 2016!)
Post by
Rankkor
Rank, the problem with your argument is that you have to take the assumption that the Vyrkul here are naturally evil and therefore are undeserving of any sympathy or benefit of the doubt.
Evil is a subjective word. They're violent, and hostile to everyone they meet. Not just the ones in the broken isles, the ones in northrend too. This is not a peaceful race that coexists with others. They viciously and relentlessly attack everything and everyone they meet. Bar none.
While there are exceptions to the norm, that's what they are, exceptions. The default vrykul WILL attack you on sight, without giving even one flying frick what banner you're wearing, or even if you're wearing no banner at all.
That it is RIGHT to attack them unprovoked
Again with "unprovoked". Understand that any engagement with vrykul will NEVER be unprovoked. This is a race that lives and breathes for war, they declare war on everything and everyone they meet. Say what you will about the forsaken, but at least they know how to coexist with other races. But the vrykul? Every single tribe you meet is at war with someone, and as soon as they meet someone new, they wage war on them too. Minor exceptions aside.
and steal their living connection to their afterlife, because Sylvanas deserves it more.
Maybe sylvanas doesn't deserves it more, but you know what they say about stealing from a thief. Its not like the vrykul will put it to any better use than she would.
That they do not deserve to be allowed to live, but must, wherever they are met, be dealt with only using violence.
If we assume it is in the nature of all Vyrkul to be dangerous and hostile, then why not the Forsaken?
I can give you two reasons:
The first batch of vrykul we found, swore allegiance to the lich king. And not to be upended by their northern cousins, these vrykul swore allegiance to the legion. Shall I say more? The Wardens blatantly tell you that they are a menace to all who live in the broken isles, and that their presence represents a threat to all the other races that make the island their home. That should tell you just how dangerous they are.
Here we have a race who not only willingly and gleefully use chemical weapons of mass destruction, but do not grow, do not cultivate, and can solely propagate by killing others and forcing them into undeath.
Hey, I'm not gonna pretend that the forsaken are saintly doves, but neither are the vrykul. This is a race of jerks, attacking another race of jerks. This still doesn't give the alliance any right to intervene in matters that dont incumb them. Specially when their king ordered them not to attack unless specifically provoked into it.
Your argument forces a double standard here. If we say Sylvanas was right in her aggression, then Rogers and Greymane must have been right for their sneak attack.
Not really. Have you SEEN the forsaken attacking others unprovoked since cataclysm? have you? Because I haven't. Even the one time they attacked someone unprovoked was because garrosh ordered them to do it, and as for andorhal, that wasn't unprovoked, the land was up for grabs when the scourge was beaten, alliance and horde fought over it, horde won, deal with it.
Meanwhile, the vrykul in northrend have been HORRIBLE to their neighbors, attacking the tuskkar, the taunka, the murlocs, the sons of hodir, basically anyone that isn't them, and then they swore allegiance to the frigging lich king. And then we have the vrykul of the broken isles, who on top of swearing allegiance to the burning legion, also desecrate the very rituals the titans gave them to preserve, and the few that didn't, are still such an open menace to the other civilizations of the broken isles, the wardens offer kill-on-sight bounties for their heads.
Sylvanas was right in her aggression to them. Greymane was not. With the war over, the forsaken didn't represent a threat to his kingdom or his people. They had no interest in taking anyone else's land. Sylvanas simply wanted new valkyr to preserve the future of her people in case the alliance got any ideas of taking their land away from them.
If one race must only be met with violence, and what they have that one wants can be taken through slavery, then why should the Forsaken not be met with only violence no matter the circumstances?
The forsaken haven't sided with neither the lich king nor the legion. The forsaken have proven that they can work and coexist with other races. The forsaken haven't automatically attacked others unprovoked unless forced to by garrosh (The vrykul did it without anyone ordering them to do so). I could list quite a lot of reasons why meeting the former with violence is okay, and why it isn't for the latter. The vrykul are much much MUCH worse.
Worse enough that the wardens post quite a lot of kill-on-sight bounties for them.
I'm not advocating this argument Rank. I'm pointing out a hypocrisy.
Its only a hypocrisy if the forsaken are every bit as bad as the vrykul, yet I claim that its okay to harm one, and not the other. This is not the case. The vrykul are worse. Much worse.
Dial it back a little there Rank. I wouldn't call the utter destruction of two different lands petty after all; Hillsbrad is not going to be habitable by the living any time soon, and Gilneas will always be a mess due to what happened there as well as the fact that the person who murdered the heir apparent walked away free without any reprisal.
It doesn't matter. All of it happened in a war that is now over. Would you say its perfectly okay for a general who lost a son in the vietnam war to attack a vietnamese town to enact vengeance for his son?
