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Does Arthas truely deserve redemption?
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Post by
Morec0
CATACLYSM.
!
*Morec runs to the store to get his copy.*
Post by
Skreeran
The Horde realized their mistake and managed to free themselves.
I'll admit I'm biased. I played through Warcraft 3 and didn't like Arthas (who I saw as a $%^&y bastard who ended up disbanding the paladin, killing his father, and dooming his kingdom), I read through RotLK and didn't like Arthas (especially what he did to Sylvanas and Kael'thas). I've read part of the Death Knight Manga and didn't like Arthas, him having forced Thassarian to kill his own mother.
Overall, I just hate Arthas. I really do hate him. Frostmourne or not, I really dislike his ^&*!y attitude and the way he treats his victims. Yes, I'm a hypocrite (being a sadist myself), but I call it like I see it. Verbally taunting Kael'thas after killing his father, forcing Thassarian to kill his own mother (something that really hit home with me), and then Sylvanas' ironic plight just sealed it for me. He's not like the orcs, he's not like Garona, he's a sadistic bastard and he knows it. And he loves it.
He's past redemption.
Post by
Monday
The Horde realized their mistake and managed to free themselves.
I'll admit I'm biased. I played through Warcraft 3 and didn't like Arthas (who I saw as a $%^&y bastard who ended up disbanding the paladin, killing his father, and dooming his kingdom), I read through RotLK and didn't like Arthas (especially what he did to Sylvanas and Kael'thas). I've read part of the Death Knight Manga and didn't like Arthas, him having forced Thassarian to kill his own mother.
Overall, I just hate Arthas. I really do hate him. Frostmourne or not, I really dislike his ^&*!y attitude and the way he treats his victims. Yes, I'm a hypocrite (being a sadist myself), but I call it like I see it. Verbally taunting Kael'thas after killing his father, forcing Thassarian to kill his own mother (something that really hit home with me), and then Sylvanas' ironic plight just sealed it for me. He's not like the orcs, he's not like Garona, he's a sadistic bastard and he knows it. And he loves it.
He's past redemption.
Which is worse than sacrificing women and children to summon demons right?
Well, not with Thassarian. THAT was horrifying.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
The Horde realized their mistake and managed to free themselves.
I'll admit I'm biased. I played through Warcraft 3 and didn't like Arthas (who I saw as a $%^&y bastard who ended up disbanding the paladin, killing his father, and dooming his kingdom), I read through RotLK and didn't like Arthas (especially what he did to Sylvanas and Kael'thas). I've read part of the Death Knight Manga and didn't like Arthas, him having forced Thassarian to kill his own mother.
Overall, I just hate Arthas. I really do hate him. Frostmourne or not, I really dislike his ^&*!y attitude and the way he treats his victims. Yes, I'm a hypocrite (being a sadist myself), but I call it like I see it. Verbally taunting Kael'thas after killing his father, forcing Thassarian to kill his own mother (something that really hit home with me), and then Sylvanas' ironic plight just sealed it for me. He's not like the orcs, he's not like Garona, he's a sadistic bastard and he knows it. And he loves it.
He's past redemption.
Which is worse than sacrificing women and children to summon demons right?
Well, not with Thassarian. THAT was horrifying.Hey, those Blackrocks who did that were sadistic bastards too. Although at least they gave their victims the luxury of a quick death.
But yeah, Arthas is way up on my hate list, right below Blackmoore and above Gul'dan.
Post by
Adamsm
If Arthas is beyond redemption, its pretty #$%^ed up the Garona is not.
He did feel remorse, whatever part that could anyway. He tried to fight out of the control, but there was no way.Except his early life disproves that; Garona though, had no literal choice: She was born and raised as a servant of the Shadow Council, corrupted from the instant she was born.
Arthas was a spoiled little brat who felt that he was meant to be the savior of all Azeroth, and his own pride and pious attitude, his belief that he was right above everyone, that only he could stop the Scourge, got his soul damned and damned thousands of others. Some one like that doesn't deserve redemption as he did nothing to earn it; that whole 'small sliver of good' stuff did nothing; the Scourge still killed thousands, destroyed lives, murdered innocents. So what if the 'full might' of the Scourge wasn't on us? He still destroyed 4 different Kingdoms, murdered and tortured hundreds for no reason other then that he could.
Velen might believe in salvation for all... but in Arthas/the Lich King case, the only salvation is the same the Draenei did for the Horde in the Draenor War: Kill him, and kill him hard.
