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Ghostcrawler and the 3.3 Paladin Nerfs
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Post by
Hawkedge
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=55667
Make Ret pally consecration work like that, maybe when crusader strike hits, it puts a desecration-like effect on the ground
Post by
frmorrison
While a slowing Cons would be nice, Cons uses a lot of mana so you couldn't use it often. Still, it could be useful.
For 3.3, as long as there are no more nerfs, I am satisfied.
Post by
blademeld
Paladins too defensive in PvP
I'll add it's also a problem where paladins as a whole are too defensive and not just the Protection spec ones. You see people describing fighting a Retribution paladin as a three phase boss fight. You might get them down, but then they can reset the fight with Lay on Hands. You get them down again and they bubble and heal. Compare this to an Arms warrior -- do they do great damage in PvP? Yes. Are they invulnerable? No. It's cool for paladins to care more about healing than do warriors, for I hope obvious reasons. However, if you are up against a Holy paladin, you should know that one of your greatest challenges should be dealing with their capacity to heal. If you are up against a Prot paladin, you should be concerned with their capacity to take hits. If you are up against a Ret paladin, you should be concerned with how much damage they should deal. You should not, generally, be nearly as concerend about the Prot's ability to self-heal or the Ret's ability to tank you.
I said this recently, but to reiterate, for most of the other hybrids, picking a role in a fight is much more of a commitment. Sure the Arms warrior can go Defensive Stance and put on a shield, but that doesn't turn them into a Prot warrior. Nobody is super concerned about Feral druids shifting out to heal. We had big problems with DKs earlier being able to tank and deal damage with the same set of tools, but that's in a better place now. Shaman maybe the only other class besides paladins that are able to shift on the fly from dps to healing, but with their mail armor and lack of major defensive cooldowns they just don't feel as hard to kill. (Source)
Don't nerf me bro!
This is just “don’t nerf me, bro” talk. We have been so gentle with paladin nerfs because we’ve been so concerned with returning to lolret, that paladins as a class are still very powerful in end-game LK in both PvE and PvP. Yes, it’s not fun to be nerfed. We get that. There is very little evidence we have over-nerfed paladins at any time in the past couple of years. There is plenty of evidence that we haven’t nerfed them enough. (Source)
Again, we see a clear sign that the nerfs are based on PvP, and that PvE ret suffers due to PvP balancing.
Sure we haven't been nerfed enough, just nerfed in all the wrong places.
I think Blizzard has failed to notice they can insert talents that increase damage and decrease survival at the same time as they did with glyphs.
Ex. Crusader Strike: reduces your armor by 50% for 6 seconds after using this ability.
Divine Storm: Cannot use Divine Shield while Divine Storm is on Cooldown.
etc.
Post by
Squishalot
Sure we haven't been nerfed enough, just nerfed in all the wrong places.
QFT.
I would dispute GC's assertion that there is very little evidence of over-nerfing. DPS lists showing Rogues and DKs dishing out up to 20% more than Ret paladins throughout Ulduar should suffice, I would have thought.
Post by
blademeld
And 10-20% for warriors I might add.
Post by
Sgtpain
Ghostcrawler has obviously never tried to kill an enhancement shammy with their CDs. They are near impossible to kill for the WHOLE 45 seconds they have their wolves out. The healing they do is simply amazing and with shammy rage, well, the healing is so high from the wolves, there is no need to use that CD at the same time. So tell me, why is this different than a pally healing and blowing their CDs?
LoH is a 15 min CD, can't be used in arena, and is on such a long CD, you usually can't LoH more than once per BG. Go ahead and take away our LoH. When people realize that LoH isn't a PvP game breaker, they will move on to our bubble and so on.
My concern is that it's one less CD for me while I am tanking. Also, as usual, they can't just make a small change and give it some time, but instead, they have to make several major changes and make little to no attempt to make things better if they over did it.
Lastly, they are basing all this crap off of BGs....who the F cares what happens in a BG? Isn't arena and raids where the focus should be? Pally has NEVER been a top contender in arena, yet they are op in PvP? what a joke.
Post by
blademeld
LoH is a raid wipe prevention tool as is Divine Intervention.
The reason we have two is because LoH doesn't actually prevent wipes and Divine Intervention sucks for healers and tanks.
In other words, Blizzard didn't make the spell perfect for the job it's supposed to do, and in retrospective, they realized that.
WTT LoH and DI for reincarnation.
PS. Shamans get a free hearth on top of it.
Post by
Sgtpain
Sorry, edited alot in this...
Oh yeah, just to add, the heals from Spirit wolves are ALL FREE! A ret pally throws two Holy lights on himself and he is too low on mana for alot of attacks and another Holy Light., but a shammy with spirit wolves gets, 20+ free heals during that time?
