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Post by
Skreeran
I'm generally opposed to shock protesting as well. I'm of the opinion that most social issues can be solved through calm, rational dialogue between parties. Shock protesting only causes conflict by drawing battle lines.
Post by
Patty
By the way, I'd suggest everybody gets acquainted with stuff on places like
this
,
this
and
this
I stopped reading at "@#$%Walk Toronto".
Imagine if I wanted to fight injustices toward Christians by walking down the streets of Portland, naked, or dressed inappropriately, screaming at bystanders and holding signs. What does this kind of crap hope to accomplish besides making feminism into this, what I call, popular indignation, instead of efforts to stop women from being actually beaten and raped.
$%^&Walk Toronto. Srsly.
Do you even know what a #$%^walk is? It's basically feminists walking down the street, in plain daylight, wearing clothes which apparently is the cause of their rapes, and displaying, loud and clear, that
it is never okay to rape somebody
. It's also a chance for feminists to meet other feminists. I don't understand how that is a bad thing? I mean, yes, it's pretty extreme, but to me? It speaks volumes. It being tasteful or not isn't really the point. I think trying to do something to raise awareness about rape and victim blaming and outright say "this is bull&*!@" is more important than, you know, meeting your personal opinion of if something is tasteful or not.
Also, it's a really quite a cop-out to stop trying to find out about feminism because you disagree with @#$%walks. There's a lot more to feminism than that, and if you disagree with ^&*!walking, then fine. That's your opinion. But then don't use that alone as a reason to stop trying to teach yourself about other aspects of it, other philosophies behind it, or root causes. Or if you do, why even come in here?
Post by
MyTie
Do you even know what a #$%^walk is? It's basically feminists walking down the street, in plain daylight, wearing clothes which apparently is the cause of their rapes, and displaying, loud and clear, that
it is never okay to rape somebody
. It's also a chance for feminists to meet other feminists. I don't understand how that is a bad thing? I mean, yes, it's pretty extreme, but to me? It speaks volumes. It being tasteful or not isn't really the point. I think trying to do something to raise awareness about rape and victim blaming and outright say "this is bull&*!@" is more important than, you know, meeting your personal opinion of if something is tasteful or not.
Also, it's a really quite a cop-out to stop trying to find out about feminism because you disagree with @#$%walks. There's a lot more to feminism than that, and if you disagree with ^&*!walking, then fine. That's your opinion. But then don't use that alone as a reason to stop trying to teach yourself about other aspects of it, other philosophies behind it, or root causes. Or if you do, why even come in here?
I do not agree with that form of feminism. I think the people who go on &*!@ walks, do so out of a selfish desire for attention, and a they want to feel morally superior. They do nothing but hurt the cause of feminism, by making it a laughingstock, when it should be there to help women around the world.
The people that use that form of feminism should be ignored, not used as teachers. Their brand of feminism is self centered. I know enough about it to know that I want no part of it. I don't need to read their website to learn more about it. I already know enough about it. This isn't some kind of educational movement, about women suffering. This is just pages and pages of morally superior hand wringing, and self promoting activism, not motivated by a little smarmy sense of self importance.
Let's talk about real feminism for a moment. You know the greatest step forward in feminism in the last 10 years? You want to know feminism's greatest modern triumph? You want to know who made that possible? Women voting in Afghanistan, made possible by war and the US military, not a $%^& walk. That's reality. That's feminism. The US military are the real feminists. I'd much rather read up on how women in the middle east are being improved or not improved by my country's efforts, not how &*!@ty a woman in Toronto looks as she walks around to decry the patriarchy and rape culture, which in my opinion, is so silly that it, and other things promoted by those people, need not deserve a moment of my attention. You see, I've grown up. I'm not a kid anymore. I can look around the world and see people who really need help. I don't complain because a principle in a first world nation told girls to not wear tight pants, and I don't think that action is going to cause boys to rape them. I don't think harassing society by wearing inappropriate clothing is going to somehow improve anyone's situation. That is childish. That is self promotion. That is not feminism.
Post by
Patty
Yup, the
US military
are
great feminists
. Definitely paragons of rape prevention and respect for women within their own ranks, let alone the populations of the areas they are stationed.
/sarcasm
In response to other aspects: on
patriarchy
and
*!@#-shaming
. On !@#$Walks, I'll drop it after pointing out that it's also a way for a community to make it clear that they will not tolerate rape or rape apologism - which
is
positive.
Post by
Adamsm
It's also not like dressing modestly defers a rape attempt either.
Post by
Skreeran
As someone who actually served in the US Military, I can tell you right now that rape is a huge, HUGE deal. It's such a big deal that we had more of a problem with people falsely reporting it to make someone else lose their job than actual cases.