I can understand why Greymane and Rogers refuse to let go, but this doesnt' mean they are in the right. They're in the wrong. They wasted a lot of critical assets and manpower on a personal vendetta. This by itself would be quite a nasty thing to do. That they did it right in the middle of the biggest legion invasion in recorded history only makes it worse.
I'm not saying they are right by an over all view point, I'm saying from their own personal experiences with the Forsaken, what they did was completely in character for those two.
It was in-character. It was also wrong, and I'm hoping they're made accountable for it. After all, almost every single time a horde leader does something bad, they're made to pay for it. Now that the tables are turned, I expect to see some of that treatment handed over to the alliance.
And we'll have to wait and see if Anduin takes them to task for attacking; we've seen that before as well.
Not just for the attack, but for directly disobeying his orders. A king that doesn't bother to enforce his authority, wont be king for long. If people have free leeway to disobey his commands whenever they feel like it, because "from their point of view" what they're doing is the right thing, then what right does he have to hold a crown?
Just because someone "thinks they're doing the right thing" doesn't mean they're actually doing the right thing. After all, the scarlet crusade thought they were doing the light's work, and fighting for justice and freedom and righteousness. But in reality, they were cold-blooded murderers.
Except she wasn't getting a hold of "a major threat". This was no divine bell, this was no weapon of mass destruction, this was simply a means to prevent the forsaken from dying out. At several times sylvanas has demonstrated that she has no intention on pursuing the alliance (I must repeat it, after she successfully repelled the attack on silverpine forest, she allowed the forces who surrendered to leave unharmed and refused to pursue them. Name me ONCE when an alliance officer has done the same)Except for the Forsaken to not die out...humans have to die and be raised up by the Valk's;
that doesn't sound very harmless to me.
But it is. It requires the alliance to attack her first. If the alliance doesn't, then she doesn't have a reason to use them. Besides, you're assuming that this is the ONLY use she wants to get out of these valkyr, when in reality, she's also looking for a way to reverse undeath entirely, to achieve true resurrection, which is a secret the valkry know and guard well.
There's also the fact that had she succeeded with her plan, she would have started another war; there is no way that Odyn would have let that pass
As Atik pointed out, Odyn is aware of our involvement with Eyir, as she shows up in the Halls of Valor. He doesn't give a single rat's ass about it. Him and his Valarjar have been locked in the Halls of Valor ever since he forced Helya into becoming the ferryman of the dead, cursed by her to never be able to leave, and without his influence in the world, all of the vrykul, the ones in the north and here, have gone AWOL. He doesn't care in the slightest what happens to them. Odyn is actually quite a bipolar figure, as he openly encourages faction conflict. As in, he openly goads alliance players to attack forsaken, and openly goads horde players to attack the worgen.
Dude has a raging hard-on for war. Hardly someone to hold the moral highground here.
Every single time a war is ignited its because its the alliance who refuses to even consider for even a split of a second that the horde only wants to be left alone. Live and let live. Apparently that concept is too hard for the golden lions to understand.Well...except for that whole Garrosh thing leading the Horde and attempting to completely crush the Alliance that is.
That's the cataclysm war. The one that was started when the alliance attacked Honor Stand and the crossroads BEFORE the shattering, and Jaina sent her troops into the valley of trials and Durotar while her treaty with the horde still stood. And when the alliance attempted to kidnap thrall and kill any witness who stumbled upon them.
Don't pin this on garrosh. Garrosh may have been the one who escalated the war into a full Total War of Annihilation, but the ones who fired the first shot was the alliance.
And Rank, while THOSE Vrykul were naturally hostile, that doesn't hold true for all of them. Keep in mind one of the Flight Paths in Stormheim is a neutral settlement, and the Warrior starts this expansion meeting several friendly, even jovial Vrykul.
(On that note. Finna for best waifu 2016!)
I know, which is why I said that there's exceptions to the norm. But that's what they are, exceptions. The overwhelming majority of the vrykul are hostile to anything with a pulse. And have a penchant for swearing their allegiance to the worst bad guys in the game.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Dear God Rank. This is absolutely amazing. You are actually saying that Sylvanas wants peace and to be left alone, even though it is canon that if she doesn't want the Forsaken to die out, she's going to need to KILL people. That the Vyrkul DESERVE to be killed wherever they are, whatever they are doing, because there is no hope for them. That Sylvanas should enslave people if she thinks it will benefit her, force them to raise the dead against their will. It's amazing! It's like you don't understand that Sylvanas was literally doing the exact same thing the Lich King did to her.
Maybe sylvanas doesn't deserves it more, but you know what they say about stealing from a thief. Its not like the vrykul will put it to any better use than she would.