Let's also look at the fact that shammies get int on their gear, without the expense of dps losses. When a pally casts holy Light, is costs 34% of base mana. Well, a ret pally IS at base mana, which means, each one sucks up literally 34% of his mana pool (only have about 5700-5800 mana). Shaman casts his Healing wave, which costs 32% of base mana, which is nothing, since he has int on his gear and has about 12k + mana. To make things even better, when he gets a maelstrom proc, he can cast an instant cast Healing wave, which is equal to us being able to cast an instant Holy light. Instead, we get an instant cast flash heal, which, if you're lucky, crits at 3k and some change, and leaves a small HoT, but a shammies healing wave can crit for about 7k +? Let's take into account our DS. It heals me for about 400 when it crits, give or take. So now we're up to 3500 healing on average for a proc. (Just guessing, my divine storm is off CD about as much as I get AoW procs).
How do enh shammies do in arena and BGs? Do decent in arena, maybe tied with a ret pally or a bit lower in BGs. So, they do all this great healing, have a great mana pool, but yet, somehow a dps class healing too much is surely the problem? Good healing in PvP is not the problem. Ever see a lock heal himself? It's pretty nuts, but healing is only a problem for pallies, I guess.
Lastly, pallies have plate gear. Consider all of the different types of damage incoming in PvP, like poisons, magic etc, how much % of damage is really reduced? 3%? Can a pally "tank" caster classes any better than a shammy? Can pallies "tank" an unholy DK THAT much better than a shammy, considering most of their damage is spell?
How long is a typical 1v1 fight? 1 min tops in a BG? Hmmm...spirit wolves last 45 seconds, shammy rage lasts 15 seconds. Thats 1 min worth of the ability to "tank" another player, probably just as good, if not better, than a pally. Bubble lasts 12 seconds and we get 50% less damage dealt and has a 5 min CD, and LoH is a 15 min CD. Shammy rage is 1 min CD and Spirit wolves are, mybe 3 mins?
Post by
chase123
WTT LoH and DI for reincarnation.
I hope you're kidding. I would kill to have LOH on my shaman or any of my other toons for that matter.
Post by
Sgtpain
WTT LoH and DI for reincarnation.
I hope you're kidding. I would kill to have LOH on my shaman or any of my other toons for that matter.
how many times have we seen shammies try to reincarnate in a BG, only to get plowed within seconds. lol
Seriously though, it would be a PvP nerf, but a remendous PvE buff for pallies. The ability to have an in combat rez or self rez is so powerful in PvE. There is some damage you just can't heal through with one big heal.
Post by
blademeld
As I would kill for reincarnation, although that may be a "grass is greener on the other side" thing.
Reincarnation is by far mroe useful raid utility.
Post by
Sgtpain
Wait just a minute. Didn't GC JUST say we were too offensive in 3.1? Now he is saying we're too defensive? Apparently we aren't allowed to be offensive or defensive. What about Disc priests, aren't they too defensive? lol
Post by
Rouen
GC said Ret paladins were "too bursty."
But you are right.
Those damn shiny armored, blinding aura, purified boy scouts just offend the hell out of me!
Post by
Quest
I would kill for reincarnation
Well, it does seem logical.
Post by
Quest
GC said Ret paladins were "too bursty."
Thats because he's "out of touch".
Dear CG, tell your itemization team to stop making agi gear better for plate DPS. Stop putting so much crit on plate gear.
Liquidize armp/crit/haste into AP and str for paladin only gear and some normal plate DPS gear. There you go, less bursty and more to the tune of other non-pure dps.
Im at 40% crit without trying.
Post by
blademeld
I would kill for reincarnation
Well, it does seem logical.
UNINTENTIONAL PUN WAS UNINTENTIONAL.
Post by
blademeld
Solution: Make SS not be self-castable without a talent in deep-prot.
Edit: where did the post above me go?
Post by
Squishalot
Seriously though, it would be a
PvP
BG nerf, but a remendous PvE buff for pallies.
Fixed. Arena wouldn't be touched, since we'd never use DI or LoH in there. Which is apparently where people are complaining about us, too.
Post by
trademen
I personally stopped playing my pally because I felt it was overpowered and the class in general was over populated. Any nerfs the class has comming I suggest we accept and see how people play when you actually require some planing before hand. Seriously, when your a pally you freaking feel invincible, bubble, loh, AoW healing. You can pretty much outlast anything else.
Post by
Sgtpain
GC said Ret paladins were "too bursty."
But you are right.
Those damn shiny armored, blinding aura, purified boy scouts just offend the hell out of me!
We got nerfed from taht one in PvE AND PvP though. We were given a DoT from crits, but, when it clips with another proc, you lose whatever damage was left. So, they trimmed 30% of our crit damage, and replaced it with a DoT that does a certain % over a period of time, but doesn't stack and is clipped everu time you crit, making it it technically a nerf. So, we were too "bursty", but we still haven't seen a legit fix for it.
I know, it's probably stuff you all already know. I just get worked up over it, because my pally is my main, and he's ok in world PvP and does well in BGs, but in arena, it sucks. No, I am no PvP pro, but it's common knowledge that ret doesn't go far in arena unless you're a rare elite player.
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