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Roles and homogenization
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Post by
Hyperspacerebel
This
article from Wow.com got me thinking. Why does there even need to be homogenization at all?
Most WoW players have been brought up (game-wise) with the notion that all tanks, healers, and dps need to be balanced for all encounters. Shaman complained when they started falling behind in AoE fights, Pallies complained because they wanted higher dps instead of being a supportive buff-bot class, etc.
What if this was all thrown away? Make Deathknights anti-magic tanks. Make Warriors single target tanks. Make Paladins AoE tanks (and so on, through all the roles).
With the dual-spec around now, raiding would become a much more versatile and non-linear affair. Let the Deathknight shine tanking the magic boss. The Pally tank won't care, he gets to shine tanking the waves of adds that comprise the next boss. Make a boss that alternates between magic and melee and the Warrior and Deathknights could shine together.
The same line of reasoning can be applied to dps and healers.
So why this move towards homogenization, when we could be moving to something that would be, in my opinion, a lot more fun and rewarding?
Post by
108385
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
I would see this working if it weren't for PvP. In PvE the end goal really is to get better gear. But with PvP, classes like having to ability to fight and feel as though it's their skill that was the cause of the outcome, not the fact that they're class was just the hard/easy counter for the other.
Why not? Why does a Deathknight need to go faceroll everyone? Wouldn't it take even more skill to avoid those pesky front-liners and get to those juicy casters standing in the back? PvP does not necessarily have to mean you can kill anybody you want, does it?
I'd love a PvP system based around roles. Not only would that make it more fun on a individual level; but it would also take team-play to a whole new level.
Imagine a world where priests were super vulnerable to melee, but could practically ignore spell-casters; and it was just the opposite for paladins? Wouldn't that change the whole notion of a pocket healer? Wouldn't that make for more strategic defenses based around protecting one's weaknesses, and make for more strategic offenses that aim to exploit them?
Post by
Denkou
I never really saw homogenization as a problem until WotLK hit. In my eyes, Blizzard basically caved into popular demand, simple as that. Class X wanted to be able to do what Class Y can do, Blizzard gave them a Class Y ability, Class Y QQs that their spots are being taken, Blizzard gives them a Class Z ability, etc. etc. etc.
*note that when I say 'ability', it may not necessarily refer to a specific ability, as in a class spell, but rather the state of being able to do something
Post by
108385
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Denkou
Well in arena I feel like it's already come to what you've suggested, it's nigh impossible to beat certain comps unless you have their counter, which makes me feel as though my skill means nothing and I don't find it very fair. But in scenarios like b.g's when it feels like everybody has 4 stuns, 3 silences, a movement impairing effect with no DR and the ability to get out of combat, I wish that there were actual blatant counters.
Arena has always been that way. I know it sucks for the people who do it for fun and just want points and gear on the side, but it's nothing new to serious PvPers. Personally, I'm not too worried about it, as I'm not a huge fan of Arenas in the first place.
BGs and PvE are definitely a different story though. Remember when Mortal Strike was the only ability that reduced healing done to the target? Yeah, those were the days...
Post by
303016
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Post by
Onijitsu
I am of two minds on the idea of homogenization. (Let me apologize for the long reply... but it's never easy to communicate a mindset)
First, I think that some degree of homogenization was necessary. It seems that, with WoW v1.x, the Roles were not so strongly defined. Or rather, they were so sharply defined, that ONLY certain classes could perform them. (And other classes could do a little bit of something else, and then add their own abilities to the mix, and help out the other classes which were purely for those roles. You had Priests as the prime Healers, and Warriors as the prime Tanks, for instance. Shamans and Druids (and maybe Paladins) could toss in a bit on the Heal side, and Paladins could off-tank. But these classes couldn't apparently be primary Healers or Tanks back then.
Trying to build a raiding group in WoW v1.x was a nightmare, from all I've heard and read. Where is X? We've GOT TO have an X! Someone get out there and recruit an X or else we can't do Y! And to this end, some degree of homogenization was necessary. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong)
However? Now that Blizzard has made it so that the various Healers can all decently Heal in many situations, and the various Tanks can decently Tank in many situations, that's as far as we need to go. I like that
the different classes take different approaches to the same Roles
. I like that some classes may be a better Healer or Tank in a certain situation. That kind of thing is flavor. It is variety. It makes each class SHINE, under different circumstances. Move over Gungawarriorz, it's JohnQPaladin's turn to Tank this instance. (Or, if JohnQPaladin isn't in our guild, then you're going to have to think about this, this and this, and the rest of us are going to have to deal with these other issues to compensate.) These are the kinds of things which keep the game
fresh and fun
.
