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@ Feminism
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Post by
Skreeran
I don't recall taking blame off the rapist or excusing rape at all?
In fact, I'm pretty sure I said that it's exclusively his (or her, in some cases) fault.
Post by
Adamsm
Women should also respect themselves, by dressing in an appropriate and modest manner.According to who? I ask this completely seriously. I have a friend who enjoys wearing tight clothing as she feels her body looks good. I have another who wears baggy clothing as she doesn't like the way her body is. Both of them are respecting themselves, at least as far I understand the term; after all, they are dressing the way they want to dress, no matter how other people tut-tut at them for wearing tight/baggy clothing. And yes, I have heard others say that about my friend who wears the baggy clothes, that she would look prettier in more revealing things.
Post by
MyTie
I don't recall taking blame off the rapist or excusing rape at all?
In fact, I'm pretty sure I said that it's exclusively his (or her, in some cases) fault.
Let me tell you something, having values is not to blame for people being raped, Skreeran, rapists are to blame for rape. How dare you suggest otherwise. (are you feeling my feel yet?)Women should also respect themselves, by dressing in an appropriate and modest manner.According to who? I ask this completely seriously. I have a friend who enjoys wearing tight clothing as she feels her body looks good. I have another who wears baggy clothing as she doesn't like the way her body is. Both of them are respecting themselves, at least as far I understand the term; after all, they are dressing the way they want to dress, no matter how other people tut-tut at them for wearing tight/baggy clothing. And yes, I have heard others say that about my friend who wears the baggy clothes, that she would look prettier in more revealing things.
Women are largely objectified by society, and themselves. How would you suggest ending that?
Post by
Patty
By society stopping judging women for what they wear or look like and using that as a benchmark of their value. Again,
by teaching men to respect women based on more than their appearance
.
Post by
Skreeran
Honestly, I don't think we really can reduce forcible rape, besides heavily investigating it and bringing the perpetrators to justice.
One can argue that date rape and other alcohol related rapes could be reduced by teaching men to be more respectful of women, but honestly, I have a lot of respect for women, and I still have sick impulses because I have a psychological disease. I choose not to act on them, but women changing how they dress, or putting me in a class that tries to get me to respect women more will not take away those impulses.
Post by
MyTie
Again,
by teaching men to respect women based on more than their appearance
.
Patty, for the billion and a half time, we agree on this. We &*!@ing agree. You keep insisting on this like I need to learn it, or something. You bold it, even though I've been "bolding" it for several pages now. You are presenting this false dichotomy. Either I think that women should dress as #$%^ty as they want, or I somehow think that they should be raped. If you cannot drop the strawman false dichotomy, then I have little more to say to you about this issue.
If you DO insist on it, then I'm going to present a false dichotomy to you from now on. Either you agree that women should dress in a more self respectful manner, or you believe that we should cannibalize babies. Fair enough?Honestly, I don't think we really can reduce forcible rape, besides heavily investigating it and bringing the perpetrators to justice.
One can argue that date rape and other alcohol related rapes could be reduced by teaching men to be more respectful of women, but honestly, I have a lot of respect for women, and I still have sick impulses because I have a psychological disease. I choose not to act on them, but women changing how they dress, or putting me in a class that tries to get me to respect women more will not take away those impulses.
Do you think that society objectifies women?
Post by
Gone
Until recently the decision to prosecute/investigate rape in the military was left up to the unit commanders of those involved. I think that you can draw your own conclusions as to how messed up this was, especially if say, the commander in question was the rapist.
According to the department of defense’s 2010 annual report on sexual assaults in the military, there were 3158 reported incidents of sexual assault. Of this number, 748 of them were made as a restricted report, and of the 2410 non-restricted reports, 910 were dropped anyway. So, out of 3158 reported cases, 1658 were either not investigated, or immediately dropped upon reception of the report. Of the 1500 remaining cases, only 529 were court martialed, and of those 529, only 175 involved the perpetrator receiving any jail time.
I have no doubt that the US military takes rape very seriously, just like the penal system does, but that doesn't change the fact that prison and military rapes are a huge problem. It's not, as Patty says, a feminist issue though. A surprising number of men are raped during active duty military service as well. It's not an attitude of women being treated a certain way, it's more just the nature of the beast. People are vulnerable on deployment or when locked up, and predators take advantage of that.
Post by
Patty
Honestly, I don't think we really can reduce forcible rape, besides heavily investigating it and bringing the perpetrators to justice.
One can argue that date rape and other alcohol related rapes could be reduced by teaching men to be more respectful of women, but honestly, I have a lot of respect for women, and I still have sick impulses because I have a psychological disease. I choose not to act on them, but women changing how they dress, or putting me in a class that tries to get me to respect women more will not take away those impulses.
Tbh, the type of education I endorse has to start young. Like, really young. Because sexism can manifest itself at a very young age. I think once you've reached adulthood, it's much more difficult to change (as some posters in this thread have indicated). My hope is when we all die off the next generations will be more respectful to women and patriarchy dismantled, but. Well. I can dream, right?
