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Why Your Religion?
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Post by
150529
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Suffering is needed to challenge us and make the Soul grow and become greater then it is.
Post by
MyTie
This is correct, but this also doesn't answer his question.
WHY believe in a god that, on purpose, makes his creations suffer. When somebody kicks a kitten we call him a bad person, when someone creates the world and includes suffering, we call him god?
Yes, to understand good we must know evil. But is understanding good so worth it as to force untold trillions into suffering?
The answer is in the nature of Love. God, more than anything, wants to be loved. However, love cannot be forced. So, God gave us the opportunity to not love. He didn't place 'not loveing' into the world, but he gave us the option to. So, people can kick kittens. God doesn't come down from heaven and physically stop us from doing wrong, and make us only do right. What kind of forced utopia would that create? One devoid of the option to chose to love. I'll take a world where love is possible, but suffering happens, over utopia, any day.
Post by
Monday
This is correct, but this also doesn't answer his question.
WHY believe in a god that, on purpose, makes his creations suffer. When somebody kicks a kitten we call him a bad person, when someone creates the world and includes suffering, we call him god?
Yes, to understand good we must know evil. But is understanding good so worth it as to force untold trillions into suffering?
To test us. Anyone can just say that they love God and, bam, call it good. You have to go through trials to test your faith to see if you are worthy to return.
Many believe that you can just believe in God and you will go to heaven, but if you consider this...
You believe that there is one God; you do well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Even the devils believe, yet they will be damned. So why should you just have to believe? You must show that your faith is unshakable to return to the Kingdom of God.
Edit: Grammar stuff...
Post by
260787
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
I love how when I state that "I am Christian and believe God when he said he created the universe in 7 days about 6K years ago", people jump on the oportunity to explain to me how lolwrong I am. Then, when I put forward a well thought out explaination of how such a thing could be possible, everyone goes real quite and changes the subject. It's the same thing every time this debate happens.
Because there is nothing to challenge.
You aren't saying that you're correct, but you aren't saying that you're wrong either. All you're saying is "that the possibility
is
there." That possibility is there, just as the possibility that we used to have a skin tone that was florescent pink. The possibility
is
there and always will be there until some empirical evidence is brought to the table that denies its existance.
Thanks for this recognition. When some take geology or astronomy as "empirical evidence" against the universe being 6K years old, it is a mistake. I'm glad you see this.
Post by
260787
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
I love how when I state that "I am Christian and believe God when he said he created the universe in 7 days about 6K years ago", people jump on the oportunity to explain to me how lolwrong I am. Then, when I put forward a well thought out explaination of how such a thing could be possible, everyone goes real quite and changes the subject. It's the same thing every time this debate happens.
Because there is nothing to challenge.
You aren't saying that you're correct, but you aren't saying that you're wrong either. All you're saying is "that the possibility
is
there." That possibility is there, just as the possibility that we used to have a skin tone that was florescent pink. The possibility
is
there and always will be there until some empirical evidence is brought to the table that denies its existance.
Thanks for this recognition. When some take geology or astronomy as "empirical evidence" against the universe being 6K years old, it is a mistake. I'm glad you see this.That's not what he's saying at all. There could be a teapot floating out in space somewhere. There is a possiblity. There's no evidence against it. However, it is up to the positive claimant to put forth evidence that there is. YOU put forth evidence that your god exists, and that popular scientific consensus is wrong with
valid, falsifiable
evidence, rather than just possibility, and we'll give it consideration.
Also, god believers, tell me this: Can god do something that is fundamentally illogical? Can he make a square circle? Can he contradict reality in paradoxical ways? Or is he limited to logic only?
Post by
Monday
YOU put forth evidence that your god exists, and that popular scientific consensus is wrong with valid, falsifiable evidence, rather than just possibility, and we'll give it consideration.
I'm waiting for evidence that he doesn't exist myself.
Post by
Skreeran
YOU put forth evidence that your god exists, and that popular scientific consensus is wrong with valid, falsifiable evidence, rather than just possibility, and we'll give it consideration.
I'm waiting for evidence that he doesn't exist myself.I don't have to prove that the teapot isn't there in space. I don't have to prove that giant pink balloon dragons don't exist. I don't have to prove that the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist.
It is 100 percent impossible for anyone who is not omnicient to prove that something does not exist. Thus, it is up to you to prove that what you say DOES.
