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Why Your Religion?
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Post by
Squishalot
So if I don't believe that, I may as well not believe in God?
Edit: Actually, that has a lot less reasonable doubt than any Religions to me, because it says why we would think contrary, or why we think there is evidence contrary.
No evidence. In fact, there's probably evidence to the contrary. Camera's untouched, tape is the same one you put in, etc.
Some things in life are mutually exclusive. God and the scientific evidence we have aren't though.
This isn't just about God, that's the whole reason I made this thread. This is about arguing for your religion solely. Biblical Christianity and scientific evidence are incredibly conflicting.
Yes, but you need to take my comments in context. The Santa Claus comment was in relation to the existence of a God, not specifically Biblical Christianity. Because Santa isn't an appropriate comparison to Biblical Christianity, but is an appropriate comparison to a nebulous nonspecific God.
Perhaps he uses people to do his work for him. Maybe he influences their thoughts to get me the things I want on Christmas. After all, when I misbehave, the quality of my presents actually does go down, and I get the best things when I do good things, so he must be watching me...
All things considered, the institution that is Santa Claus does do that, indeed, and it's a marketer's dream ;)
But in that light - even if the big guy in the red suit isn't actually real, does the institution of Santa Claus have any positives that make it worthwhile? Or will you teach your kids that Santa doesn't exist, right from the get go?
Post by
Squishalot
I said I was going to go back when I had time, so here it is.
The Hebrews already had an innate homophobia (because you're right, it's not totally religious in nature) and Moses, being an extremist, declared that not only were the people's suspicions correct, and that there was something wrong with these people, but that they were an abomination to god and they had to be killed.
This is my point. Religion can't and won't force you to do something that you're objectionable to. The Hebrews already wanted to stone the homosexuals, and religion just gave them a cover story for it. In my mind, they probably already did in the first place.
Oh, it's religion, alright.
When your parents teach you
that gods hates gay people, that they will burn in hell, that evolution is wrong and creationism is right, that these are the End Times and that the Red Sea literally parted and Balem's donkey literally spoke to him, you adopt the same beliefs.
The emboldened words point out everything that is wrong about your first statement. That's not religion, that's having stupid parents.
This is my point that I've been trying to drill into your head. Just because 26.3% of Americans are Evangelical Christians who have no idea, doesn't mean that Christians generally all believe that. You're stereotyping based on what you see around you - which is understandable, but not scientific.
However, I believe the first step to change is to get mad. Passive, nice people get pushed aside. Quite voices get drowned out.
Look at the civil right movement. That didn't start because people were nice and quite and respectful. It happened because people had had enough and decided to do something about it. Only people who are passionate about the issues can make any real change, not the quite people asking nicely to please stop the persecution.
I'm fairly certain those words echo a certain Osama Bin Laden, or words to that effect at least. You can keep justifying your anger all you like, but it doesn't look good, nor does it serve your argument that you're a rational, logical thinking person.
Post by
Monday
I just re-read all your posts in this thread, and I can't find any evidence. Please provide a link, or repost it and we'll discuss it.
Various stories and encounters. Answers to my prayers etc.
You have directly observed God answering your prayers, or the events you prayed would happen happened? There is a massive difference. What if said things happening was simply a placebo effect caused by your faith in God?
There have bee multiple times I would not have survived in the hospital, where no medicine worked or treatments were effective. My family would fast and pray, along with the people in the temple who would pray for me, and I would get better.
Countless times I have seen priesthood prayers work. I would be on no medicine, and I would get prayed over and my disease would be gone four/five hours later. Even things like pneumonia have left after I have gotten prayed over.
And I'm not going to argue about prayers anymore. Most people are convinced they don't work, while I am convinced they are. We will get nowhere.
Post by
Skreeran
But in that light - even if the big guy in the red suit isn't actually real, does the institution of Santa Claus have any positives that make it worthwhile? Or will you teach your kids that Santa doesn't exist, right from the get go?I won't lie to my children and watch their hearts be broken when they find out that I was lying to them.
This is my point. Religion can't and won't force you to do something that you're objectionable to. The Hebrews already wanted to stone the homosexuals, and religion just gave them a cover story for it. In my mind, they probably already did in the first place.And my point was that, while they might have had some innate homophobia from the start, religion whipped it into a frothy seething hatred, much in the sense that Hitler and his propaganda ministry transformed a suspicion and mistrust of Jews into outright genocide.
he emboldened words point out everything that is wrong about your first statement. That's not religion, that's having stupid parents.