Its not Arthas that was the sadist guy, it was Ner'zhul and the Burning Legion.
No, it wasn't: Arthas turned his forces on the mercenaries he hired to help him so that he would have a convenient scape-goat to keep his men in Northrend.
Post by
Skreeran
Velen might believe in salvation for all... but in Arthas/the Lich King case, the only salvation is the same the Draenei did for the Horde in the Draenor War: Kill him, and kill him hard.QFT.
Post by
Morec0
I agree with Dark and Delt. I think everyone deserves a second chance to repent for all of their crimes.
Post by
Skreeran
I agree with Dark and Delt. I think everyone deserves a second chance to repent for all of their crimes.Meh... As I said, I'm biased, but Arthas really was an ***hole.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Velen might believe in salvation for all... but in Arthas/the Lich King case, the only salvation is the same the Draenei did for the Horde in the Draenor War: Kill him, and kill him hard.
Except that in the end, Arthas' "curse" was lifted and he clearly showed remose, as a clear signal that even though Arthas Menethil had a dubious character, nothing that he or rather that Frostmourne and the Lich Kings Ner'zhul and Arthasmorph did was with his consent. Not only that but his continued resistance to the curse was what saved Azeroth from Undeath servitude like it or not =p.
I'd dare say that his character would be changed had he survived, suffering does that with people.
Good night all.
Except he didn't get 'salvation' he got his just reward, he's heading off to the 'Dark' there to probably suffer for every kill he made, every dark act he preformed, and that's how it should be. And no he wouldn't have changed, again, he was an ass before Frostmourne, he would have remained an ass afterwards.
Post by
Monday
Velen might believe in salvation for all... but in Arthas/the Lich King case, the only salvation is the same the Draenei did for the Horde in the Draenor War: Kill him, and kill him hard.
Except that in the end, Arthas' "curse" was lifted and he clearly showed remose, as a clear signal that even though Arthas Menethil had a dubious character, nothing that he or rather that Frostmourne and the Lich Kings Ner'zhul and Arthasmorph did was with his consent. Not only that but his continued resistance to the curse was what saved Azeroth from Undeath servitude like it or not =p.
I'd dare say that his character would be changed had he survived, suffering does that with people.
Good night all.
Except he didn't get 'salvation' he got his just reward, he's heading off to the 'Dark' there to probably suffer for every kill he made, every dark act he preformed, and that's how it should be. And no he wouldn't have changed, again, he was an ass before Frostmourne, he would have remained an ass afterwards.
He was only like that when he started to fight the undead. Before that he made a conscious effort to be a better person, but once the undead came he let go because of the stress of well, y'know, having an army of the dead destroying your homeland.
Post by
Adamsm
He was only like that when he started to fight the undead. Before that he made a conscious effort to be a better person, but once the undead came he let go because of the stress of well, y'know, having an army of the dead destroying your homeland.
He broke off his engagement to Jaina because he was a coward, he was jealous of Varian because the older Human kicked his arse every time they battled growing up, he felt his father wasn't worthy to be king and it should have been him....... Arthas isn't some pious and grand holy man like Lothar or even Uther; he never wanted to be a paladin, he merely joined the order because his father wanted him to.
Post by
Monday
He was only like that when he started to fight the undead. Before that he made a conscious effort to be a better person, but once the undead came he let go because of the stress of well, y'know, having an army of the dead destroying your homeland.
He broke off his engagement to Jaina because he was a coward, he was jealous of Varian because the older Human kicked his arse every time they battled growing up, he felt his father wasn't worthy to be king and it should have been him....... Arthas isn't some pious and grand holy man like Lothar or even Uther; he never wanted to be a paladin, he merely joined the order because his father wanted him to.
Sure, all of that is true, but at least he tried to be better during that, He was ashamed at himself that he couldn't marry her and was going to try again.
In the end he tried to be like the paladins and failed. So while he failed he tried, and sincerely.
Post by
Skreeran
IC_Lich King_Fin02: You'll learn of that, firsthand. When my work is complete, you will beg for mercy and I will deny you. Your anguished cries will be testament to my unbridled power.
IC_Lich King_Fin03: I'll keep you alive to witness the end, Fordring. I would not want the Light's greatest champion to miss seeing this wretched world remade... in MY image!
Lich King: The breaking of this one has been taxing. The atrocities I have committed upon his soul. He has resisted for so long, but he will bow down before his king soon.
