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Post by
Skreeran
...and cut more than half their readerbase off
DC did a poll of readers of their new 52 series and found that 93% were male and 7% were female. You can argue about what came first, the chicken or the egg; however, the fact of the matter is that historically the target demographic for comics is young males, and the numbers continue to show that. Do you know for a fact that given a perfectly gender neutral comic would attract equal numbers of both genders? Do you know if overall readership would go up? These are marketing questions which I don't think are particularly relevant to the issue at hand.Why would girls read comics that are targeted exclusively at boys?
It's like saying "Historically the target demographic for My Little Pony has been little girls. Did you know in a recent poll, it was found that 99% of My Little Pony fans were female. Thus, we're justified in keeping it as girly and exclusive as it is presently."
That was basically Hasbro's stance up until Lauren Faust was put in charge of rebooting the MLP franchise and decided to reboot it as a family cartoon instead of a girl's cartoon.
And then look what happened.
Dismiss bronies as a freak thing, but the fact is, boys and girls are just two types of human beings. We live in an age where it's okay for girls to like boy things and boys to like girl things. Cutting off half of the population because they have a different bit in their pants is going to lose you customers.
Post by
Gone
Nobody in mainstream superhero comics has a well defined personality anymore. The characters have spanned too many years, and too many writers, and are now just a collection of iconic personality traits that they've garnered over the years.
That being said, I've always considered the legitimate feminist beef with superhero comics to be that it's often only the women that are so oversexualized. That's usually my litmus test for deciding whether something is a feminist issue or not, "is it gender neutral?" If not, then I usually consider it something worthy of feminist attention. Not saying its always applicable, but most things aren't for such complex issues.
Post by
Eccentrica
Why ought things to be gender neutral, though? Why the push to neutralize darned near everything? What is wrong with his, hers and ours?
Post by
Gone
Why ought things to be gender neutral, though? Why the push to neutralize darned near everything? What is wrong with his, hers and ours?
When I said "issue" I meant "problem." There are subjects that can be gender specific, for example, talking to your kids about sex and puberty, and not be problematic. It's when something might be an actual problem that is gender specific that it becomes an addressable issue for feminism.
Post by
Eccentrica
I wrote with your example of superhero comics in mind, though I did not reference it directly. If, as someone has suggested, the predominant audience for DC comics is young males (who are generally sailing boldly and fearlessly across the Testosterone Seas or who are about to embark on that particular journey) then why shouldn't comics exist which are tailored to their particular interests?
It's not as if other types of comics cannot be published which are tailored to girls and then those which are designed for broader appeal.
This is what I meant by his, hers and ours.
Post by
Adamsm
An example of sexy superheroines done right might be
Empowered
, a comic about a sexy lady in skintight clothing who likes to have sex, but also has a really well defined personality and is the main character in her series.
Um........Skree....you um, you know, may actually want to read an issue of that comic before you judge something like that, as 99% of the images for Empowered cannot be shown here, as this forum has a rating of PG.
Leaving aside of course, the fact that Empowered is actually satire of the Superhero genre.
Edit: Or you know, take a stroll through the
TVTropes page on it.
Post by
Gone
I wrote with your example of superhero comics in mind, though I did not reference it directly. If, as someone has suggested, the predominant audience for DC comics is young males (who are generally sailing boldly and fearlessly across the Testosterone Seas or who are about to embark on that particular journey) then why shouldn't comics exist which are tailored to their particular interests?
It's not as if other types of comics cannot be published which are tailored to girls and then those which are designed for broader appeal.
This is what I meant by his, hers and ours.
The issue isn't that you can't have overly sexualized female characters in order to appeal to the male audience. The issue with comics in regards to feminism, as I see it, are that the female characters are the only ones being over sexualized.
Imagine watching a gritty police drama, where all the male characters wore suits and ties, and all the female characters wore Daisy Duke shorts and buttoned shirts with the bottom half undone and tied in a knot under their $%^&. That's the equivalent of what comic books do.
Post by
Eccentrica
And I would decidedly not watch those shows, but by the same token I also don't read those comics. They don't appeal to me.
Why insist they change the comic though? Why not read something else, or create something else if nothing else exists?
This harkens back to my earlier comment on Scouts. Why did they have to take a boys club away from boys instead of just creating a new club for boys AND girls?
