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The Horde needs Thrall, and this is why..
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Post by
Skreeran
I now realise most here would just think of Thrall as a passing phase and those would be just as happy yo see any new character taking the mantle of warchief, just because its something new.That's not entirely true.
The thing is, Thrall is definitely a hero and a good Warchief. But he wouldn't be where he is now without Orgrim Doomhammer. Who is/was the better Warchief is hard to determine, because they both did the best with what they had, and both saved the Horde from destruction.
and that just makes ppl regard Thrall as the middle man and easily replaced. If that wasn't the fact this thread wouldn't have gone from talking about thrall to talking about doomhammer.Actually, we started talking about Doomhammer because Darkton compared Orgrim to Hitler.
Post by
Adamsm
Fact is, your just saying that despite all he's done for his people, and it being more then even Orgrim did I'd say, in whatever way your trying to say it Thrall and what he's done/doing for the horde is being passed off as something it doesn't need anymore.
And no I'm not passing off Orgrim in the same way, I'm just stating a fact. Thrall healed the horde and made it powerful, but only with the sustained wisdom it has from him. And I have to say, its kinda nieve to believe the horde would keep as it is now if Thrall was gone for good. Because of anyone that follows garrosh's ways.. well, its gonna be the old horde all over again.
So having Saurfang, Drek'thar, and the others who believe in what Thrall is doing and being there as Advisors to Garrosh makes it the opposite? And you know, it won't be the Old Horde, I mean, Garrosh is tossing the Trolls out of the center of Orgrimmar too... if he was really going down the old path, he would keep them as well; remember, Doomhammer called them the Ogres of Azeroth.
Yes, Thrall is a good leader... but he's not 'an orc' by an stretch of the imagination; in all honesty, you can consider him a 'half-orc' due to the way he was raised: He's more human then orc after everything that's happened to him.
Post by
taurenmoo812
Fact is, your just saying that despite all he's done for his people, and it being more then even Orgrim did I'd say, in whatever way your trying to say it Thrall and what he's done/doing for the horde is being passed off as something it doesn't need anymore.
And no I'm not passing off Orgrim in the same way, I'm just stating a fact. Thrall healed the horde and made it powerful, but only with the sustained wisdom it has from him. And I have to say, its kinda nieve to believe the horde would keep as it is now if Thrall was gone for good. Because of anyone that follows garrosh's ways.. well, its gonna be the old horde all over again.
So having Saurfang, Drek'thar, and the others who believe in what Thrall is doing and being there as Advisors to Garrosh makes it the opposite? And you know, it won't be the Old Horde, I mean, Garrosh is tossing the Trolls out of the center of Orgrimmar too... if he was really going down the old path, he would keep them as well; remember, Doomhammer called them the Ogres of Azeroth.
Yes, Thrall is a good leader... but he's not 'an orc' by an stretch of the imagination; in all honesty, you can consider him a 'half-orc' due to the way he was raised: He's more human then orc after everything that's happened to him.
Don't you seem to realise that if Thrall is to be considered a 'half orc' by your standard, that same 'half orc' is the one that didn't lead his people with blood rage or want for killing, he used wisdom, foresight and intellect where other 'all orcish' leaders failed before him. And its because of him being that unique character that it saved the orcs and had them rebuild there lives, and even given them strength to fight back against the alliance, the legion and all other things before them. And yes, as much as you want to see it any other way, Doomhammer failed, the orc camps and alliance victory over them attested to them.
Post by
Skreeran
As I said before, Thrall
will
die.
The Horde will have to be weaned of his leadership sooner or later.
Post by
Adamsm
Don't you seem to realise that if Thrall is to be considered a 'half orc' by your standard, that same 'half orc' is the one that didn't lead his people with blood rage or want for killing, he used wisdom, foresight and intellect where other 'all orcish' leaders failed before him. And its because of him being that unique character that it saved the orcs and had them rebuild there lives, and even given them strength to fight back against the alliance, the legion and all other things before them. And yes, as much as you want to see it any other way, Doomhammer failed, the orc camps and alliance victory over them attested to them.