I'm a feminist too, Patty, but I can tell you with firsthand experience that the military takes sexual assault
extremely
seriously.
Post by
Patty
As someone who actually served in the US Military, I can tell you right now that rape is a huge, HUGE deal. It's such a big deal that we had more of a problem with people falsely reporting it to make someone else lose their job than actual cases.
I'm a feminist too, Patty, but I can tell you with firsthand experience that the military takes sexual assault
extremely
seriously.
Nevertheless, the figures speak for themselves - and not all cases are going to be reported, remember. Rape in the military is treated as a big deal (as it rightfully should be), because it's a big problem that's very widespread. I mean... 1/3 women in the military estimated by the government? And that's probably a little more conservative than the actual figure.
Post by
Skreeran
While I was only in for a year and a half or so, I really don't think those figures are anywhere near that high now, at least in the Army. Everyone I knew was nervous even having consensual sex with a fellow soldier, because of all the stories of people who had their careers ruined over even a rape allegation. In the Army, you're guilty until proven innocent, so if someone says you sexually assaulted them, everything for you stops until you're proven innocent in court, and even then, you can carry a stigma because you have that big fact sexual assault trial in your file.
Post by
Patty
While I was only in for a year and a half or so, I really don't think those figures are anywhere near that high now, at least in the Army. Everyone I knew was nervous even having consensual sex with a fellow soldier, because of all the stories of people who had their careers ruined over even a rape allegation. In the Army, you're guilty until proven innocent, so if someone says you sexually assaulted them, everything for you stops until you're proven innocent in court, and even then, you can carry a stigma because you have that big fact sexual assault trial in your file.
Bear in mind that estimate covers approximately when you would've been in the army, so obviously the real rape cases overall significantly outweighed the false allegations. And whilst I appreciate that true, it's a huge stigma - that doesn't change the facts that suggest a rampant rape culture in the military, despite punitive measures. As of 2011, they obviously were not enough.
Post by
Skreeran
Then the posts I was stationed on must have just been really special, because I heard about maybe 2 or 3 cases total during my time, post-wide, and it happened to literally none of the men or women I was familiar with.
Post by
MyTie
Yup, the
US military
are
great feminists
. Definitely paragons of rape prevention and respect for women within their own ranks, let alone the populations of the areas they are stationed.
/sarcasm
In response to other aspects: on
patriarchy
and
*!@#-shaming
. On !@#$Walks, I'll drop it after pointing out that it's also a way for a community to make it clear that they will not tolerate rape or rape apologism - which
is
positive.
As someone who actually served in the US Military, I can tell you right now that rape is a huge, HUGE deal. It's such a big deal that we had more of a problem with people falsely reporting it to make someone else lose their job than actual cases.
I'm a feminist too, Patty, but I can tell you with firsthand experience that the military takes sexual assault
extremely
seriously.
Nevertheless, the figures speak for themselves - and not all cases are going to be reported, remember. Rape in the military is treated as a big deal (as it rightfully should be), because it's a big problem that's very widespread. I mean... 1/3 women in the military estimated by the government? And that's probably a little more conservative than the actual figure.
We are talking about two different things. I'm talking about helping women around the world, to end oppression. The US Military, for all of its faults, and all of its problems, has done that. It's a tough reality for you to swallow, but the US Military has promoted freedom for societies all over the world, the women included. So, yeah, the culture in the military has problems, and I'll be the first to agree with you that it does. But, to say that they don't help because of those problems, or they aren't a positive force in the world, is to argue ad hominem against the military, despite their actions.
It's also not like dressing modestly defers a rape attempt either.
It does, Adamsm. It does. I think that this is the HEART of the issue as to why we disagree on the subject of feminism. I think if women dressed more modestly, there would be less rape. I think that if society stopped objectifying women, and treated them with respect, and they treated themselves with respect, and instead of making themselves into objects of sexual lust, instead dressed in a manner that promoted self respect, and self control, and self restraint, our entire culture would respect women more.
What we have is a "women shouldn't have to dress in a way that respects themselves, and they shouldn't be raped" attitude, which is your attitude, which at its heart is true, but promotes a bunch of really troubling ideas by suggestion. The suggestion is that women are not hurt by dressing ^&*!ty. The suggestion that a woman should not be viewed in a lustful manner when she dresses in a way that provokes lust, is sad. It seems contradictory to me, to insist that women shouldn't dress in a way that promotes self respect, and at the same time insist that women should be respected. Women should be respected, and that should start with them respecting themselves, which is the polar opposite of a @#$% walk.
Post by
Adamsm
I think if women dressed more modestly, there would be less rape.Sorry but I disagree with this quite a lot: A rapist is going to hit a target, whether the target is wearing long baggy clothing or a micro-mini and a tube top. The clothing does not matter to the rapist.