What? Stealing from a thief? You...you mean enslaving a sentient being who raises warriors to the equivalent of valhalla? Who does this by choice. She was...stolen?
Put her to better use? Well, I suppose so. Good thing she agreed to that. Otherwise we would be forcing someone to resurrect the dead against their will, compelling them into an existence of shameful servitude. Thank goodness that was not at all what was happening in there. It was just Eyir allowing Sylvanas to practive her bondage technique and admiring her new fancy lantern.
While we're at it, we better wipe out the Forsaken. After all, we can use their land much better than they can. What are they going to do with it? Blight it some more? And clearly, if YOU can put something to better use, better take it. It doesn't matter if they haven't attacked you. They'll do it eventually. So what if it's of cultural importance. Or they literally base their entire existence around it. They don't deserve it.
Sylvanas was right in her aggression to them. Greymane was not. With the war over, the forsaken didn't represent a threat to his kingdom or his people. They had no interest in taking anyone else's land. Sylvanas simply wanted new valkyr to preserve the future of her people in case the alliance got any ideas of taking their land away from them.
Rank, that's so blatantly wrong. The Forsaken will always be a threat to his kingdom. The war isn't over. It's paused. Do you honestly think that when the current Forsaken start to die, Sylvanas won't go looking for more? That Gilneas, the closest nation, literally on the border, won't be her first stop? The Forsaken need to kill to go on. Their entire existence is based on people dying. If Sylvanas wants a future for her people, it will need to be built on corpses.
Human corpses.
Post by
Stabhorn
As Rank pointed out, Slyvanas' true objective would be to undo Undeath itself, thus elimanating the need for human corpses. (She's still got Val'kyr, why would she need their goddess specifically if not for true ressurection?)
To throw in my two cents; yes, the vyrkul are warmongerers who would have attacked the Horde and Alliance eventually at the Legion's behest. Yes, Genn and Rogers were incomprehensibly stupid to attack the Forsaken, even tough they were, by their own reasoning, justified. And yes, Slyvanas made a bone-headed move by going after the Val'kyr now.
Here's what both the Alliance and Horde need to realize; if the Legion is not defeated, all that they are fighting for is irrelevant. Slyvanas's schemes and Genn's vengeance are little more than foolish distractions at the moment.
Post by
Rankkor
Rank, that's so blatantly wrong. The Forsaken will always be a threat to his kingdom. The war isn't over. It's paused. Do you honestly think that when the current Forsaken start to die, Sylvanas won't go looking for more? That Gilneas, the closest nation, literally on the border, won't be her first stop? The Forsaken need to kill to go on. Their entire existence is based on people dying. If Sylvanas wants a future for her people, it will need to be built on corpses.
Human corpses.
That's right. HUMAN corpses. Not worgen. At this point, most of the gilnean nation is made of worgens, who are useless to sylvanas as meat fodder. So what reason she has to pick a fight with them?
Dear God Rank. This is absolutely amazing. You are actually saying that Sylvanas wants peace and to be left alone, even though it is canon that if she doesn't want the Forsaken to die out, she's going to need to KILL people.
I believe the term for this is "catch 22" no? She needs to kill people to avoid the forsaken dying out. But if nobody attacks her, then she doesn't really need to kill people. Does she?
But it is true that what she wants is to be left alone. I probably wouldn't stretch it to "all she wants is peace", she's not really the peacemaker type, but she does want people off her damned lawn.
That the Vyrkul DESERVE to be killed wherever they are, whatever they are doing, because there is no hope for them.
Hey I'm not the only one that thinks that. How many times must I tell you? The wardens consider them high enough of a menace to post kill-on-sight bounties for their heads. Even Odyn sends you to kill off the vrykul. And so does Vydhar while we're at it. Ya know, the literal spirit of nature of the broken isles.
You're trying to defend the rights to exist of a bunch of people who WORSHIP THE LEGION.
Understand that I'm not saying "there's no hope for them" nor that ALL vrykul have to be killed on sight, as there ARE exceptions to the norm. But THESE vrykul are NOT saintly doves. They're murderous violent vicious warmongering bloodthirsty savages that butcher everything they come across. IF someone else attacks them, its never unprovoked, as the vrykul are at war with the entirety of azeroth, and NOBODY is on their side. Except the legion. And the Lich King.
Some allies.
That Sylvanas should enslave people if she thinks it will benefit her, force them to raise the dead against their will. It's amazing!
This is what you assume she wants to do. But she doesn't say what she plans to do at all. We don't even know what her deal with Helya was. As Stabhorn pointed out, she already has normal valkyr for raising humans as undead. For all we know, maybe what she REALLY wants is the secrets of resurrection to just cure undeath at all, or she wanted the secrets of how to create new valkyrs out of Eyir. We'll never know, at least not for now.
