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In Garosh's defence...
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Post by
taurenmoo812
I dont care abou the name of that A pig! ;)
Garrosh is the one to bring H on the right path - Thrall for me could be good as an advisor and diplomat but not the leader. I just hate how it looks now, this whole 'ceasefire'... Lets bring more PvP into the world, new hatred, destruction and slaughter.
>(
I had to answer this. If you honestly think a champion of the horde and its true leader would be bunked down to advisor, then you really don't get the mechanics of how the horde work.
And as was said, this won't cause more or less pvp to occur, its just pure laziness.
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367141
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382219
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218246
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514575
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Post by
HiVolt
4- All lore aside this is ideal for plot development I am by no means a blood mad warmonger in real life but I find this change of direction refreshing. It is called WARcraft after all not "hold your enemy's hand"-craft. The "tenuos peace" just wasn't working out when the game's main theme was WAR hence the name WARcraft.
Fight against the Burning Legion = not a war?
Fight against the Scourge = not a war?
Fight against the various evil dragonflights = not a war?
The people promoting this "Alliance vs. Horde war" thing fail to recognize the myriad other conflicts going on, in which the Horde and Alliance have equal interest in winning. These are enemies who wish both entities dead, along with everything else in the worlds of Warcraft. It makes sense for two relatively good factions to join together, or at least cease hostilities, while much larger and threatening foes remain. WC3 wasn't purely Horde vs. Alliance, either. Was that not really Warcraft, then?
This isn't plot development, it's plot laziness. It's going back to what was done before. And it isn't even very well done. Varian has some reason to be angry at the Horde, but he is ruler only of the human part of the Alliance. The dwarves and gnomes might rightly follow him, but I don't see the Night Elves going into all-out-war mode until the orcs begin pushing too hard (and this despite Grom killing Cenarius), and I especially do not see the draenei doing this. Hell, Velen helped purify the Sunwell, the fount of energy of the race who were causing the draenei the most problems in BC.
Indeed, the events you mentioned are wars, but if you think that plot laziness is coming about by having the Alliance and the Horde go back to war, you're sadly mistaken.
As of now, the "working for the greater good" angle has gotten extremely stale. To not rekindle the old flames that started the series at this point would be a mistake, because it serves to further flatten the storyline.
When you have a game where there are two
opposing
factions, but not a full-blown war, the storyline for a cold war can only go on for so long before complete peace or complete war comes about. With all of the open conflicts that the Horde and Alliance have had between one another in the past few years that this game has been out, not having war between them is a completely ridiculous idea.
In reality, once the first stone was thrown in any of the battlegrounds, it would have been cause for either faction to go to full war with the other.
On the short of it: Tenuous peace is boring; war is interesting.
To the topic:
I agree with the war wholeheartedly, but I want a more developed character for a Warchief.
Garrosh : an interesting and developed character :: an infant : Aristotle
(For now, anyway... I'm not saying that he can't be turned into an interesting character.)
Post by
Arikan
I see this simply as faction balance.
The Alliance now has a petulant idiot as their de-facto leader (Varian), so the Horde needs one too for the sake of balance.
They both suck. They both need to grow up. They both don't have the common sense that God gave a watermelon. The Horde is still better.
(Ok, the last one may be my bias, but I stand by the rest 100%)
Post by
qqmoar
Yeah, Garrosh is going to be a wonderful leader, I'm sure that kicking half of the Horde from their capital is going to unite them against the Alliance, and when things start to fall apart under his hands, he definitely won't do something desperate and completely retarded like taking a big gulp of a pit lord's blood.
Post by
48586
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Post by
taurenmoo812
...he definitely won't do something desperate and completely retarded like taking a big gulp of a pit lord's blood.
Every son does not have to follow his father's footsteps :o
Indeed. Garrosh will be a proper #$%^&* compared to Grom and won't have redemption for his mistakes. Renault Mograine anyone?
Post by
389990
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Post by
Monday
Honestly i dont care who started. But i am and always will be horde and will therefore support Garrosh with all my might!
for the horde!