Yes... but in that exact same state of mind... how many Orcs, raised on the stories of their ancestors would actually want to follow the Human-Orc that is Thrall? Have you ever wondered if that's why Garrosh fights against the grain like he does? Because he can't fathom the mind of the Warchief, who acts against the traditions of the Orcs and prefers to use things he learned from the humans?
As I said before, Thrall
will
die.
The Horde will have to be weaned of his leadership sooner or later.
Aye, that is true as well.
Post by
159454
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
As I said before, Thrall
will
die.
The Horde will have to be weaned of his leadership sooner or later.
Yep. I want to see what happens when the half-Dark Iron grandson of Magni takes over ruling the dwarves.
A new War of the Hammers..... the Ironforge dwarves would rather die then let that happen.....
Post by
159454
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
As I said before, Thrall
will
die.
The Horde will have to be weaned of his leadership sooner or later.
Yep. I want to see what happens when the half-Dark Iron grandson of Magni takes over ruling the dwarves.
A new War of the Hammers..... the Ironforge dwarves would rather die then let that happen.....
Maybe Magni's daughter could take over instead?
She's a Dark-Iron in spirit now, they won't serve her either.
Post by
159454
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Oh....
I thought the spell wore off, but I'm prolly wrong.
Wasn't a spell; she was in love with the Emperor: She tells you to get the f-out of BRD after you 'save' her.... and this should be in the general lore thread lol.
Post by
taurenmoo812
Knock it off.
And Adam, arn't you being a hypocrite now? From someone who wrote a future story where Garrosh and Varian are killed, and Thrall becomes the warchief again.
And do you really think your be playing this game in another 25 years. How is saying 'lets have them be without the guy who saved them' even relavent?
Saurfang, Drek'thar and other 'would be' warchiefs are to old to be leading them, Garrosh is a joke and a reflection of the old horde and will lead it to ruin if he keeps power. And Thrall is younger then all of them and still a dam sight smarter.
Should I say Varian isn't cut out to leader the alliance because he's half human being taught to fight like an orc? Thats how numb that logic is.
Post by
159454
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
taurenmoo812
I don't really like Garrosh. I like Varian slightly more. Still have no idea why Thrall would give Garrosh leadership and not Saurfang, assuming Garrosh doesn't kill Thrall.
No he.. doesn't do that. He's captured by the alliance at the start of cata. Most indications seem that Garrosh takes control of the horde when Thrall is captured
Post by
159454
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
And Adam, arn't you being a hypocrite now? From someone who wrote a future story where Garrosh and Varian are killed, and Thrall becomes the warchief again.
And do you really think your be playing this game in another 25 years. How is saying 'lets have them be without the guy who saved them' even relavent?
Saurfang, Drek'thar and other 'would be' warchiefs are to old to be leading them, Garrosh is a joke and a reflection of the old horde and will lead it to ruin if he keeps power. And Thrall is younger then all of them and still a dam sight smarter.
Should I say Varian isn't cut out to leader the alliance because he's half human being taught to fight like an orc? Thats how numb that logic is.
Right, because a fan-fic is actual lore...
As for that: I'm merely thinking of things from the different angles; you can blame Skree for posing the question. Yes, for my story I had Thrall take up the mantel again, so what? That's what everyone wants anyways.
As for the comment on the old guard.... I'm sorry, is there an actual age requirement on them now? Brox was in his late 50's when he went after Sargeras after all. Saurfang and Drek'thar are alive now, and between the pair of them, they have seen more things then anyone else in the Horde.... and Tauren..... Both of these are advisors to Thrall, so, provided Garrosh doesn't kill him off, I can see them both attempting to assist the new Warchief.
Look, I want to put this in the clearest words I can: Thrall, while Important, would not consider himself above the Horde as being needed no matter: He would want them to learn to rule for themselves and not come to him with everything. The Horde is not a bunch of children who need Father Thrall for everything.... any group that lives like that is doomed for failure.
Post by
taurenmoo812
Look, I want to put this in the clearest words I can: Thrall, while Important, would not consider himself above the Horde as being needed no matter: He would want them to learn to rule for themselves and not come to him with everything. The Horde is not a bunch of children who need Father Thrall for everything.... any group that lives like that is doomed for failure.