Arthas: After all you've put me through, woman, the last thing I'll give you is the peace of death."
"Banshee," he told her. "Thus I have made you. You can give voice to your pain, Sylvanas. I will give you that much. It is more than the others get. And in doing, you shall cause pain to others. So now you, troublesome ranger, shall serve."
Terrified beyond reason, Sylvanas hovered over her bloodied, broken corpse, gazing into her own staring eyes, then back at Arthas.
"No," she said, her voice hollowed and eerie, yet still recognizably hers. "I will never serve you, butcher."
He gestured. It was the merest thing, a twitch of a gauntleted finger. Her back arched with agony and another scream was torn from her, and she realized with a racking, raging sense of grief that she was utterly powerless before him. She was his tool, as the rotting corpses and the pale, reeking abominations were his tools.
"Arthas! Arthas, turn and fight me, damn you!"
The voice was clear and pure and full of hatred, and Arthas turned.
The elven prince was but a few yards away, his red and gold bright as blood against the unforgiving whiteness of the snow upon which they fought. He was tall and proud, his staff planted in the snow before him, his eyes fixed on Arthas. Magic crackled around him.
"You will go no further, butcher."
A muscle twitched near Arthas' eye. So Sylvanas had called him, too. He made a slight tsking sound, and grinned at the elf who had once seemed so very powerful and learned to a young human prince. His mind went back to the moment when Kael had surprised Arthas and Jaina in a kiss. The boy that Arthas had been then had known himself outmatched by the older, much more powerful mage.
Arthas was no longer a boy.
"After you disappeared in so cowardly a fashion at our last confrontation, I admit, I'm surprised to see you show your face again, Kael. Don't be upset that I stole Jaina from you. You should let that go and move on. After all, there's so much left in this world for you to enjoy. Oh wait... no there isn't."
"Damn you to hell, Arthas Menethil," Kael'thas snarled, trembling with outrage. "You've taken everything I ever cared for. Vengeance is all I have left."
He wasted no more time in venting his anger, but instead lifted the staff. The crystal affixed to its tip glowed brightly, and a ball of fire crackled in his free hand. A heartbeat later is had soared toward Arthas. Shards of ice rained down upon the death knight. Kael'thas was a master mage, and much faster than anyone Arthas had ever encountered. He barely got Frostmourne up in time to deflect the surging fiery globe. The frost shards, however, were ease itself. He swung the great runeblade over his head, and it called to its blade the shards of ice like iron shavings to a magnet. Grinning, Arthas whirled the sword over his head, directing the pieces of ice back to their sender. He'd been taken by surprise by Kael'thas's speed, but he would not make that mistake again.
"You might want to think twice about attacking me with ice, Kael," he said, laughing. He needed to goad the mage into acting rashly. Control was key to the manipulation of magic, and if Kael lost his temper, he would undoubtedly lose the fight.
Kael narrowed his eyes. "Thanks for the advice," he growled. Arthas tightened up on the reins, preparing to ride down his adversary, but at that instant the snow beneath him glowed bright orange for a moment and then became water. Invincible suddenly dropped two feet and his hooves slipped on the slick ground. Arthas leaped off and sent the beast cantering away, gripping Frostmourne with renewed determination in his right hand. He extended his left. A dark ball of swirling green energy formed in his flattened palm and sped towards Kael like an arrow shot from a bow. The mage moved to counter, but the attack was too swift. His face went a shade paler and he stumbled back, his hand going to his heart. Arthas grinned as some of the mage’s life energy flooded him.
“I took your woman,” he said, continuing to try to anger the mage, although he knew, and probably Kael knew, that Jaina had never belonged to the elf. “I held her in my arms at night. She tasted sweet when I kissed her, Kael. She--”
“Loathes you now,” Kael’thas replied. “You sicken and disgust her, Arthas. Anything she felt for you has since turned to hatred.”
Arthas’ chest contracted oddly. He realized he had not thought about how Jaina regarded him now. He had always done his best to thrust all thoughts of her away when they drifted into his mind. Was it true? Did Jaina really--
An enormous crackling ball of fire exploded against his chest, and Arthas cried out as he was forced backward by the blow. Flame licked at him for precious seconds before he recovered his wits sufficiently to counter the spell. The armor had largely protected him, although its heat against his skin was agonizing, but he was aghast that he had been so taken by surprise. A second ball of fire came, but this time he was ready, meeting the fiery blast with his own deadly ice.