This is my point that I've been trying to drill into your head. Just because 26.3% of Americans are Evangelical Christians who have no idea, doesn't mean that Christians generally all believe that. You're stereotyping based on what you see around you - which is understandable, but not scientific.My parents did it because they believed that religion was absolute, 100% truth, and that they would be being neglectful if they didn't teach the truth to their children. My parents had good intentions. It is the lie that I hate.
I'm fairly certain those words echo a certain Osama Bin Laden, or words to that effect at least. You can keep justifying your anger all you like, but it doesn't look good, nor does it serve your argument that you're a rational, logical thinking person.
You did read
that article
by Greta Christine, right?
Which brings me to the other part of this little rant: Why atheist anger is not only valid, but valuable and necessary.
*****
There's actually a simple, straightforward answer to this question:
Because anger is always necessary.
Because anger has driven every major movement for social change in this country, and probably in the world. The labor movement, the civil rights movement, the women's suffrage movement, the modern feminist movement, the gay rights movement, the anti-war movement in the Sixties, the anti-war movement today, you name it... all of them have had, as a major driving force, a tremendous amount of anger. Anger over injustice, anger over mistreatment and brutality, anger over helplessness.
I mean, why the hell else would people bother to mobilize social movements? Social movements are hard. They take time, they take energy, they sometimes take serious risk of life and limb, community and career. Nobody would #$%^ing bother if they weren't furious about something.
So when you tell an atheist (or for that matter, a woman or a queer or a person of color or whatever) not to be so angry, you are, in essence, telling us to disempower ourselves. You're telling us to lay down one of the single most powerful tools we have at our disposal. You're telling us to lay down a tool that no social change movement has ever been able to do without. You're telling us to be polite and diplomatic, when history shows that polite diplomacy in a social change movement works far, far better when it's coupled with passionate anger. In a battle between David and Goliath, you're telling David to put down his slingshot and just... I don't know. Gnaw Goliath on the ankles or something...And so on... That is how I feel.
There have bee multiple times I would not have survived in the hospital, where no medicine worked or treatments were effective. My family would fast and pray, along with the people in the temple who would pray for me, and I would get better.
Countless times I have seen priesthood prayers work. I would be on no medicine, and I would get prayed over and my disease would be gone four/five hours later. Even things like pneumonia have left after I have gotten prayed over.
And I'm not going to argue about prayers anymore. Most people are convinced they don't work, while I am convinced they are. We will get nowhere.I've got
an article
for you too.
Long story short, I guess it just sucks to be the kid with incurable agonizing bone cancer who doesn't get healed.
Post by
Monday
Long story short, I guess it just sucks to be the kid with incurable agonizing bone cancer who doesn't get healed.
My protection program wouldn't let me in the link.
A. Just because they pray doesn't mean they will get healed. If it is the will of God they will, otherwise...
B. If it's incurable then we won't get healed.
C. How strong was his faith?
D. Was he anointed with consecrated olive oil?
E. Was the blessing sealed with the Melchizedek priesthood in the name of Christ?
No?
And for those of you who say religion only brings evil into the world...
Post by
Skreeran
Long story short, I guess it just sucks to be the kid with incurable agonizing bone cancer who doesn't get healed.
My protection program wouldn't let me in the link.
A. Just because they pray doesn't mean they will get healed. If it is the will of God they will, otherwise...
B. If it's incurable then we won't get healed.
C. How strong was his faith?
D. Was he anointed with consecrated olive oil?
E. Was the blessing sealed with the Melchizedek priesthood in the name of Christ?
No?
And for those of you who say religion only brings evil into the world...
I can guarantee you that even mormons can get congenital cancer.
And I feel bad for you. It seems that many atheist sites are blocked on your filter just for being atheist.
Post by
Monday
Long story short, I guess it just sucks to be the kid with incurable agonizing bone cancer who doesn't get healed.
My protection program wouldn't let me in the link.
A. Just because they pray doesn't mean they will get healed. If it is the will of God they will, otherwise...
B. If it's incurable then we won't get healed.
C. How strong was his faith?
D. Was he anointed with consecrated olive oil?
E. Was the blessing sealed with the Melchizedek priesthood in the name of Christ?
No?
And for those of you who say religion only brings evil into the world...
I can guarantee you that even mormons can get congenital cancer.
And I feel bad for you. It seems that many atheist sites are blocked on your filter just for being atheist.
What? All it ways is Adult/Mature content.
The filter is K9 for those of you who were wondering.
I can guarantee you that even mormons can get congenital cancer.
Yup. And they die. Again, just because you pray doesn't mean you will be healed.
Post by
Orranis
I can guarantee you that even mormons can get congenital cancer.