And if the assumption that Thrall willingly gives Garrosh leadership for this reason is proven to be wrong?
This is how I see it broken down. Cataclysm happens - Thrall disappears - Garrosh takes control of the horde - Thrall found by goblins - Thrall comes back %^&*ed off at Garrosh - Thrall puts saving the world above fighting Garrosh for the mantle at that time.
If Thrall hands over leadership to Garrosh without a fight, then all that will do is having every trollers saying he really was a weakling for giving up.
Anyway, I gotta be up in the morning, so calling it a night.
Post by
Adamsm
Look, I want to put this in the clearest words I can: Thrall, while Important, would not consider himself above the Horde as being needed no matter: He would want them to learn to rule for themselves and not come to him with everything. The Horde is not a bunch of children who need Father Thrall for everything.... any group that lives like that is doomed for failure.
And if the assumption that Thrall willingly gives Garrosh leadership for this reason is proven to be wrong?
This is how I see it broken down. Cataclysm happens - Thrall disappears - Garrosh takes control of the horde - Thrall found by goblins - Thrall comes back %^&*ed off at Garrosh -
Thrall puts saving the world above fighting Garrosh for the mantle at that time.
If Thrall hands over leadership to Garrosh without a fight, then all that will do is having every trollers saying he really was a weakling for giving up.
He would in all honesty. As for the other comments... that goes with what I said: I guess the Horde must be a bunch of children who need Daddy Thrall to keep them all safe. Guess the whole deaths of Doomhammer, Durotan, and Grom was for nothing.
Post by
taurenmoo812
He would in all honesty. As for the other comments... that goes with what I said: I guess the Horde must be a bunch of children who need Daddy Thrall to keep them all safe. Guess the whole deaths of Doomhammer, Durotan, and Grom was for nothing.
Yeah because we know the draenei would have been able to escape if Velen died in rise of the horde.
And, fact of the matter is, as you can dam well see, the horde changes by the will of who is leading them, how they act and what they act upon. The reason they say 'for the warchief' is because they follow what he says and his laws, so to change the warchief is to change the horde itself, theres no other way of saying it.
Now do you understand just why Thrall is that important to the horde?
(was going to bed but couldn't let that not be said)
Post by
Adamsm
He would in all honesty. As for the other comments... that goes with what I said: I guess the Horde must be a bunch of children who need Daddy Thrall to keep them all safe. Guess the whole deaths of Doomhammer, Durotan, and Grom was for nothing.
Yeah because we know the draenei would have been able to escape if Velen died in rise of the horde.
And, fact of the matter is, as you can dam well see, the horde changes by the will of who is leading them, how they act and what they act upon. The reason they say 'for the warchief' is because they follow what he says and his laws, so to change the warchief is to change the horde itself, theres no other way of saying it.
Now do you understand just why Thrall is that important to the horde?
(was going to bed but couldn't let that not be said)
1. Yes they would have; the Draenei are not dependent on the Prophet; had Velen died, they would have continued on, might not have gotten the Broken in, which means they would have lost out on the Shamans being added to their race. But, when the Naaru arrived following the TFT, they probably would have ended up picking a new leader. I love Velen, I know he's the wisest of the wise.... but he's not indispensable; he can die, and the Draenei will carry on... same as all other races but the Forsaken.
However Tauren, in your mind, you can't have the Horde without Thrall and vice versa... but doesn't Grom's 'Horde', where Thrall learned much, kind of disprove that?
2. No, actually, seeing as there is a large group of Orcs(those who follow Garrosh), the Forsaken and to a point the Blood Elves who disagree with the way Thrall runs things.... As stated in a wide variety of threads: Thrall is not universally loved; in-game and out of game; if he was, there would be no war with the Alliance as every member of the Horde would be following his peace-plans.
As for the new Warchief... beyond 3 things: Garrosh refitting outposts and cities with the Black Metal(which in your eyes is a sign of pure evil), ordering the Forsaken to attack Gilneas, and increasing the conflicts in Ashenvale.... we don't know much about Warchief Garrosh's reign.
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