Post by
Patty
We are talking about two different things. I'm talking about helping women around the world, to end oppression. The US Military, for all of its faults, and all of its problems, has done that. It's a tough reality for you to swallow, but the US Military has promoted freedom for societies all over the world, the women included. So, yeah, the culture in the military has problems, and I'll be the first to agree with you that it does. But, to say that they don't help because of those problems, or they aren't a positive force in the world, is to argue ad hominem against the military, despite their actions.Whilst they have helped make some progress for women, the point is that they're not great either. I would actually have to wonder what the factual numbers of, say, Iraqi women raped by NATO forces would be.
It does, Adamsm. It does. I think that this is the HEART of the issue as to why we disagree on the subject of feminism. I think if women dressed more modestly, there would be less rape. I think that if society stopped objectifying women, and treated them with respect, and they treated themselves with respect, and instead of making themselves into objects of sexual lust, instead dressed in a manner that promoted self respect, and self control, and self restraint, our entire culture would respect women more.
What we have is a "women shouldn't have to dress in a way that respects themselves, and they shouldn't be raped" attitude, which is your attitude, which at its heart is true, but promotes a bunch of really troubling ideas by suggestion. The suggestion is that women are not hurt by dressing ^&*!ty. The suggestion that a woman should not be viewed in a lustful manner when she dresses in a way that provokes lust, is sad. It seems contradictory to me, to insist that women shouldn't dress in a way that promotes self respect, and at the same time insist that women should be respected. Women should be respected, and that should start with them respecting themselves, which is the polar opposite of a @#$% walk.
http://www.domesticviolenceservices.com/rapemythsandfacts.html
http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/blaming-the-victims-of-sex-crimes-lets-the-perpetrators-off-the-hook-1.550285
http://www.wccpenang.org/rape/myth-vs-reality1/
(accessibility being their vulnerability, not how much flesh is on show)
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2012/12/how-the-modesty-doctrine-fuels-rape-culture.html
First things that came up on google. I'm leaving ugly links because tbh I am lazy.
Your definition of respect isn't everyone else's, can I ask what would give you the authority to tell a woman what is and is not respectful of
her own body
? Really, I'm curious.
Post by
Skreeran
I think if women dressed more modestly, there would be less rape.Sorry but I disagree with this quite a lot: A rapist is going to hit a target, whether the target is wearing long baggy clothing or a micro-mini and a tube top. The clothing does not matter to the rapist.I have to agree with Adams.
Forcible rape has (almost) nothing to do with sex. (I say almost because it often has to do with the sexual development of the rapist, but when they do it, it's not because they just want to have sex with someone.)
Post by
MyTie
I think if women dressed more modestly, there would be less rape.Sorry but I disagree with this quite a lot: A rapist is going to hit a target, whether the target is wearing long baggy clothing or a micro-mini and a tube top. The clothing does not matter to the rapist.
You missed my point and parroted what you've been saying for pages, again. My point isn't that a rapist is going to or not going to stop a rape because of a woman's clothing. My point is that there would be less rapes if women were more respected by society, and themselves, which involves dressing a way that is more self respecting.Your definition of respect isn't everyone else's, can I ask what would give you the authority to tell a woman what is and is not respectful of
her own body
? Really, I'm curious.
Sure! I'll tell you not only for a woman, and
her own body
, but for all humans. Drum roll. People should dress in a manner that is appropriate to their situation, and not designed to try to call attention to themselves out of pride. That's self respect.
I know it isn't the cool thing to do to say "maybe women shouldn't dress like @#$%s", but there you have it. Oh, and don't dump a bunch of "blaming the rape victim" google links on me. That has zero to do with what I'm talking about.
Post by
Patty
I think if women dressed more modestly, there would be less rape.Sorry but I disagree with this quite a lot: A rapist is going to hit a target, whether the target is wearing long baggy clothing or a micro-mini and a tube top. The clothing does not matter to the rapist.
You missed my point and parroted what you've been saying for pages, again. My point isn't that a rapist is going to or not going to stop a rape because of a woman's clothing. My point is that there would be less rapes if women were more respected by society, and themselves, which involves dressing a way that is more self respecting.Your definition of respect isn't everyone else's, can I ask what would give you the authority to tell a woman what is and is not respectful of
her own body
? Really, I'm curious.
Sure! I'll tell you not only for a woman, and
her own body
, but for all humans. Drum roll. People should dress in a manner that is appropriate to their situation, and not designed to try to call attention to themselves out of pride. That's self respect.
I know it isn't the cool thing to do to say "maybe women shouldn't dress like @#$%s", but there you have it. Oh, and don't dump a bunch of "blaming the rape victim" google links on me. That has zero to do with what I'm talking about.
