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@ Feminism
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Post by
Adamsm
I'm not necessarily saying it is or is not indecent, but women have organs on their chest that men do not. You can pretend breasts and pecs or man %^&* or whatever are the same thing, but they're not. Just like male MMA fighters where cups but women don't. Because men have testicles and women do not. Women have breasts, men do not, their chests are not the same. It's not a way of viewing them, its anatomy.
Equality is fine, but ignoring biological differences between men and women is ridicules.
Okay...so tell me: Why is it somehow wrong that a women walks around topless? Since breasts are used to feed a child, that's pretty much it. Yes we see them as something sexual..but then again, a guy without a shirt can be sexy too; so it seems like that should be indecent exposure as well.
The only reason that titty's should be covered up seems to be because of the big nudity taboo that the West labors under.
As for what the entertainment world tells people what they should or should not wear....okay. I don't buy into the whole ideals that those images push, and it's sad that some do...so does that mean we should make them go away?
To me, if a woman has respect for herself, and she enjoys dressing in skimpy clothing: That's her right. No one else has the right to order her to put on more clothing.
Post by
MyTie
~
lol
You cannot have an honest debate, can you?
@Everyone else-
I gotta go. I'll be back later.
Post by
Gone
Okay...so tell me: Why is it somehow wrong that a women walks around topless? Since breasts are used to feed a child, that's pretty much it. Yes we see them as something sexual..but then again, a guy without a shirt can be sexy too; so it seems like that should be indecent exposure as well.
The only reason that titty's should be covered up seems to be because of the big nudity taboo that the West labors under.
As for what the entertainment world tells people what they should or should not wear....okay. I don't buy into the whole ideals that those images push, and it's sad that some do...so does that mean we should make them go away?
To me, if a woman has respect for herself, and she enjoys dressing in skimpy clothing: That's her right. No one else has the right to order her to put on more clothing.
I told you, I never said it was. On a societal level? Because we all have to live together in society, and if the majority thinks something is indecent, then they have the right to go about their day not seeing it. This is why we live in a democratic society.
If breasts are viewed as sexual by the majority of society, which they are, then that means they are sex organs in that society.
There's nothing sexual about deification either, but we decide that isn't allowed in public. Not that I'm comparing breasts to feces. Honestly, I think breasts are just awesome, most heterosexual men do. But that's kind of the point. In western culture they are considered sex organs. It's not a taboo we suffer under, it's the way society is, and people should be able to drive down the street with their kids without seeing other people's sex organs.
Post by
Adamsm
In that same vein, people should be able to drive down the street without their kid seeing a guy naked 'sexy' chest as well.
And it seems more like boobs are considered Sexy then Sex Organs to most.
And you are right, we do live in a democratic society: Which is why there was a vote on making it legal for women to walk around topless.
Edit: Really? The plural form of Titty is still censored?
Post by
MyTie
people should be able to drive down the street with their kids without seeing other people's sex organs.
Ostensibly, you are forcing, judgmental, and rape excusing. There is no honesty here, just self promoting moral superiority.
Post by
Gone
In that same vein, people should be able to drive down the street without their kid seeing a guy naked 'sexy' chest as well.
Like I said, it's just not viewed the same.
Post by
Adamsm
In that same vein, people should be able to drive down the street without their kid seeing a guy naked 'sexy' chest as well.
Like I said, it's just not viewed the same.
Which is the point of why it's still ass backwards that a woman can get arrested for it.
Post by
Gone
In that same vein, people should be able to drive down the street without their kid seeing a guy naked 'sexy' chest as well.
Like I said, it's just not viewed the same.
Which is the point of why it's still ass backwards that a woman can get arrested for it.
That's a legal issue, it has nothing to do with the comparison. What I'm saying is that in terms of sexuality and what's decent or indecent, it comes down to how society views things, and society views breasts as more sexual than a man's bare chest. If men and women both had breasts, and were still viewed differently when topless, then you would have a point about how backwards and silly it is. But physically, men and women are just not the same in this matter. I don't think it's inherently backwards to view a woman's chest as more sexual than a man's, since there are physical differences.
Post by
Adamsm
You are right, they are not the same physically, but the so-called reasons for why women shouldn't have their shirts off can be applied to men as well: That it could excite people, that it's sexual, and so on and so forth.
It is something that should change in regards to how society views things. I've seen women go around topless before, and other then a double look to see if what I just saw was what I saw, I just kept going on doing what I was doing.
Post by
Gone
You are right, they are not the same physically, but the so-called reasons for why women shouldn't have their shirts off can be applied to men as well: That it could excite people, that it's sexual, and so on and so forth.
That's where society's view comes into play. As I've said, people
view
female breasts as sexual organs, where as a shirtless man can be sexy, but isn't inherently so in people's eyes. A shirtless man is more the equivalent of a woman wearing a low cut top or a short skirt. It reveals a lot, but doesn't show any of what people consider 'sex parts'.