Even if she was going to enslave her, this isn't a matter of black vs white. Warlocks enslave demons too to fight the bad guys. Should we tell them to cut that out?
While we're at it, we better wipe out the Forsaken. After all, we can use their land much better than they can. What are they going to do with it? Blight it some more? And clearly, if YOU can put something to better use, better take it. It doesn't matter if they haven't attacked you. They'll do it eventually. So what if it's of cultural importance. Or they literally base their entire existence around it. They don't deserve it.
Not the same. The forsaken are neither allies of the lich king, nor allies of the legion. They have proven before that they are willing to coexist, cooperate, and inhabit next to the other races.
I have no idea why are you defending the vrykul so fiercely here. I mean sure, its sylvanas attacking them and she's very much NOT a good guy (or even guy, period), but the fact that the one attacking them has done some truly awful things in the past doesn't diminishes that these are horrible people who EVERYONE hates, and who have earned the hatred of the world by trying to kill the world. Why are you getting so upset at someone attacking them?
I mean, sheesh, next time you're gonna get upset when someone kills the scarlet crusaders to take something they have because they need it more.
Whoops.
While we're at it, may as well get upset at killing members of the twilight hammer to take something they have that the one killing them needs more.
Ohhh wait.......
(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
Post by
cavalierTomato
Um, money, I think Rankkor is putting emphasis on true resurrection here, as in, the Forsaken need not rely on a steady supply of corpses to thrive, if only they could reverse undeath.
Enslaving anyone is wrong full stop. Finding a cure for undeath is all kinds of right. You could say that Sylvanas is doing the wrong thing for a very right reason.
And if we go by the hypothesis of true resurrection being her only goal, then it is conceivable that the Forsaken might be content to stay within their borders, once they become, with the help of an enslaved Valkyrie, a living nation of Lordaeron again.
Of course, I personally very much doubt a living nation of Lordaeron is what Sylvanas has in mind. It is simply improbable, given the evidence like the penchant for chemical WMD. Improbable, but not totally impossible.
On the other hand, if Sylvanas did want the Valkyrie to be her undead-making conveyor belt, then it is without doubt that she is no better than the first two Lich Kings.
I don't think this can be resolved without having a Sylvanas PoV text.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Well, according to Wowpedia:
Once the vault is opened, Sylvanas reveals she intends to subjugate Eyir and force her to make more val'kyr for the Forsaken.
So, yeah. That's the plan there. I can't seem to find where the true resurrection business is coming from though, so if someone could link that I'd appreciate it.
Even if she was going to enslave her, this isn't a matter of black vs white. Warlocks enslave demons too to fight the bad guys. Should we tell them to cut that out?
Not the same. Demons are always monsters due to fel corruption. It's like keeping a rabid dog on a leash. As opposed to this, which is more like chaining up a human being in the basement and stealing their children.
I mean, sheesh, next time you're gonna get upset when someone kills the scarlet crusaders to take something they have because they need it more.
The Scarlets were always belligerant and were the aggressors every. Time. Big difference here Rank. Whitemane was a constant threat to everyone. Eyir? She locks herself in a vault and only lets a champion enter to ascend them.
As for that dagger. Are you serious? Your making an equivalent of taking an old god dagger being used to try and summon a thing called Zakajz the Corruptor to enslaving a titan watcher?
I have no idea why are you defending the vrykul so fiercely here. I mean sure, its sylvanas attacking them and she's very much NOT a good guy (or even guy, period), but the fact that the one attacking them has done some truly awful things in the past doesn't diminishes that these are horrible people who EVERYONE hates, and who have earned the hatred of the world by trying to kill the world. Why are you getting so upset at someone attacking them?
Understand that I'm not saying "there's no hope for them" nor that ALL vrykul have to be killed on sight, as there ARE exceptions to the norm. But THESE vrykul are NOT saintly doves. They're murderous violent vicious warmongering bloodthirsty savages that butcher everything they come across.
Because of this disconnect. Because you're saying it's justified for Sylvanas to sail into this camp of Vyrkul, who have nothing to do with Skovold, try and wipe out the village, and enslave their god, because they are Vyrkul, and therefore are always the aggressors. Because Skovold is waging a war, and every step through Stormheim we are being told he has betrayed his culture. Because one of the few clans who HAVEN'T joined him was just attacked by Sylvanas, and you're saying it's fine for her to do it, because everyone hates them and they're vyrkul.
That is what I have a problem with. I don't give a damn that it's Sylvanas doing it, but I do care how it's being defended. You love orcs so much. But when they were nothing but ravenous monsters pouring through the Dark Portal and burning whole kingdoms, you say it was wrong for the Alliance to think of just killing them all. It's double standards Rank. And I hate hypocrisy.
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