Yup. And they die. Again, just because you pray doesn't mean you will be healed.
How and why does God choose?
Even then, why does he choose only Mormons?
If I was a emergency medicine doctor, if I didn't save someone because they were republican I would be seen as a pretty big $%^&*!@.
Then again, God works in mysterious ways, and whatever he does is the morally correct thing to do, amirite?
Post by
Skreeran
What? All it ways is Adult/Mature content.
The filter is K9 for those of you who were wondering.There was another atheist site that it blocked, if I recall correctly. Try going to Richarddawkins.net, or Atheists.org, see if those are blocked.
It's possible I'm totally mistaken, in which case I apologize.
I can guarantee you that even mormons can get congenital cancer.
Yup. And they die. Again, just because you pray doesn't mean you will be healed.And thus it is in no way evidence that faith healing works, just that some people recover while others don't, which can be explained scientifically.
Why would god give kids bone cancer anyway?
Post by
Monday
I can guarantee you that even mormons can get congenital cancer.
Yup. And they die. Again, just because you pray doesn't mean you will be healed.
How and why does God choose?
Even then, why does he choose only Mormons?
If I was a emergency medicine doctor, if I didn't save someone because they were republican I would be seen as a pretty big $%^&*!@.
Then again, God works in mysterious ways, and whatever he does is the morally correct thing to do, amirite?
False.
If you use the techniques and oil you are more likely to get a result as it is a prayer for healing. Normal prayer works, but not at the same level.
How and why does God choose?
How am I supposed to know?
Then again, God works in mysterious ways, and whatever he does is the morally correct thing to do, amirite?
Sure.
Post by
Squishalot
I won't lie to my children and watch their hearts be broken when they find out that I was lying to them.
I agree. I won't teach my kids to thumb their noses and look down on and disrespect the kids who do believe though.
And my point was that, while they might have had some innate homophobia from the start, religion whipped it into a frothy seething hatred, much in the sense that Hitler and his propaganda ministry transformed a suspicion and mistrust of Jews into outright genocide.
I disagree with you here, but we'll have to agree to disagree in this case. Killing or maiming people for crimes was par for the course in the old days, even for non-religious reasons.
My parents did it because they believed that religion was absolute, 100% truth, and that they would be being neglectful if they didn't teach the truth to their children. My parents had good intentions. It is the lie that I hate.
Again, it's your parents' perception of religion. Most Christians I know don't believe in the Young Earth Creationism idea. I would disown my girlfriend if she thought that. Religion adapts. Young Earth might have been the interpretation previously, but as far as I'm aware, the Christian powers that be have adapted the interpretation of the Bible to remain in line with evolution.
Again, take your hatred out on the Evangelist Christians, and don't tar everybody else with the same brush.
You did read that article by Greta Christine, right?
I did. And I disagree with her. I think the concept of getting angry is populist, illogical and irrational. It gets results, but at what cost? You turn into the same monsters that you're disclaiming. You can take a leaf out of the Jedi's principles - anger turns to hate, and hate turns to the dark side. With your anger and hate, you're turning into someone whose principles and morals and values are no better than the guys who flew into the World Trade Centre (be they extremist Muslim, government conspiracy or otherwise).
So by being angry and hateful, you're no better than the religious people you deride. And I personally thought your aim was to be better than that. Tell me if I'm wrong, and I'll stop trying to convince you to be a good person, by any moral standard.
Post by
Monday
Why would god give kids bone cancer anyway?
It is their genetics/their parents genes.
There was another atheist site that it blocked, if I recall correctly. Try going to Richarddawkins.net, or Atheists.org, see if those are blocked.
It's possible I'm totally mistaken, in which case I apologize.
It let me in.
And thus it is in no way evidence that faith healing works, just that some people recover while others don't, which can be explained scientifically.
God chooses. Those who have faith will be healed, while those who don't have faith may not.
And for the record, we don't just pray and hope we get better. We use modern medical science as well, and add our prayers to that.
Post by
Orranis
Why would god give kids bone cancer anyway?
It is their genetics/their parents genes.
Well, gee, how in the hell did it get there? Perhaps it could be by... Chance? *Gasp*
Sorry, this just seems like such a bad answer to the question.
Post by
Squishalot
There was another atheist site that it blocked, if I recall correctly. Try going to Richarddawkins.net, or Atheists.org, see if those are blocked.
It's possible I'm totally mistaken, in which case I apologize.
It let me in.
Lol at Skreeran's anti-atheism internet filters!
Skree, Greta Christina write sex fiction. The 'books of ' on the right read out: "Best Erotic Comics 2009", "Best Erotic Comics 2008", and "Paying for It: A Guide by Sex Workers for Their Clients".