Post by
Skreeran
But don't you understand? Taboos aren't broken by conforming with them. Society doesn't just all up and say "This taboo we have is stupid. Let's get rid of it." all at once. It takes people pushing it to change things. The fact that women who don't think the taboo against breasts is justified can't be arrested anymore for pushing it is a victory. Now people who support the taboo can say "I am going to keep my breasts covered, because I think that's the right thing to do," and people who don't support the taboo can say "I'm going to expose my breasts because I think that taboo is stupid," and no one will get arrested.
Post by
Adamsm
But don't you understand? Taboos aren't broken by conforming with them. Society doesn't just all up and say "This taboo we have is stupid. Let's get rid of it." all at once. It takes people pushing it to change things. The fact that women who don't think the taboo against breasts is justified can't be arrested anymore for pushing it is a victory. Now people who support the taboo can say "I am going to keep my breasts covered, because I think that's the right thing to do," and people who don't support the taboo can say "I'm going to expose my breasts because I think that taboo is stupid," and no one will get arrested.
As usual Skree says it much more elegantly.
Post by
Gone
But don't you understand? Taboos aren't broken by conforming with them. Society doesn't just all up and say "This taboo we have is stupid. Let's get rid of it." all at once. It takes people pushing it to change things. The fact that women who don't think the taboo against breasts is justified can't be arrested anymore for pushing it is a victory. Now people who support the taboo can say "I am going to keep my breasts covered, because I think that's the right thing to do," and people who don't support the taboo can say "I'm going to expose my breasts because I think that taboo is stupid," and no one will get arrested.
You're making the assumption that taboos
should
be broken. Some should yes, but this one? People viewing breasts as sexual isn't necessarily a taboo, and even if it was, who is being oppressed? A woman who claims she's being oppressed for not being able to walk down the street topless won't be getting any sympathy for me. That isn't oppression.
@Adam. I'm a bit confused, is this currently illegal in Canada? I got the impression from your posts that the law passed and women can go topless now, but then you also said they can still be arrested for it.
Post by
Adamsm
It is a taboo though Ryja: Most of those who were arrested argued that women shouldn't be treated differently then men in this case and that there is a double standard that men are allowed to do it but women aren't. They aren't arrested anymore, but when they first fought against people were being arrested.
Post by
Gone
It is a taboo though Ryja
A taboo is the way something is perceived, but sexual desire, or concepts as vague as "indecency" are all about perception.
Maybe it's a taboo, but does that mean people who are uncomfortable around it should have their freedom infringed upon? I think that when we live in a society we have certain social contracts to adhere to such society.
Personally? I don't have a huge problem with women being topless in and of itself. The problem comes when it infringes upon other people. There are people who do consider it in decent and would be made uncomfortable by being forced to be around it. There is also the issue of people with kids. People who do consider breasts sexual wouldn't want their children exposed to nudity, and could begin to fear to even take them out in public.
I'll ask again, is this currently legal or illegal?
Post by
Skreeran
It's not so much about oppression in my mind. It's more about people being able to do what they believe is right. A man liking ponies is taboo where I live, but I think that taboo is unjustified and stupid, and I'm glad I can't be arrested for it.
Edit: Imagine it this way: What if Texas parents didn't want their kids to see a man wearing a pink pony shirt, because they considered that indecent for a man to wear. I don't agree with it, but I still get harassed by the police, telling me to put on a different shirt.
Post by
Adamsm
People who do consider breasts sexual wouldn't want their children exposed to nudity, and could begin to fear to even take them out in public.Which is why it's better to break the taboo. Stop it from being seen as weird/freaky or whatever, and then the issue steadily goes away.
I'll ask again, is this currently legal or illegal?I've already said it's legal; it's also legal in a few states in the US.
Post by
Gone
It's not so much about oppression in my mind. It's more about people being able to do what they believe is right. A man liking ponies is taboo where I live, but I think that taboo is unjustified and stupid, and I'm glad I can't be arrested for it.
That's different though. People's sexual perception of breasts is largely about visual stimulation. And a big part of the fear of them being 'out there' is that people are unwilling subjected to this visual stimulation (no pun intended), including children.
Liking ponies is different. You liking ponies doesn't beam episodes of MLP into the brains of everybody you come into contact with. A woman walking around topless exposes everybody around her to the same sexual taboo we have been talking about.
People who do consider breasts sexual wouldn't want their children exposed to nudity, and could begin to fear to even take them out in public.Which is why it's better to break the taboo. Stop it from being seen as weird/freaky or whatever, and then the issue steadily goes away.
I'll ask again, is this currently legal or illegal?I've already said it's legal; it's also legal in a few states in the US.
Sorry I missed where you said it.
That's your opinion about the taboo being broken, not everybody feels that way, especially people who don't want their kids exposed to sexuality in public.
I'm not saying I necessarily feel that way, just playing devils advocate here. There are many taboos that I think shouldn't be broken. Incest for example. But then there are some taboos that should be, like interracial marriage.
Post by
Adamsm
And it's really one of the dumber taboos the Western World has.
Post by
Skreeran
But the hope is that taboo can be broken. Like I said, as I child, I saw nothing wrong with seeing my mom nurse my brother and sister. It wasn't until that taboo was hammered into my head that I ever associated it with anything wrong. The hope is that once it's a more common thing, people won't be so opposed to it.
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