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@ Feminism
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Post by
Skreeran
Tbh I think that men and women will always have somewhat different roles in society. I'm not saying it should always be "men are the workers, women are caregivers, etc". But I think some things will always appeal more to one gender than another.
There are lots of female gamers out there, but videos games are still by and large thought of as a "boys club" type of thing, and I think that's why a lot of the developers pander to that market.I suppose. Perhaps it just bothers me because I am a man, but I don't like
hypersexualization
or shoving women into damsel or support roles either. Honestly, I enjoy a good female character just as much as a good male character, and because women and men
are
different, there are some elements that female heroes pull off even better than male heroes. Besides just being sexy.
Of course, see
Other M
for how to do this
wrong
(mildly NSFW). So, so wrong.
Post by
Jubilee
I think a push for more female video game characters would be meritorious if there was a prevailing conscious attitude of rejecting them. But I don't think that's the case. I don't think there are very many executives up there listening to game proposals with female protagonists and rejecting them for that or forcing it to be rewritten with a male characters. From what I can see, it more just that people are coming up with ideas quite innocently, and most of the ideas happen to feature male main characters. I'm not going to fault a talented or hard-working writer for coming up with a male protagonist, and I'm surely not going to tell him to rewrite it with a lead woman.
I do think discovering the societal and psychological reasons that the sexual bias exists is a worthy endeavor, and if there are changes that can be made to raise a new generation of artists, designers, and writers to have more ideas for good media that feature women, I'm all for that too.
Post by
Gone
Ugh, Other M was a disgrace, The fans have been vocal enough about that game where (hopefully) the creators will never,
ever
pull that &*!@ again.
Tbh I think that Princess Peach and Zelda do less harm to the image of women in video games than hyper sexualized characters who have ridiculas features meant more as eye candy than anything else, like a few incarnations of Laura Croft in the early 2000s.
I think Samus is the perfect example of the "badass" video game chick. She mows down legions of space pirates and aliens, and manages to do it without shaking her ass during every cutscene. Another example of why Other M was a travesty, they managed to have her suit fall off every other scene. Although that still wasn't as stupid as the scene where she see's Ridley and freaks out. It's not like she's killed that stupid dragon a few dozen times over now /eyeroll
I do think discovering the societal and psychological reasons that the sexual bias exists is a worthy endeavor, and if there are changes that can be made to raise a new generation of artists, designers, and writers to have more ideas for good media that feature women, I'm all for that too.
I think it's just that for a long time the most video game fans have been male, and it's easier for some men to identify with a male protagonist.
Post by
Patty
Ugh, Other M was a disgrace, The fans have been vocal enough about that game where (hopefully) the creators will never,
ever
pull that &*!@ again.
Tbh I think that Princess Peach and Zelda do less harm to the image of women in video games than hyper sexualized characters who have ridiculas features meant more as eye candy than anything else, like a few incarnations of Laura Croft in the early 2000s.
I think Samus is the perfect example of the "badass" video game chick. She mows down legions of space pirates and aliens, and manages to do it without shaking her ass during every cutscene. Another example of why Other M was a travesty, they managed to have her suit fall off every other scene. Although that still wasn't as stupid as the scene where she see's Ridley and freaks out. It's not like she's killed that stupid dragon a few dozen times over now /eyeroll
I do think discovering the societal and psychological reasons that the sexual bias exists is a worthy endeavor, and if there are changes that can be made to raise a new generation of artists, designers, and writers to have more ideas for good media that feature women, I'm all for that too.
I think it's just that for a long time the most video game fans have been male, and it's easier for some men to identify with a male protagonist.
Frankly, that's pretty bull. :P YA girls and guys have all managed to identify with protagonists such as Harry Potter and Katniss Everdeen, within reason. I think that argument is really doing a disservice to guys. I think people identify with stories and personalities, rather than a specific gender, when it comes to a character.
Also, a lot of the "badass" popular female characters, in almost all forms of media, are usually quite masculine in their actions. Characters like Lightning, or Samus, or even Lara Croft, are usually acting like
male
action heroes, or are very tomboyish, for example. Femininity is often viewed as a weakness, or even something to dislike. I think the whole idea of girls having to take on masculine characteristics to be likable is just utter crap and should be done away with entirely. Those girl characters who aren't very masculine are often relegated to being love interests, especially in gaming. I get the reasons why, but they only explain so much.