It's going to be blocked by plenty of web filters.
Post by
Skreeran
I agree. I won't teach my kids to thumb their noses and look down on and disrespect the kids who do believe though.I agree. I believe in minimal indoctrination of children. My own hatred of religion and blind faith is my own, and I'm going to let my children be themselves, not just what I train them to be.
Again, it's your parents' perception of religion. Most Christians I know don't believe in the Young Earth Creationism idea. I would disown my girlfriend if she thought that. Religion adapts. Young Earth might have been the interpretation previously, but as far as I'm aware, the Christian powers that be have adapted the interpretation of the Bible to remain in line with evolution.
Again, take your hatred out on the Evangelist Christians, and don't tar everybody else with the same brush.I hate all religion, and the very concept of blind faith in an invisible man who judges you all the time despite there being no evidence at all for such a thing. Blind faith is human ignorance in its purest form, in my eyes.
Evangelist christians just bear the brunt of my hatred because they're the ones I have to deal with.
I did. And I disagree with her. I think the concept of getting angry is populist, illogical and irrational. It gets results, but at what cost? You turn into the same monsters that you're disclaiming. You can take a leaf out of the Jedi's principles - anger turns to hate, and hate turns to the dark side. With your anger and hate, you're turning into someone whose principles and morals and values are no better than the guys who flew into the World Trade Centre (be they extremist Muslim, government conspiracy or otherwise).
So by being angry and hateful, you're no better than the religious people you deride. And I personally thought your aim was to be better than that. Tell me if I'm wrong, and I'll stop trying to convince you to be a good person, by any moral standard.I'm a bottom line guy. If it takes anger to get mankind to open his eyes, I'll be happy to get angry.
Edit: @Squish, his filter had blocked Common Sense Atheist (or was it Unreasonable Faith? I'll check back earlier in the thread to check) as well. I put 2 and 2 together, and my guess turned out to be incorrect. Rather than adhering to it in the face of evidence, I already said that I would apologize if I was wrong and so I have.
Post by
Squishalot
Why would god give kids bone cancer anyway?
It is their genetics/their parents genes.
Well, gee, how in the hell did it get there? Perhaps it could be by... Chance? *Gasp*
Sorry, this just seems like such a bad answer to the question.
Evolution. Which is not incompatible with non-Evangelical Christianity, or Mormonism.
Post by
TheMediator
If you are so confident God will heal you, why do you bother with modern medicine?
Also, refer to my previous argument about the quarter genie in reference to "some people are healed, some people aren't". If you're too lazy, let me sum it up - you only notice patterns, not lack of patterns. Also, after the fact claims are worthless - if some could with a high level of certainity point out who will and won't survive because of God's choosing against scientific evidence and be shown right, you might be able to consider it evidence. Sadly, you lack the capacity to understand how reasoning works. I can flip a coin a hundred times and call whether it is heads or tails every time, if I wait until I see whether it is heads or tails before I decide what to call it.
Post by
Monday
If you are so confident God will heal you, why do you bother with modern medicine?
A. Common sense. God wants you to try and do things yourself, and come to him only if you are in dire troubles.
B. The prophet says it is good.
Evolution. Which is not incompatible with non-Evangelical Christianity, or Mormonism.
This. We don't disbelieve in evolution, we just disbelieve that humans evolved from apes or whatnot.
Sorry, this just seems like such a bad answer to the question.
Why is it a bad answer? It's science, I thought that was good =P
Edit: Heading to library.
Post by
Squishalot
Also, after the fact claims are worthless - if some could with a high level of certainity point out who will and won't survive because of God's choosing against scientific evidence and be shown right, you might be able to consider it evidence.
There is no such thing as evidential causation, only correlation. If someone prays, and 5 minutes later, the person praying for gets better, it's circumstantial, but if someone plugs in a drug and 5 minutes later, the person drugged up gets better, it's science?
Every time a drug doesn't work to help someone in hospital, is that evidence that medical science doesn't work?
Post by
Skreeran
Also, after the fact claims are worthless - if some could with a high level of certainity point out who will and won't survive because of God's choosing against scientific evidence and be shown right, you might be able to consider it evidence.
There is no such thing as evidential causation, only correlation. If someone prays, and 5 minutes later, the person praying for gets better, it's circumstantial, but if someone plugs in a drug and 5 minutes later, the person drugged up gets better, it's science?
Every time a drug doesn't work to help someone in hospital, is that evidence that medical science doesn't work?We can observe and understand why and how a drug does or doesn't work, unlike "god."
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