I fail to see what is gained from the 'I don't like that and don't want that so you can't have it either' stance.
Post by
Gone
And I would decidedly not watch those shows, but by the same token I also don't read those comics. They don't appeal to me.
Why insist they change the comic though? Why not read something else, or create something else if nothing else exists?
This harkens back to my earlier comment on Scouts. Why did they have to take a boys club away from boys instead of just creating a new club for boys AND girls?
I fail to see what is gained from the 'I don't like that and don't want that so you can't have it either' stance.
I never necessarily said they should change comics. Any creator has control over their own art, and has the right to publish anything they want. However if a feminist chooses not to read the comic, or organize a boycott, or not allow his/her children to read them, then that's they're right as well.
Now to answer the question why "should" they change the comic? A few reasons off the top of my head are that it alienates female readers, it doesn't exactly help young male readers to relate well to women, and it generally perpetuates a negative stereotype. That being said, just because they should change (and I'm, not even necessarily saying they should), doesn't mean they have to.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
We live in an age where it's okay for girls to like boy things and boys to like girl things. Cutting off half of the population because they have a different bit in their pants is going to lose you customers.
You're just contradicting yourself here. You say there's nothing wrong with girls liking boy things (i.e. the comics in question), but then you blame the comic companies for cutting off the girls. Which is it? Either there really are "girl things" and "boy things" out there (things that appeal mostly to one or the other gender), in which case why the hell shouldn't we be able to produce those things without the issue of sexism coming up. Or that is all just binary gender construct and anybody can like anything, in which case it's nobody's fault that girls only make up 7% of the readership and it's simply a fluke of statistics.
it doesn't exactly help young male readers to relate well to women, and it generally perpetuates a negative stereotype.
I find that just as ridiculous as saying video games make people violent. There are people who cannot separate fantasy from reality. Those people have psychological problems and are abnormal. A normal person does play grand theft auto and then steal cars. A normal person does not read a comic and expect women to run around in a bikini everywhere.
Post by
Skreeran
An example of sexy superheroines done right might be
Empowered
, a comic about a sexy lady in skintight clothing who likes to have sex, but also has a really well defined personality and is the main character in her series.
Um........Skree....you um, you know, may actually want to read an issue of that comic before you judge something like that, as 99% of the images for Empowered cannot be shown here, as this forum has a rating of PG.
Leaving aside of course, the fact that Empowered is actually satire of the Superhero genre.
Edit: Or you know, take a stroll through the
TVTropes page on it.
I know it has a lot of sex in it. But you have to understand, that's not the point. The point is that she's a well rounded, relatable character, not just a sex object, like a lot of superheroines.
You're just contradicting yourself here. You say there's nothing wrong with girls liking boy things (i.e. the comics in question), but then you blame the comic companies for cutting off the girls. Which is it? Either there really are "girl things" and "boy things" out there (things that appeal mostly to one or the other gender), in which case why the hell shouldn't we be able to produce those things without the issue of sexism coming up. Or that is all just binary gender construct and anybody can like anything, in which case it's nobody's fault that girls only make up 7% of the readership and it's simply a fluke of statistics.You can make something "girly" or "boyish" without making it exclusive. Look at the modern incarnation of My Little Pony. It is still a show for girls. It stars all-female characters with several different female character archetypes, in a land of unicorns and rainbows that's ruled by a Princess. Not unlike past My Little Pony cartoons.
But there's a HUGE deal of difference between those past cartoons and the modern one. The show is
targeted
at girls without excluding everyone else. It's aimed at a female audience, but is also appealing to some males. Do you understand?
You could make a comic
aimed
at a male audience without having to include anything particularly offensive to females. And if you're dead set on excluding most females, then at least offer an alternative for females.
I'm not saying all big-budget comics have to be gender neutral. I'm saying it'd be nice if not all of them weren't.
Post by
Adamsm
I know it has a lot of sex in it. But you have to understand, that's not the point. The point is that she's a well rounded, relatable character, not just a sex object, like a lot of superheroines.
A character who has a supersuit that makes her invincible...and yet, within moments of fighting someone, she loses it and usually ends up bound and gagged, is 'relatable'?