Edit:
Until recently the decision to prosecute/investigate rape in the military was left up to the unit commanders of those involved. I think that you can draw your own conclusions as to how messed up this was, especially if say, the commander in question was the rapist.
According to the department of defense’s 2010 annual report on sexual assaults in the military, there were 3158 reported incidents of sexual assault. Of this number, 748 of them were made as a restricted report, and of the 2410 non-restricted reports, 910 were dropped anyway. So, out of 3158 reported cases, 1658 were either not investigated, or immediately dropped upon reception of the report. Of the 1500 remaining cases, only 529 were court martialed, and of those 529, only 175 involved the perpetrator receiving any jail time.
I have no doubt that the US military takes rape very seriously, just like the penal system does, but that doesn't change the fact that prison and military rapes are a huge problem. It's not, as Patty says, a feminist issue though. A surprising number of men are raped during active duty military service as well. It's not an attitude of women being treated a certain way, it's more just the nature of the beast. People are vulnerable on deployment or when locked up, and predators take advantage of that.
Rape as power. Women in military service are more likely to be raped than killed in warfare. I never claimed it just affected women, but again, it's disproportionate. Just like rape in any context. Which we have all previously established.
Post by
Adamsm
Women are largely objectified by society, and themselves. How would you suggest ending that?
By society stopping judging women for what they wear or look like and using that as a benchmark of their value. Again,
by teaching men to respect women based on more than their appearance
.
^ This, or at least stop setting up two different standards; one of the prime arguments to get it made legal for women to go topless up here in Canada was that men could already do it. Don't put different standards on both genders and treat them both with respect.
Post by
MyTie
Women are largely objectified by society, and themselves. How would you suggest ending that?
By society stopping judging women for what they wear or look like and using that as a benchmark of their value. Again,
by teaching men to respect women based on more than their appearance
.
^ This, or at least stop setting up two different standards; one of the prime arguments to get it made legal for women to go topless up here in Canada was that men could already do it. Don't put different standards on both genders and treat them both with respect.
So, dressing modestly has nothing to do with ending the objectification of women. You feel that we end the objectification of women by helping them to go topless.
Post by
Skreeran
So, dressing modestly has nothing to do with ending the objectification of women. You feel that we end the objectification of women by helping them to go topless.No, I think that's a false dichotomy. It's about teaching men to respect women
independent
of their clothing, rather than changing the clothing.
Look how much clothes fundamentalist Muslim women wear, and tell me they are not objectified.
Post by
Gone
Rape as power. Women in military service are more likely to be raped than killed in warfare. I never claimed it just affected women, but again, it's disproportionate. Just like rape in any context.
That doesn't necessarily make it a feminist issue. It's not because of a societal attitude about women or a permissive attitude about rape though. It's just a matter of it being easier to get away with. If there was never any patriarchy and men and women were viewed as completely equal in every aspect, rape would still be a greater danger in the military than it would be in day to day life.
^ This, or at least stop setting up two different standards; one of the prime arguments to get it made legal for women to go topless up here in Canada was that men could already do it. Don't put different standards on both genders and treat them both with respect.
Do men have breasts? I'm not making a judgment one way or another here about the topless issue. However, in some ways men and women are not the same. Women have sex organs on their chest, it's not a matter of being viewed equally, its biology. It's like female soldiers or firefighters being given time off on their periods. It's not unequal treatment based on sexism, it's unequal treatment based on men and women being biologically different.
Post by
Adamsm
No we end the objectification when people stop acting like what a person wears is somehow important...and tell me, why is it only women? Why aren't people trying to keep males from being objectified too?
Also MyTie: You say that a women should dress more modestly out of respect...but who's ideal of respect? Yours? The Governments? Why does the personal respect that a person has for themselves get trumped by someone else? Isn't that exact same thing that is suppose to be fought against? Because really, forcing someone to wear a specific type of clothing, no matter what their personal preference is, feels like a type of oppression.
And honestly: I do see the fact that women can go topless is a win for them; as said there, the prime argument was that if it's hot a guy can just rip off his shirt and not be arrested for indecent exposure, but if a woman does it, she's going to get hassled by the cops.
Do men have breasts? I'm not making a judgment one way or another here about the topless issue. However, in some ways men and women are not the same. Women have sex organs on their chest, it's not a matter of being viewed equally, its biology. It's like female soldiers or firefighters being given time off on their periods. It's not unequal treatment based on sexism, it's unequal treatment based on men and women being biologically different.
And yet, as I said above, why is it indecent when it's a woman, but not a male?
Post by
MyTie
So, dressing modestly has nothing to do with ending the objectification of women. You feel that we end the objectification of women by helping them to go topless.No, I think that's a false dichotomy. It's about teaching men to respect women
independent
of their clothing, rather than changing the clothing.
Look how much clothes fundamentalist Muslim women wear, and tell me they are not objectified.