“I destroyed your homeland… fouled your precious Sunwell. And I killed your father. Frostmourne sucked his soul right out of him, Kael. It’s gone forever.”
You understand, now. Despite all, Arthas, you have not abandoned me.” Tears of hope stood in those eyes and his voice, though stronger now than it had been, quavered with emotion. “There must be a reason. Arthas Menethil . . . Much harm have you done, but there is goodness in you yet. If there was none . . . I would not exist, not even in your dreams.”
He slipped off the chair and slowly walked toward the death knight. Arthas stood as he approached. For a moment, they regarded each other, the child and the man he had become.
The boy extended his arms, as if he were a living, breathing child asking to be picked up and held by a loving father. “It doesn’t have to be too late,” he said quietly.
“No,” Arthas said quietly, staring raptly at the boy. “It doesn’t.”
He touched the curve of the coy’s cheek, slipped a hand beneath the small chin and tilted the shining face. H smiled into his own eyes.
“But it is.”
Frostmourne descended. The boy cried out, his shocked, betrayed, anguished cry--that of the wind raging outside--and for a moment Arthas saw him standing there, the blade buried in his chest almost as big as he was, and felt one final tremor of remorse as he met his own eyes.
Then the boy was gone. All that remained of him was the bitter keening of the wind scouring the tormented land.
It felt… marvelous. It was only with the boy’s passing that Arthas truly realized how dreadful a burden this last struggling scrap of humanity had been. He felt lightt, powerful, purged. Scoured clean, as Azeroth would soon be. All his weakness, his softness, everything that had ever made him hesitate or second-guess himself--it was all gone, now.
The Lich King says: Last time we met, you had the advantage of fighting on holy ground. You'll find that our situation has been... reversed.
Highlord Tirion Fordring says: That might be, but I don't need to stand on holy ground to run that disembodied heart of yours through with the Ashbringer.
The Lich King says: I call your bluff. You're a paladin after all. Your obsession with redemption goes beyond the insane.
The Lich King says: You surely wouldn't destroy humanity's only chance to redeem its most wayward son. You'd sooner die!
Highlord Tirion Fordring says: The heart... the last remaining vestige of your humanity. I had to stop it from being destroyed. I had to see for myself. And at last I'm sure...
Highlord Tirion Fordring says: Only shadows from the past remain. There's nothing left to redeem!
Fordring charges the heart and runs it through with Ashbringer, knocking himself out, killing Basaleph and blasting the Lich King away as the heart explodes, dropping the Lich King down to 30% health.
By allowing me to peer into his heart, you allowed me to confirm what I needed to know. There is no Arthas Menethil anymore -- there is only the Lich King.
Explain to me how Garona is like Arthas to any degree?
And that's Arthas there. Even if Frostmourne corrupted him, that's still him talking. Garona was always efficient and killed her victims quickly, and in the case of Llane, showed a great deal of remorse.
Arthas took up Frostmourne of his own free will, despite Muradin's warning. He killed his own humanity. Everything that "corrupted" him, he did to himself. And besides, if Garona did what he did, I'd probably want her cut into tiny pieces as well.
Post by
taurenmoo812
It seems clear, that frostmourne didn't corrupt anymore then what was already there. The excuse made that it was the sword that corrupted him, it obvious all it did was inforce Arthas's will into the form of the lich king, an entity born of his persona.
Post by
Monday
It seems clear, that frostmourne didn't corrupt anymore then what was already there. The excuse made that it was the sword that corrupted him, it obvious all it did was inforce Arthas's will into the form of the lich king, an entity born of his persona.
The Lich King was already around...
Post by
taurenmoo812
It seems clear, that frostmourne didn't corrupt anymore then what was already there. The excuse made that it was the sword that corrupted him, it obvious all it did was inforce Arthas's will into the form of the lich king, an entity born of his persona.
The Lich King was already around...
Ner'zul was around. Despite being called the lich king, it wasn't until arthas put on that crown did the lich king become whole. And as you know, the dorment persona of Arthas took over ner'zul, thus making it clear Arthas's will was the driving force behind the lich king.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
I read through RotLK and didn't like Arthas (especially what he did to Sylvanas and Kael'thas).
Honestly, I'd be right there with you if you removed Fail'thas from the mix. The guy was pretty much as idiotic as Arthas, except without a runeblade.Heh... He did have a runeblade... :P
But yeah, I liked Kael. And really, Arthas taunting him about getting Jaina and killing Kael's father is just low.
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