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Post by
392412
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Perkocet
Maybe it's just me, but posting inflammatory comments about how a woman
should
dress to avoid being raped in a feminism thread seems a bit.. Off. sorry to interrupt the male/female rape thing
Post by
Sas148
-Sigh-
I actually don't have time to mediate this thread but it clearly needs locked, at least temporarily. When I, or another moderator, has some time we'll go over it. Unfortunately, it does seem like some warnings and/or suspensions may need to be issued.
---
Thread has been unlocked. Please keep it on topic and no more personal attacks. Also, like many threads of this nature, show at least some margin of sensitivity for those that may have opposing viewpoints.(##RESPBREAK##)2060##DELIM##Sas148##DELIM##
Post by
Patty
Right, because this has been very, very derailed and there's been a lot of hanging up on the subject of rape (which is a massive part of feminism, as I mentioned earlier and thought was clear enough, but obviously isn't).
The fact that 1/6 women are raped in the US has been mentioned in this thread, but I don't think that the connections have been clearly enough made with how this related to feminism, as yes, there was a reason why this whole rape mess was mentioned in the thread. Evidently, this means rape against women is a very, very common crime.
1/33 is the male counterpart to that figure
. This increases to
1/10 if you're a man in prison
. Ergo, rape is clearly a much larger issue for women (in a wider social context), than for men. Please note, this obviously does not detract from the men who have been raped, and their experiences are equally horrifying, but note the gender disparity. There is clearly and objectively a much larger threat of rape for a woman as a whole.
That
is how it links in with feminism.
I don't know how close all of your personal experiences with rape have been, but it's likely that regardless, you know a woman who has been sexually assaulted. The problem is that the main way of trying to reduce this risk has been to teach girls from a very young age that rape is an otherwise inevitable fate unless you take precautions - this is objectively wrong. The threat of rape is literally a factor in almost all of almost every woman's actions. That is not the same as for the average man. There is no overall emphasis on teaching men to respect women and women's bodies. Steubenville is linked with this. They were minors and still went and gang-raped, urinated, video-recorded, gang-raped again and pissed on her again - a sixteen year old girl literally incapable of doing anything to stop it. With around 50 other witnesses. Yet blame was still put on the victim, and popular journalism more mourned the pre-mature end to two young men's upcoming careers, rather than the horrifying things that Jane Doe was subjected to. Also, just because Jane Doe went to a party doesn't mean she was the only agent in her intoxication. When you're a teenager, peer pressure is sometimes really, really difficult to resist. The guys who gang-raped her could have been plying her with alcohol. Regardless of if she got herself drunk or other factors were in play, her dress and her state of intoxication do not justify it or make it make any more sense. There is such a thing as basic human empathy. Half the town went on to say that the girl was probably drunk and later regretted sleeping with them. The fact she didn't clearly say no was cited as an invitation for the rapists to go and despoil her - in other words, consent was
presumed
. If not for some bloggers, and Anonymous (who I would rarely applaud, but they were absolutely right in bringing this case to light - there had been a police cover up), this rape case would never have been known about, despite how horrifying it is, because the community at large were later complicit and it was more convenient to forget about it than bring the rapists to justice. That is the definition of a rape culture.
I'm
linking
a
few
articles
by a writer called Soroya Chemaly here because I think she really highlights the issues of patriarchy and rape culture, and how they are intertwined. She mentions Steubenville a few times, and I hope you find the articles helpful. Also, please note how I'm not going to approach this topic as a debate any more (not that I ever really did) - patriarchy is a fact that has been accepted in academic circles for years, it's now feeding down into a more mainstream consciousness, but not yet to anywhere near its greatest reach. To deny it, or debate it, really just helps maintain the status quo, which is massively skewed in favour of men.
I really don't know how I can make this any clearer.
Post by
MyTie
There certainly is a responsibility, on parents, to teach boys to respect women. A big part of that problem is that young boys aren't taught to respect parents, girls, or even themselves. Parents today have this "can do no wrong" mentality toward their kids, and pamper their every desire. Entitlement has replaced personal responsibility. It's no wonder that we treat people, and women in particular in this discussion, with little respect. I'd be interested in a comparison of rape statistics from 130 years ago to today.