I think a lot of players always have "Grass is Greener" syndrome... only, they don't want to go roll an X; they want Blizzard to transplant some of that supposedly greener grass to their already-existing toon. And most of the whiners and screamers (OMFG U NERFD ME! I'M CLOSING MI ACCT TOOMURROW!) don't really have much of a concept of class balance. Most of them, I would argue, don't really care about fairness... In fact, their concept of fairness is being able to faceroll anything else in PvP, and to be able to top the DPS/HPS/TPS meters without having to know their class and use their abilities and talents to their maximum potential.
And Blizzard seems to feel this way too. Because, we're apparently going to be MUCH more reliant upon the old CC abilities, and other class- and role-specific abilities, than we were in WOTLK. It'll be much more like the days of Burning Crusade, from what I hear. Thank friggin' goodness. One of the reasons I play my Warlock so little, and have been leveling up my Resto-Shammy, is because I eventually got bored of hitting the same six buttons in some semi-sequence, over and over again. I get my Warlock's two random frosties, every day, and then I spend the rest of my time working on my Shaman.
Post by
Toldry
If WoW was like TF2 where once you want to play a different class, you simply change to it, and not reroll to it and spend days getting to the same level as your current character, then I would agree.
Post by
366971
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Post by
542541
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Dks tanking magic, warriors tanking solo and palas tanking grps?
what about my furry pal? do you hate animals? huh?
(and so on, through all the roles)
I'm not leaving anyone out on purpose.
Post by
488155
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
So what does the anti-magic tank do while the raid fights a physical damage boss? DPS? Some of like to do pvp and can't have a DPS and a tank spec at the same time.
The exact same thing that off-tanks do now in fight that don't require all the tanks. They hit the boss, and try not to pull aggro. They wouldn't be doing very much damage as tank or dps if it's a physical boss, not magic.
Post by
Denkou
So what does the anti-magic tank do while the raid fights a physical damage boss? DPS? Some of like to do pvp and can't have a DPS and a tank spec at the same time.
That's the thing. People are complaining to Blizzard "I want to be able to do this, this, AND this!" The old answer would have been to respec. It's a lot better now with dual specialization; back then, some people would blow hundreds, maybe even thousands of gold
a week
just so they can raid on raid nights and PvP on their off time. Some people even had to respec from Healer/Tank to DPS spec for raids, depending on what was needed for which bosses on certain nights.
Don't get me wrong, dual specialization is a great idea and I'm all for it. The problem is, people got used to being able to fulfill two different roles with the click of a button, and then they started to ask for more and more.
Post by
488155
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Avallen
I don't the issue is so much in the fact that everyone wants to be able to do everything. I think it's more of a step towards the concept of "bring the player, not the class" - at least, for PvE.
Nowadays, my guild can get 25 online and, for the most part, we can shift specs around so that we have a functional raid group. That wasn't the case in BC. There aren't very many Wrath raids where you
need
a specific class to beat a boss - the only one that comes to mind is Razuvious in Naxx25. I'm sure there are others, but my point stands.
I'm not for making every class even straight across the board, but I think that all tanks should be capable of playing the role of main tank. I think all healers should have some manner of AoE healing. I'm not saying that every healer be great AoE healers
and
single target healers, nor should all tanks have awesome AoE threat
and
single target threat, but I think it should exist in some capacity instead of being an impossibility.
For an idea of what I mean by impossibility, consider two feral druids trying to add tank in Mount Hyjal during BC.
Post by
Monday
i think we should have 3 specs...What's the logic of having to go back to your trainer each time and repick all your talents? What purpose does that serve? How does it make the game more fun?
So you have a set roll? So you can't do everything and anything at the same time?
Post by
Avallen
Don't feed the trolls. :P
Don't understand why he hasn't just been banned, he's had so many of his own threads locked for obvious flamebaiting.
Post by
403403
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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