Horde =/= Garrosh
I have no idea where you are getting that from.
Post by
367020
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Post by
taurenmoo812
I take pride in being a horde fan that's able to see that the old horde were twisted, manipulated, and it wasn't until Thralls leadership were they truely free. After all, the orcs couldn't say there chains were broken until after there were free of there blood curse.
The old horde, that people believe was meant to represent the hordes strangth, was a facade. anyone, like characters in lore or fans of the lore, who can't see that fact and only at how the old horde were brutal and savage and warlike, have overlooked the one major point of it. That they, the orcs, were not free people until after that time. Even Grom, in a want for power, gave into the legions manipulation again, and almost lost it for good, more a weakness then strength.
Post by
Adamsm
There have been three 'Hordes':
The original civilization of the orcs; the nomads who stayed away from the other clans except for the yearly gatherings to keep interclan blood shed to a minimum, the same clans that unfortunately, in a few cases, would drown those who were born sickly and weak, the same groups who stayed away from the Draenei except for a bit of trading. Most of those are the Mag'har now, and that would include Draenosh and Garrosh.
The Dark Horde; those corrupted by the Legion and Gul'dan and his warlocks, the worst of the worst of all the Horde, even though some felt that what they were doing was wrong deep down inside.
Thrall's Horde: Those Horde who sprang up after the cleansing of Grom, who follow Thrall and what he learned from Drek'thar, Doomhammer, Grom, and a few others.
So, some people, when they speak of the Old Horde, are talking about the first one.. myself included.
Post by
taurenmoo812
There have been three 'Hordes':
The original civilization of the orcs; the nomads who stayed away from the other clans except for the yearly gatherings to keep interclan blood shed to a minimum, the same clans that unfortunately, in a few cases, would drown those who were born sickly and weak, the same groups who stayed away from the Draenei except for a bit of trading. Most of those are the Mag'har now, and that would include Draenosh and Garrosh.
The Dark Horde; those corrupted by the Legion and Gul'dan and his warlocks, the worst of the worst of all the Horde, even though some felt that what they were doing was wrong deep down inside.
Thrall's Horde: Those Horde who sprang up after the cleansing of Grom, who follow Thrall and what he learned from Drek'thar, Doomhammer, Grom, and a few others.
So, some people, when they speak of the Old Horde, are talking about the first one.. myself included.
perhaps, but fact was, the orc of draenor were not a warlike race, until they became corrupted. The 'they drowned there sickly and weak' was a tribal thing, one that wasn't practied in clans like the frostwolves, so it wasn't a custom to all orcs as you claim.
but, those who I'm discribing are clearly talking about the warlike dark horde, even Garrosh see's it that the dark horde to him represented strength, under that facade, and not seeing that they were puppets lead on by dark forces.
And as this is what Garrosh see's as the time the horde was at its strongest, under the manipulation of the legion and gul'dan, he clearly wants the horde to be 'that' horde, ignoring that horde was, as said, just puppets.
Post by
Adamsm
perhaps, but fact was, the orc of draenor were not a warlike race, until they became corrupted. The 'they drowned there sickly and weak' was a tribal thing, one that wasn't practied in clans like the frostwolves, so it wasn't a custom to all orcs as you claim.
Right.. but they weren't the sun and rainbow types either; they fought for survival and for land/hunting/what have you, same as any tribal culture would. They knew fighting against the predators of Draenor, including the Gronn and Ogres.
but, those who I'm discribing are clearly talking about the warlike dark horde, even Garrosh see's it that the dark horde to him represented strength, under that facade, and not seeing that they were puppets lead on by dark forces.
And as this is what Garrosh see's as the time the horde was at its strongest, under the manipulation of the legion and gul'dan, he clearly wants the horde to be 'that' horde, ignoring that horde was, as said, just puppets.While that is what they are after, you still don't have concrete proof that Garrosh is like that; as said in another thread; the Orcs of Draenor respected strength and power, so casting out the 'weaker' races is something you'd have seen in the Warsong clan pre-corruption. Yes, the Mag'har raised should know better, but we haven't seen much of their life growing up beyond the brief passage in Beyond the Dark Portal, but probably they learned about their clans before the corruption, as the Greatmother spoke about something along those lines.