Post by
Patty
There certainly is a responsibility, on parents, to teach boys to respect women. A big part of that problem is that young boys aren't taught to respect parents, girls, or even themselves. Parents today have this "can do no wrong" mentality toward their kids, and pamper their every desire. Entitlement has replaced personal responsibility. It's no wonder that we treat people, and women in particular in this discussion, with little respect. I'd be interested in a comparison of rape statistics from 130 years ago to today.
It would be incredibly skewed, so the statistics wouldn't mean anything.
If anything, rapes may have been higher in some areas where there was still very poor lighting (ie. none at all). I don't think the rape problem is a new problem stemming from modern styles of parenting - it's probably always been a (very ugly, obviously) part of society.
Post by
asakawa
I agree that it's not a new problem. If anything I would imagine there has been a great decline in the amount of sexual assault even if the numbers of reported/prosecuted rapes has increased.
I also don't think it is healthy to make sweeping statements about things like "parents today". That smacks of bringing one's own agenda into another subject. Is the implication that children who receive
Montessori
education or permissive parenting styles are more likely to be rapists? One might not like those parenting styles but unless there's some serious studies to back that up I don't see how it belongs in this thread.
Post by
Patty
I agree that it's not a new problem. If anything I would imagine there has been a great decline in the amount of sexual assault even if the numbers of reported/prosecuted rapes has increased.
I also don't think it is healthy to make sweeping statements about things like "parents today". That smacks of bringing one's own agenda into another subject. Is the implication that children who receive
Montessori
education or permissive parenting styles are more likely to be rapists? One might not like those parenting styles but unless there's some serious studies to back that up I don't see how it belongs in this thread.
Yeah, agreed. I think that now there is generally more chance of a prosecution of rape now, simply because the definition is actually including rape, as opposed to one certain kind of rape. Although it must be remembered that a huge amount of sexual assaults still go unreported and/or rapists that don't get justice (not to mention the weakness of that "justice"... one year in the example of Steubenville).
Post by
Gone
To deny it, or debate it, really just helps maintain the status quo, which is massively skewed in favour of men.
I really don't know how I can make this any clearer.
Actually
not
debating something, anything, is what maintains the status quo and prevents change. Being afraid to talk about somehting because somebody might call it offensive or ignorant or politically incorrect is what prevents these ideas from being discussed and what hinders real social growth.
Other than that last it I agreed with most of what you said.
Post by
MyTie
it's probably always been a (very ugly, obviously) part of society.
I agree with this. I'm not saying rape is new, I'm just saying that parenting boys to be
more respectful of women
will end in less rape. Is that so radical a concept? Or is it radical that I think boys aren't raised to be as respectful as they once were? I'm not suggesting that this is the CAUSE of rape. I'm suggesting this is a significant contributing factor.
I had this cousin, who was never told no. He is the same age as I am. We grew up together. Anything he wanted, he got. His parents allowed him to do whatever he wanted, and if he was told "no", he just had to force the matter to get what he wanted. He is now serving prison time for sexual assault of a minor, his step daughter of all people. I might want to add that that was his third marriage, that he entered in after he got kicked out of the military. What a gem.
Post by
Patty
To deny it, or debate it, really just helps maintain the status quo, which is massively skewed in favour of men.
I really don't know how I can make this any clearer.
Actually
not
debating something, anything, is what maintains the status quo and prevents change. Being afraid to talk about somehting because somebody might call it offensive or ignorant or politically incorrect is what prevents these ideas from being discussed and what hinders real social growth.
Other than that last it I agreed with most of what you said.
I don't see how - patriarchy is a demonstrable fact of society, as is the concept of male privilege linked with that. That's not an attempt to shame men into feeling bad about themselves because they're not being oppressed, in the slightest. It's highlighting the problems in society to try and make men more aware that no, current feminism isn't an attempt to side-line men into the oppressed category.
The only way I can think of changing the status quo is through educating people about things like this, which should really be common sense and common decency, and how things are much more harmful than they might think. Not going "well i just think you're wrong because men have problems in society too!" when actually most of those issues stem from the backfiring of patriarchy. I'm going more general now, I realise, but rape is a very powerful example of patriarchy's impacts on women, so I'm just linking it back to the whole thing now.