That's cute. If you read them you'd find that it actually does. Only about 4% of rapes had any kind of "provocation", including any perceived seduction by dressing %^&*tily. It doesn't matter if you wear a mini skirt and a band of tape around your breasts or a full-body burqa, rape is still a very real threat for all women. Rape is often about power, not desire. So there you have it. Teach men to respect women and their bodies regardless of what they're wearing, and there you have it, less rapes disproportionately targeted against women.
Furthermore, they might actually wear something not because they want everyone else to see, but because they feel good about wearing it, and respect their bodies in it. An extreme example off the top of my head would be, say, a girl with body dysmorphia wearing shorts and a tank top and coming to terms with them self in public. It shouldn't be a question of if you personally find something tasteful or appropriate, or if it's seen as an invitation to rape somebody.
And you are basically saying women are to blame - by that logic because women are responsible for what they wear, they can be held accountable for wearing something "inviting" a rapist to defile them in an unspeakable way.
Post by
Skreeran
You missed my point and parroted what you've been saying for pages, again. My point isn't that a rapist is going to or not going to stop a rape because of a woman's clothing. My point is that there would be less rapes if women were more respected by society, and themselves, which involves dressing a way that is more self respecting.And my point is that the problem isn't with women, but with the rapists. There are a lot of different types of rapist, but they are all attacking an idea or a concept of women. They aren't attacking an individual, they are showing their domination over women, or attacking a perceived threat of women, or a mixture of those.
It has nothing to do with society's perception of women, or what an individual woman is wearing, or how much respect people have for them.
A rapist rapes because he is a sick individual, and it has nothing to do with the individual woman.
Post by
Patty
You missed my point and parroted what you've been saying for pages, again. My point isn't that a rapist is going to or not going to stop a rape because of a woman's clothing. My point is that there would be less rapes if women were more respected by society, and themselves, which involves dressing a way that is more self respecting.And my point is that the problem isn't with women, but with the rapists. There are a lot of differently types of rapist, but they are all attacking an idea or a concept of women. They aren't attacking an individual, they are showing their domination over women, or attacking a perceived threat of women, or a mixture of those.
It has nothing to do with society's perception of women, or what an individual woman is wearing, or how much respect people have for them.
A rapist rapes because he is a sick individual, and it has nothing to do with the individual woman.
Thank you.
Post by
MyTie
You see, this is our differing. This is the root of it. Let's strip everything else away. No one here is arguing that a woman deserves rape, so let's drop that. No one is arguing that women shouldn't be helped, so let's drop that.
I'm saying one thing different than you:
Women should also respect themselves, by dressing in an appropriate and modest manner.
You take what I say, and then twist it to say that I'm blaming rape victims. That's pretty lame, Patty. You should know better.And my point is that the problem isn't with women, but with the rapists. There are a lot of differently types of rapist, but they are all attacking an idea or a concept of women. They aren't attacking an individual, they are showing their domination over women, or attacking a perceived threat of women, or a mixture of those.
It has nothing to do with society's perception of women, or what an individual woman is wearing, or how much respect people have for them.
A rapist rapes because he is a sick individual, and it has nothing to do with the individual woman.
Ok, allow me to present your argument back to you, in a way that's sure to elicit the same indignation that you have from me.
Skreeran, you reject modest dress and Christianity, and say that those Christian values are to blame for this rape culture. A rapist is to blame for rape, not Christianity, Skreeran. You can't take any blame off of the rapist, and to try to excuse rape, and say that somehow this is someone else's fault, and she deserved it, is wrong. So, which is it, do you accept that women should be respected by themselves, and accept my view of the issue, or do you somehow excuse rape?
Post by
Patty
You see, this is our differing. This is the root of it. Let's strip everything else away. No one here is arguing that a woman deserves rape, so let's drop that. No one is arguing that women shouldn't be helped, so let's drop that.
I'm saying one thing different than you:
Women should also respect themselves, by dressing in an appropriate and modest manner.
You take what I say, and then twist it to say that I'm blaming rape victims. That's pretty lame, Patty. You should know better.
Mhm. Again, that's cute. Rape has been ongoing for, well, as long as human existence probably. Women didn't wear revealing clothing all that time, yet rape was still common. Throughout history, rape is a constant threat to women. So tell me, what is the correlation between "*!@#ty" clothing and rape, again?
I think women should respect themselves by wearing whatever the hell they want to because it's their own body and their own choice and it's not really any of my damned business.
Can I find things personally distasteful? Yes. Should I imply that modesty links with respect for women (when it doesn't, as the figures suggest)? No. Should I respect her and her making her own choices as I would any other human being I don't know regardless of what she wears? Yes. It's very simple, really.
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