Yes, Garrosh is a newb when it comes to commanding massive armies... but are you saying that he spent the last year or so with Saurfang as his second and didn't learn anything from the old warrior?
Post by
taurenmoo812
Right.. but they weren't the sun and rainbow types either; they fought for survival and for land/hunting/what have you, same as any tribal culture would. They knew fighting against the predators of Draenor, including the Gronn and Ogres.
I'm sorry but.. do you often assume I'm trying to paint the orcs as sun and rainbows kind of race? Do you think I overlook there more savage quailities? Well I'll clear this up and say I don't overlook the darker elements of the orcs, but neither do I keep trying to paint them as what a certain block chin king would.
While that is what they are after, you still don't have concrete proof that Garrosh is like that; as said in another thread; the Orcs of Draenor respected strength and power, so casting out the 'weaker' races is something you'd have seen in the Warsong clan pre-corruption. Yes, the Mag'har raised should know better, but we haven't seen much of their life growing up beyond the brief passage in Beyond the Dark Portal, but probably they learned about their clans before the corruption, as the Greatmother spoke about something along those lines.
Yes, Garrosh is a newb when it comes to commanding massive armies... but are you saying that he spent the last year or so with Saurfang as his second and didn't learn anything from the old warrior?
If that also was a matter of fact that the uncorrupt brown orcs of draenor represented strength and power, why then did Garrosh not see that in his own people back in nagrand, until Thrall came and told him the story of his father. He was obviously inspited by his fathers actions, despite being corrupt up until he sacrificed himself, and not by his own people.
You also should take clear notice of the conversation between Saurfang and Garrosh in warsong hold, since its there well Varok shows his want to never repeat the mistakes of the past, Garrosh only sees the orcs past actions as a thing of strength, even the slaughter of draenei children.
Post by
Adamsm
I'm sorry but.. do you often assume I'm trying to paint the orcs as sun and rainbows kind of race? Do you think I overlook there more savage quailities? Well I'll clear this up and say I don't overlook the darker elements of the orcs, but neither do I keep trying to paint them as what a certain block chin king would.Honestly... yes. You act like the orcs never held a weapon till they were corrupted, that they didn't know anything about fighting among themselves. You've said before that aggression is a thing of the past for the orcs... but it's not, it's still a huge part of them, even Thrall has it, he just keeps it buried deep under his training at the hands of Blackmoore. The only difference between Garrosh and Thrall is the way they were raised. And I've never painted the Horde as 'dark as Varian' tries to, I merely look at things from the long view.
If that also was a matter of fact that the uncorrupt brown orcs of draenor represented strength and power, why then did Garrosh not see that in his own people back in nagrand, until Thrall came and told him the story of his father. He was obviously inspited by his fathers actions, despite being corrupt up until he sacrificed himself, and not by his own people.
You also should take clear notice of the conversation between Saurfang and Garrosh in warsong hold, since its there well Varok shows his want to never repeat the mistakes of the past, Garrosh only sees the orcs past actions as a thing of strength, even the slaughter of draenei children.We don't know that; I though the fact that Thrall showed him the truth about his father was what snapped him out of the funk and the despair that his father lead his people down a path of great darkness, even if it was the fault of the Shadow Council and Gul'dan for the overall corruption.
And I did mention the conversation.... the same one where Saurfang threatens to kill Garrosh if he ever leads the Horde back down that path. Are you saying that Saurfang has had no effect on him?
But again, it's too early to make assumptions about all of this; it's better to wait for the real information to come out and find out just what happens to Garrosh, as the small bit of information we do have hasn't said that Garrosh will be a fel orc after all, that's another assumption... and you know what they say about assuming things.
Post by
367020
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