And I think that if something is offensive or ignorant, and you say it or make it known to a wider audience, you should expect to be called out on it. "Political correctness" is generally just a bull$%^& term invented to try and sideline the underlying issues behind pointing out what is wrong with certain slurs or problems of representation or whatever else. I know things can get carried away at times, but that doesn't detract from the main points being raised when discussing being "PC" or not.
Post by
MyTie
patriarchy
I'm curious. Are the concepts of the male/female relationship dynamic from the Bible reconcilable with your understanding of feminism?
Post by
Patty
patriarchy
I'm curious. Are the concepts of the man/female relationship dynamic from the Bible reconcilable with your understanding of feminism?
Of women being subservient to their husbands? No, that definitely is not. In terms of respecting your partner and loving them, obviously. Ed: I can't claim to know everything the bible discusses about the relationship between men and women, so obviously my opinion could be incomplete. Off what I know, however, I don't think it's reconcilable.
it's probably always been a (very ugly, obviously) part of society.
I agree with this. I'm not saying rape is new, I'm just saying that parenting boys to be
more respectful of women
will end in less rape. Is that so radical a concept? Or is it radical that I think boys aren't raised to be as respectful as they once were? I'm not suggesting that this is the CAUSE of rape. I'm suggesting this is a significant contributing factor.
I agree with your first sentence, which if you've forgotten I mentioned in my wall of text above. And I don't think it is; as asa and I pointed out, there was less incentive
not
to rape in the 19th century - a lot of rapes were not considered to be rapes.
I think all through the archetypal western society, men have been the leading influence in shaping society - the positions of power were concentrated within the hands of upper-class, white, Latin Christian, men. Women were always subservient to men, and oftentimes their power was derived from men (receiving their dowries only once becoming widowed, or queen-regents for young kings as a couple of examples). I think
that
is the major contributing factor to rape being disproportionate against women. That all throughout the development of our societies, women never had a voice. Women never had their own power, or their own agency. I think some of the ugly attributes of that remain today.
Post by
MyTie
What about the physical size of men, and the testosterone factor? Isn't it natural for men to rape? If you look at nature, don't the male versions of species rape more often than the female version? To think this is entirely rested on social constructs, and not physical realities might not be completely honest.
Note: Just because something occurs in nature, doesn't make it right. I'm not saying that because rape occurs in nature, that it being "natural" is somehow "acceptable".
Of women being subservient to their husbands? No, that definitely is not. In terms of respecting your partner and loving them, obviously. Ed: I can't claim to know everything the bible discusses about the relationship between men and women, so obviously my opinion could be incomplete. Off what I know, however, I don't think it's reconcilable.
I think the term is "submissive", as found in the Bible. Therefore, aren't all Christians misogynistic?
Post by
Gone
I don't see how - patriarchy is a demonstrable fact of society, as is the concept of male privilege linked with that. That's not an attempt to shame men into feeling bad about themselves because they're not being oppressed, in the slightest. It's highlighting the problems in society to try and make men more aware that no,
current feminism isn't an attempt to side-line men into the oppressed category
.
As far as what I highlighted goes, you would be surprised at some of the crazies out there who think just that. Although I don't judge all feminists based on those actions any more than I judge all Arabs based on the actions of Al Qaeda, or all Christians based on the actions of Westboro.
Anyway as far as the discussion goes, it's very true that the patriarchy is widely established as a problem in society, but it is open to debate how much it still influences us. You're more radical feminists would have us believe that women are still trapped in the kitchen, where as the people on the opposite side of the debate would claim that it has gone too far to the other side, that women have all the same rights as men, and are still given more social privileges (for example, they are usually awarded extra consideration in child custody cases). I think the truth of the matter lies way in the middle of the two extremes, which is why discussing the issue, no matter what the issue is, is always important.
The only way I can think of changing the status quo is through educating people about things like this, which should really be common sense and common decency, and how things are much more harmful than they might think.
I think the best way of solving the problem is to do exactly what we have been doing. Each generation things are getting better in terms of this issue. We need to keep encouraging our daughters to go out and get an education and to be strong and independent, and we need to teach our sons not to treat women as objects and not to act like self entitled little jackasses.