Post by
Gone
Frankly, that's pretty bull. :P YA girls and guys have all managed to identify with protagonists such as Harry Potter and Katniss Everdeen, within reason. I think that argument is really doing a disservice to guys. I think people identify with stories and personalities, rather than a specific gender, when it comes to a character.
Also, a lot of the "badass" popular female characters, in almost all forms of media, are usually quite masculine in their actions. Characters like Lightning, or Samus, or even Lara Croft, are usually acting like male action heroes, or are very tomboyish, for example. Femininity is often viewed as a weakness, or even something to dislike. I think the whole idea of girls having to take on masculine characteristics to be likable is just utter crap and should be done away with entirely. Those girl characters who aren't very masculine are often relegated to being love interests, especially in gaming. I get the reasons why, but they only explain so much.
Marketing 101, assume your audience is stupid. A lot of advertising companies don'e give the audience much credit. Also remember a lot of the games we have been talking about aren't just marketed at men, their marketed at teenage boys and children.
I agree it's bull, but it's also a very real fact of the way the media operates. It's really the big mainstream names that refuse to come into the light. Women are getting a more and more prominent and substantial role in a lot of games, but the companies with the old school iconic names refuse to adapt their characters.
To use a similar example look at comic books. There are lots of graphic novels with plenty of badass female roles who don't need to be a damsel in distress or eye candy. For example, I know you like Andrea's character in the Walking Dead comic. But then look at the really big old companies like Marvel and DC, every female role is a stripper. Could you imagine if they changed Spiderman's costume to like, short shorts and a a tank top? The fans would riot. But every female role gets that treatment. Go google Powergirls expanding chest if you wanna see what I mean.
As far as Lura Croft goes, I don't care what they try and do with her in a reboot, she is always goingt o be known as the chick with the
G cup chest in the too small sweater.
To me the image of a woman as a walking sex object with no personality is a lot more harmful than something like Princess Peach, who is obviously onlys till around because of the nostalgia and her character being so iconic in the mario franchise.
Post by
Skreeran
I'm not going to fault a talented or hard-working writer for coming up with a male protagonist, and I'm surely not going to tell him to rewrite it with a lead woman.
I do think discovering the societal and psychological reasons that the sexual bias exists is a worthy endeavor, and if there are changes that can be made to raise a new generation of artists, designers, and writers to have more ideas for good media that feature women, I'm all for that too.Sure, I can accept that. I don't like executive mandated rewrites, especially for the sake of seeming more politically correct. I just wish more people would write strong females leads from the start. There's nothing wrong with a male lead, and having a male lead doesn't mean unoriginality (Firefly, for example, had a male lead--Mal--but the strong female character played a prominent role, and it was overall a really good series), I just think that writing as a whole would do well to not simply
default
to a male.
Also, a lot of the "badass" popular female characters, in almost all forms of media, are usually quite masculine in their actions. Characters like Lightning, or Samus, or even Lara Croft, are usually acting like male action heroes, or are very tomboyish, for example. Femininity is often viewed as a weakness, or even something to dislike. I think the whole idea of girls having to take on masculine characteristics to be likable is just utter crap and should be done away with entirely. Those girl characters who aren't very masculine are often relegated to being love interests, especially in gaming. I get the reasons why, but they only explain so much.And I can understand this as well, though I'm not sure I agree totally. I don't think being strong and willful is inherently masculine. Samus may kill bad guys and shoot phallic missiles, but her wearing a suit of armor and fighting doesn't make her more masculine and less feminine, I think. Sure, she's not wearing a dress or nurturing kids, but she doesn't have a shaved head and huge muscles either. I think the act of engaging in physical conflict is not male-exclusive.
Post by
asakawa
http://www.reddit.com/r/comicbooks/comments/134f6k/i_am_kelly_sue_deconnick_writer_of_ghost_captain/c7184q1?context=1
This is a reddit post I came across recently in which Kelly Sue DeConnick gave an insightful answer to the question of female protagonists in comic books. I'm fairly sure that pretty much every point also applies to games.
I generally think like Jubilee in that, individually, games are cool but I think that people footing the bill for game development want to be sure that they'll make money and are going to follow well-trodden, old paths and that's entirely understandable. But those paths say that a book with a child protagonist is a children's book, that boys want to play as Mario not Princess Peach and that If your game has a female hero then it should probably be a twist ending. Game development is changing though, at first it just polarised but the indie market really seems to be gaining strength and the ability to gamble will surely improve things.