Post by
MyTie
YOU put forth evidence that your god exists, and that popular scientific consensus is wrong with
valid, falsifiable
evidence, rather than just possibility, and we'll give it consideration.I didn't say that the scientific consensus was wrong. And I don't need your "consideration". Thanks though.Also, god believers, tell me this: Can god do something that is fundamentally illogical? Can he make a square circle? Can he contradict reality in paradoxical ways? Or is he limited to logic only?
I don't know. I suspect this question is a little more complicated than it looks on the surface, as in, what is our understanding of logic. But again, I don't know, and I doubt anyone, God believing or not, does.
Post by
260787
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Orranis
YOU put forth evidence that your god exists, and that popular scientific consensus is wrong with valid, falsifiable evidence, rather than just possibility, and we'll give it consideration.
I'm waiting for evidence that he doesn't exist myself.
Every argument I've seen to go toward his existence could just as easily go to the existence of five Gods, or a simple 'just is' universe.
It is impossible for something to create something more complex than itself, and why would the more complex thing be more likely to be the original creation?
Post by
150529
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Orranis
Skreeran, I don't think you fully understand the fundamentals of science. Science doesn't prove anything to be 100% accurate; at most, it's 99.9%. There is always room for error and nothing is ever certain.
In order for your last statement to hold true, science must put forth evidence that God doesn't exist and as much as I hate to admit it, it can't. You cannot prove the existance of God, nor disprove it. God does not lie in the realm of science.
Which is the exact reason I created this thread.
Why is your God right, as opposed to all other Gods?
Post by
Monday
YOU put forth evidence that your god exists, and that popular scientific consensus is wrong with valid, falsifiable evidence, rather than just possibility, and we'll give it consideration.
I'm waiting for evidence that he doesn't exist myself.I don't have to prove that the teapot isn't there in space. I don't have to prove that giant pink balloon dragons don't exist. I don't have to prove that the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist.
It is 100 percent impossible for anyone who is not omnicient to prove that something does not exist. Thus, it is up to you to prove that what you say DOES.
No that's isn't what I'm getting at...
What I'm getting at is that people point out things like the big bang to prove that God doesn't exist...
Making evil without reason is definately something I consider immoral.
But it has reason though.
Post by
Skreeran
Skreeran, I don't think you fully understand the fundamentals of science. Science doesn't prove anything to be 100% accurate; at most, it's 99.9%. There is always room for error and nothing is ever certain.
In order for your last statement to hold true, science must put forth evidence that God doesn't exist and as much as I hate to admit it, it can't. You cannot prove the existance of God, nor disprove it. God does not lie in the realm of science.Of course you can't totally prove that something exists or doesn't, but you can prove within reason. Do I know that the Earth actually exists? Not 100 percent, but through evidence and experimentation, we have learned that it probably does.
Likewise, we don't
know
with 100 percent certainty that giant pink balloon dragons don't exist, but since there is no evidence of their existence, we can be relatively certain that they do not, at least until someone provides evidence otherwise.
@MyTie: You did say scientific consensus is wrong. Scientific consensus, throughout various fields of science, states that the universe is some 14 billion years old, life on earth formed approximately 3.5 billion years ago, and that we evolved from apelike ancestors.
If you wish to challenge it, provide evidence. Not just an alternative theory, but evidence supporting your theory.
Post by
150529
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
The reason to create evil is to see who is evil? So is someone justified to kill people to see which one can resist dying of bleeding the most and give the most resistant ones a nice garden?
(btw,ignore my possible grammar errors. Writting on a iPhone is darn hard -.-)So it just sucks for the people upon whom evil is acted?
The Japanese raped 100,000 girls and women at Nanking, and the Nazis killed million Jews. You're telling me that God just let that happen so that he could see if the Nazis were evil?
Why didn't he just not create evil in the first place and let people live in perfect paradise from the start?
Post by
Adamsm
The reason to create evil is to see who is evil? So is someone justified to kill people to see which one can resist dying of bleeding the most and give the most resistant ones a nice garden?
(btw,ignore my possible grammar errors. Writting on a iPhone is darn hard -.-)So it just sucks for the people upon whom evil is acted?
The Japanese raped 100,000 girls and women at Nanking, and the Nazis killed million Jews. You're telling me that God just let that happen so that he could see if the Nazis were evil?
Why didn't he just not create evil in the first place and let people live in perfect paradise from the start?
Free Will.
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