Above all else I think we need to not hide from the issue. I think there are gender differences, and pretending they don't exist is only harmful, for example in that other thread some people wanted to pretend that rape would be a non issue for women in an anarchic society, when it obviously would be given that... you know... it's a problem for women today. I also think that people with opinions we might not necessarily agree with should still be able to voice them rather than being cowed into silence, because that's the only way that they will learn anything, through discussion. And it might turn out in fact that those with the majority opinion could have something to learn as well.
And I think that if something is offensive or ignorant, and you say it or make it known to a wider audience, you should expect to be called out on it. "Political correctness" is generally just a bull$%^& term invented to try and sideline the underlying issues behind pointing out what is wrong with certain slurs or problems of representation or whatever else. I know things can get carried away at times, but that doesn't detract from the main points being raised when discussing being "PC" or not.
I don't think that people should ever hide from discussing things. I know that I'm usually the one saying people should keep offensive opinions to themselves in the religion threads, but this is still how I feel. If MyTie thinks that women should dress more modestly for moral reasons, that is something I disagree with, and it's not something i would mention in correlation with a rape case like the one we've been discussing. However, I would never say that he does not have the right to voice his opinion.
The term PC isn't bull*!@#, there are more and more people out there who are becoming afraid to bring up certain issues if they have an unpopular opinion out of a fear of being bullied into silence by the crowd because their opinion is deemed to be ignorant.
Well even if it is, ignorance isn't a crime, and the only way to prevent the spread of it is by engaging people with dissenting opinions in discussion. It's the only way they will learn anything, and we may in fact learn something ourselves.
Post by
Patty
What about the physical size of men, and the testosterone factor? Isn't it natural for men to rape? If you look at nature, don't the male versions of species rape more often than the female version? To think this is entirely rested on social constructs, and not physical realities might not be completely honest.
Note: Just because something occurs in nature, doesn't make it right. I'm not saying that because rape occurs in nature, that it being "natural" is somehow "acceptable".It's also completely natural to drop something hot, even if it's valuable to you. Nevertheless, man perseveres through that and will most the time set the casserole dish on the counter before jerking away from the heat. I think the argument of some biological factor is complete bull^&*!. It's natural to be naked all the time, yet clothes are the socially accepted norm. It's natural for us to be nomadic tribes, wandering for food. Yet then along came agriculture. If humanity can develop past their natures on things like this, then surely not raping is an absolute piece of cake. Especially if you're going to claim that you're respectful of others.
I think the term is "submissive", as found in the Bible. Therefore, aren't all Christians misogynistic?
I'll try and be careful phrasing this, because it's obviously a delicate topic. I'll probably fail.
Christianity, well, most major religions I know of, always have a degree of interpretation in-built. That's why there are different denominations, but also why there is such a great social divergence of opinion on religious text even within denominations. Internal continuity isn't always great, either. I mean, quite a few Christians are in favor of gay marriage*, and despite what anyone else believes, they believe that is morally right. I think if universal love and respect is the most important thing about being a Christian (which I believe it kind of is what you should be according to Jesus), then equality shouldn't even be something they have to think about. Pressing for it, for everyone, should be interlinked with being a good Christian. I mean, I've heard so many different arguments from religious folks in regards to being in favor of equality, but I think the one I liked most was that the golden rule applies to everyone, in every context - socially, in terms of legal rights, etc. Then there are others who say it is only god's place to judge so he would want you to be able to not feel pressured by society into not choosing what you believe to be true. I think those are not misogynists, religious bigots or anything like that. Those that take the message of universal love above all else from their religion.
However, aspects of the Christian canon, I think
are
misogynistic - particularly in the Old Testament. Most religious institutions are set up based on a history of misogyny. Those that support or believe in those misogynistic parts of their faith, therefore, must also be misogynistic.
*I'm using gay marriage as an example, but it applies for all forms of inequality.
Post by
MyTie
From the New Testament:Ephesians 5:
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so the wives to their own husbands in every thing.
Is that misogynistic?
Post by
Jubilee
Yes
Post by
MyTie
From the Qur'an:Qur'an (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."From the Hadith:Bukhari (72:715) A woman came to Muhammad and begged her to stop her husband from beating her. Her skin was bruised so badly that she it is described as being "greener" than the green veil she was wearing. Muhammad did not admonish her husband, but instead ordered her to return to him and submit to his sexual desires.Is that misogynistic?
Post by
ElhonnaDS
Yes.
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