Personally I like strong female characters in films (Ripley etc.) and books so I very often take the opportunity to play a female character in a game (FemShep, female MMO charcaters and so on). So I also hope that game developers more often take the opportunity to give that choice to the players.
Post by
Patty
Also, a lot of the "badass" popular female characters, in almost all forms of media, are usually quite masculine in their actions. Characters like Lightning, or Samus, or even Lara Croft, are usually acting like male action heroes, or are very tomboyish, for example. Femininity is often viewed as a weakness, or even something to dislike. I think the whole idea of girls having to take on masculine characteristics to be likable is just utter crap and should be done away with entirely. Those girl characters who aren't very masculine are often relegated to being love interests, especially in gaming. I get the reasons why, but they only explain so much.And I can understand this as well, though I'm not sure I agree totally. I don't think being strong and willful is inherently masculine. Samus may kill bad guys and shoot phallic missiles, but her wearing a suit of armor and fighting doesn't make her more masculine and less feminine, I think. Sure, she's not wearing a dress or nurturing kids, but she doesn't have a shaved head and huge muscles either. I think the act of engaging in physical conflict is not male-exclusive.
That's not what I'm talking about. Their appearances are still almost always attractive, and usually in small amounts of clothing or nicely fitting armor, to act as fanservice. I know most male protags are usually attractive too, but that's more wish fulfilment. I think you can be strong and willful yet still show more feminine qualities. Samus was only revealed as a girl until the very end of Metroid, and everyone naturally assumed she was a guy; she acted that way. I want to see more Black Widows in games - characters that are strong, willful, undoubtedly badass, and still completely feminine. I want to see the magic girls not relegated to love interests because they are girly and wear a dress, and show them as badass and existing in their own right. Yuna was a pretty good example of this, I'll admit. But then the X-2 outfits happened.
To me the image of a woman as a walking sex object with no personality is a lot more harmful than something like Princess Peach, who is obviously onlys till around because of the nostalgia and her character being so iconic in the mario franchise.
I agree. But that's not really what I'm talking about. Tbh I would love a hot-pants spiderman but I think I'm in the minority on that front. ;)
Post by
Skreeran
That's not what I'm talking about. Their appearances are still almost always attractive, and usually in small amounts of clothing or nicely fitting armor, to act as fanservice. I know most male protags are usually attractive too, but that's more wish fulfilment. I think you can be strong and willful yet still show more feminine qualities. Samus was only revealed as a girl until the very end of Metroid, and everyone naturally assumed she was a guy; she acted that way. I want to see more Black Widows in games - characters that are strong, willful, undoubtedly badass, and still completely feminine. I want to see the magic girls not relegated to love interests because they are girly and wear a dress, and show them as badass and existing in their own right. Yuna was a pretty good example of this, I'll admit. But then the X-2 outfits happened.
Perhaps it's just because I'm most attached to the Metroid Primes, but Samus, as an example, was rarely, if ever used as fanservice (generally only in the sidescrollers, and only in pictures used as completion rewards). In Metroid Prime, her suit wasn't sexualized, but wasn't deliberately masculine either.
Likewise with most of those other characters I named. FemShep has feminine armor (meaning, it looks like it was made to fit a woman's body, not a man's), but it's not a plate bikini. It's thick, and practical, and she kicks ass in it. Jade from Beyond Good and Evil was also very feminine without being sexualized.
Warcraft, on the other hand, is ridiculously bad about this.
The
few
major
female characters are all depicted with huge busts and wear less clothing than the
massive
male
characters (besides
Garrosh
, I suppose :P), and just about all of them are motivated by a man (Malfurion, Arthas, and Arthas/Varian/Thrall/Garrosh, respectively).
And, of course, in a perfect world, girl characters could be sexy
and
smart and independent, or naturally tomboyish and more comfortable with "the guys." In a perfect world, all permutations of people would be well represented without becoming caricatures .