Theirs is a social legal objectification. Ours is a sexual objectification. Those are two different issues.
I'm just shocked that you guys are so clearly against modest dress as a way to end the sexual objectification in current western society. Watch a little TV, or walk by some supermarket magazines. We are inundated with the insistance that women are sexual objects, both men and women are taught this. My daughter, for example, I have to teach her that she is more than a sexual lust object, and not to fall victim to the idea that she should dress like this,
IN *!@#ING ADDITION (PATTY) THAT SHE SHOULDN'T BE A RAPE VICTIM.
Post by
Gone
No we end the objectification when people stop acting like what a person wears is somehow important...and tell me, why is it only women? Why aren't people trying to keep males from being objectified too?
Also MyTie: You say that a women should dress more modestly out of respect...but who's ideal of respect? Yours? The Governments? Why does the personal respect that a person has for themselves get trumped by someone else? Isn't that exact same thing that is suppose to be fought against? Because really, forcing someone to wear a specific type of clothing, no matter what their personal preference is, feels like a type of oppression.
And honestly: I do see the fact that women can go topless is a win for them; as said there, the prime argument was that if it's hot a guy can just rip off his shirt and not be arrested for indecent exposure, but if a woman does it, she's going to get hassled by the cops.
Do men have breasts? I'm not making a judgment one way or another here about the topless issue. However, in some ways men and women are not the same. Women have sex organs on their chest, it's not a matter of being viewed equally, its biology. It's like female soldiers or firefighters being given time off on their periods. It's not unequal treatment based on sexism, it's unequal treatment based on men and women being biologically different.
And yet, as I said above, why is it indecent when it's a woman, but not a male?
I'm not necessarily saying it is or is not indecent, but women have organs on their chest that men do not. You can pretend breasts and pecs or man %^&* or whatever are the same thing, but they're not. Just like male MMA fighters where cups but women don't. Because men have testicles and women do not. Women have breasts, men do not, their chests are not the same. It's not a way of viewing them, its anatomy.
Equality is fine, but ignoring biological differences between men and women is ridicules.
Post by
Skreeran
I think breasts as sex organs is mainly a Western thing. In Ancient Greece or Modern Brazil, a woman can walk about topless and no one would bat an eye, because there was no taboo. There was no reason to cover them up. Here, because they are hidden and treated as sex organs, people grow up treating them like sex organs.
My mom nursed my brother and sister in front of me when I was a kid, and I never saw anything wrong with it until she decided it was no longer appropriate.
Likewise, in more conservative cultures, a woman showing her face in public might be breaking a significant taboo.Theirs is a social legal objectification. Ours is a sexual objectification. Those are two different issues.
I'm just shocked that you guys are so clearly against modest dress as a way to end the sexual objectification in current western society. Watch a little TV, or walk by some supermarket magazines. We are inundated with the insistance that women are sexual objects, both men and women are taught this.I just don't see how it would help.
Whether the magazines are showing women covering their breasts with their hands, or flashing their ankle under a thick dress and a giving a naughty look, the amount of clothes has little to do, in my eyes, with the message being sent.
The objectification of women is an issue independent of the amount of clothes women wear.
Post by
MyTie
forcing someone to wear a specific type of clothing
Let's stop right here. I want you to either admit this is a strawman, or show where I have ever said this. You will not be addressed in this debate until you back up and correct this. You do this way to often, and although the mods won't let me force you to address your strawmen in every thread, I can make you address the strawmen you make in those particular threads. So, either rescind this, or you and I are done talking about it.
Post by
Gone
I think breasts as sex organs is mainly a Western thing. In Ancient Greece or Modern Brazil, a woman can walk about topless and no one would bat an eye, because there was no taboo. There was no reason to cover them up. Here, because they are hidden and treated as sex organs, people grow up treating them like sex organs.
My mom nursed my brother and sister in front of me when I was a kid, and I never saw anything wrong with it until she decided it was no longer appropriate.
Likewise, in more conservative cultures, a woman showing her face in public might be breaking a significant taboo.
One could make the same argument about having sex with children. The Greeks did it, it was practiced up until the middle ages, and in some cultures it's still acceptable. Only in our society do we decide it's indecent.
I want to emphasize again, I'm not saying necessarily that a woman going topless is indecent, not am I saying it's not, I don't wanna get in that debate. I'm just saying that trying to view men and women equally in areas where we have physical, biological differences, is faulty reasoning.
Post by
Skreeran
Sure, women are biologically different from men. I just don't think there is anything inherently sexual about breasts. They're not even physiologically related to sex.
Post by
Gone
Sure, women are biologically different from men. I just don't think there is anything inherently sexual about breasts. They're not even physiologically related to sex.
It's how they're viewed though. Set aside that breasts have been a symbol of female sexuality for thousands of years. In most cultures, breasts are almost unanimously viewed as sexual organs. It's all about the way they are viewed in the culture in question. And people in Canada certainly view breasts sexually.
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