Edit: If you want 'relatable' superheroes, I'd suggest looking up the Boys, as even for being a superhero comic, the characters are realistic...of course, this is a world where a corporation makes supers, so the idea of the women being in skin tight clothing is actually a marketing point for them, as a way to sell them.
Plus you know...the Female,
just the Female.
Post by
Skreeran
I know it has a lot of sex in it. But you have to understand, that's not the point. The point is that she's a well rounded, relatable character, not just a sex object, like a lot of superheroines.
A character who has a supersuit that makes her invincible...and yet, within moments of fighting someone, she loses it and usually ends up bound and gagged, is 'relatable'?
Edit: If you want 'relatable' superheroes, I'd suggest looking up the Boys, as even for being a superhero comic, the characters are realistic...of course, this is a world where a corporation makes supers, so the idea of the women being in skin tight clothing is actually a marketing point for them, as a way to sell them.
Plus you know...the Female,
just the Female.
Did you watch that CBG19 video up there?
Post by
Adamsm
I've read some of the issues for the comics Skree; Empowered is up there with any of the females from DC/Marvel, just more of a comedic thing....well at first. Recent issues have really gone dark.
Post by
Skreeran
I've read some of the issues for the comics Skree; Empowered is up there with any of the females from DC/Marvel, just more of a comedic thing....well at first. Recent issues have really gone dark.Well, from what CBG19 says, it started out as mostly pure cheesecake, but as it went on, she got a lot of depth to her character. Things like body issues, relationships, fitting in with her group and so on.
I haven't read it myself, but CBG19 is my go to girl for this sort of thing, and she calls Empowered one of the best, most relatable superheroines in a long time.
Post by
Gone
I find that just as ridiculous as saying video games make people violent. There are people who cannot separate fantasy from reality. Those people have psychological problems and are abnormal. A normal person does play grand theft auto and then steal cars. A normal person does not read a comic and expect women to run around in a bikini everywhere.
You're taking using too extreme of an example. Yes maybe a person might not run right out and steal a car, but prolonged exposure can still have more subtle psychological effects. Note that I never said it would damage kids ability to relate to women, just that it doesn't do as much to forward it as entertainment mediums that portray women in a more sexually equal light.
Post by
Adamsm
I've read some of the issues for the comics Skree; Empowered is up there with any of the females from DC/Marvel, just more of a comedic thing....well at first. Recent issues have really gone dark.Well, from what CBG19 says, it started out as mostly pure cheesecake, but as it went on, she got a lot of depth to her character. Things like body issues, relationships, fitting in with her group and so on.
I haven't read it myself, but CBG19 is my go to girl for this sort of thing, and she calls Empowered one of the best, most relatable superheroines in a long time.
/shrug That might be her opinion, but then again, you can say that about pretty much every single super heroine out there...when they don't get hit hard with rewrites and lose out on their character depth.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
I wrote a big, long reply and Wowhead borked it. Oh well.
TL;DR - You can write/read/support and media that has no gender-bias all you want. But clearly the is some amount of content that boys like more than girls. Arguing the marketing or psychological advantages of the former does not automatically render the later as ethically suspect.
Post by
Gone
I wrote a big, long reply and Wowhead borked it. Oh well.
TL;DR - You can write/read/support and media that has no gender-bias all you want. But clearly the is some amount of content that boys like more than girls. Arguing the marketing or psychological advantages of the former does not automatically render the later as ethically suspect.
I'll repost my earlier response to Eccentrica:
When I said "issue" I meant "problem." There are subjects that can be gender specific, for example, talking to your kids about sex and puberty, and not be problematic. It's when something might be an actual problem that is gender specific that it becomes an addressable issue for feminism.
The same reasoning applies here. There's nothing wrong with media being biased towards one gender or another. Say what you want about the gender lines being blurred, shows like Sex and the City will always appeal more to women, and shows like Spartacus will always appeal more to men. I never said that there was anything wrong with media appealing more to one gender than another. What I said was that it becomes an issue for feminism when this bias is found to be harmful or negative in some way.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Found by whom? Feminists? Couch psychology? Longitudinal research? Harmful to the individual or the median? How harmful is too harmful? At what point intervention ethically required?
Why are these never the starting point? Because it seem like people (feminists) who argue this positions care less about actual science/ethics and more about men not enjoying "sexy" women being portrayed. Because apparently it's harmful to be a straight male.
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