I generally think like Jubilee in that, individually, games are cool but I think that people footing the bill for game development want to be sure that they'll make money and are going to follow well-trodden, old paths and that's entirely understandable. But those paths say that a book with a child protagonist is a children's book, that boys want to play as Mario not Princess Peach and that If your game has a female hero then it should probably be a twist ending. Game development is changing though, at first it just polarised but the indie market really seems to be gaining strength and the ability to gamble will surely improve things.Of course profit is their main goal, and there is no sexist executive shooting down all the writers ideas for strong female characters, I get that. But I do thing it's worth discussing. If it's ignored, there can be no change.
Post by
asakawa
Hehe, there could very well be a few execs who do that but I think even they would go with whatever will maximise profit (or lower the chances of a loss). I agree heartily that it's worth discussing - I think that feminism is important and games are a big part of pop culture which both follows and leads societal views.
Post by
Gone
I know most male protags are usually attractive too
I was actually just thinking about this last night. I was re-watching Game of Thrones to get ready for the new season, and I was thinking about how in the books Jorah Mormont is supposed to be this really ugly, brutish,
hair-everywhere-except-his-head
type of guy, and in the show they get some suave, Sean Connery looking mother****er to play him.
I think the attractive protagonist is gender neutral. But what female protagonists deffinately suffer from more is over sexualization.
The difference being; an attractive character is just good looking on their own, a character who suffers from oversexualization finds themselves constantly having to go undercover as a gogo dancer.
Something i thought was pretty neat, if anybody played the new Starcraft yet, the whole Damsel thing is kind of reversed when Kerrigan spends the first half of the game on a mission to rescue Jim, who plays the role of Princess Peach by being captured by the villain in the first mission of course then it's re-reversed when Jim shows up at the last second to rescue her in turn
Post by
Patty
I don't think reversing the whole damsel in distress situation helps at all, though. It's still the same stupid principle (love interest as plot device), it's just that the gender is less clichéd.
Of course, ME and MP are influential games, but they remain the minority. I mean, zero suit Samus kind of shat all over Samus as a non-sexualised character, and I can't speak for ME, but the armor I've seen still definitely emphasises physical attributes (there usually tends to be a different detail on the breast of the armor than, say, the part covering your gut, from what I've seen), although it is definitely nowhere near as fetishised as outfits from a game like WoW or soul calibur. It's still a novelty to have female characters as well developed and well represented as male ones in games, overall, and a few examples won't change that.
Post by
Skreeran
Yeah, it'a weird. Starcraft and Diablo tend to be decently gender neutral. At one point in Diablo 3, I was playing as the female Wizard, and was having a conversation with Leah and Eirena, the enchantress follower.
And then there's Warcraft.
Edit: Patty,
here
's female Shepard from ME.
Male
, for comparison.
Edit #2: And yes, I know it's still a novelty. Hence why I gave a few examples of good female heroes, but noted that the majority are still male.
Post by
Gone
I mostly brought up the Starcraft thing as just something to chuckle over. I agree reversing the damsel thing isn't the way to be progressive. That's why I can't take radical feminists seriously, the kind that don't just want to abolish the patriarchy, but bring us into a matriarchy.
As far as Samus goes, the blue body suit might leave little to the imagination, but it's not
that
bad. The fact that they made her power suit fall off every other level in Other M was a problem, but a secondary one compared to how weak they made her character, and the fact that one or more of the male characters constantly had to be rescuing her from trouble.
Post by
Patty
So, apparently CNN's live reporting of the rape case in Stuebenville(?) has been absolutely appalling. They're lamenting the lost careers of rapists rather than what happened to the rape victim, from what I can gauge off people in the US' reactions to the reporting.
Really?
I mean, the whole case has reeked of rape culture, but for the journalism to also reflect that... it's just gross. Did anyone get a chance to see it? Or maybe has a youtube link?
Post by
Skreeran
So, apparently CNN's live reporting of the rape case in Stuebenville(?) has been absolutely appalling. They're lamenting the lost careers of rapists rather than what happened to the rape victim, from what I can gauge off people in the US' reactions to the reporting.
Really?
I mean, the whole case has reeked of rape culture, but for the journalism to also reflect that... it's just gross. Did anyone get a chance to see it? Or maybe has a youtube link?
This is the best I could find.
It's a camcorder video, unfortunately. I wasn't aware of the case myself, prior to you mentioning it.
Post by
MyTie
rape culture
I think that there isn't a "rape culture" in the US. I think that phrase is nothing more than a trend. There is a rape culture in the officer core of the US military, and in third world countries, particularly in places like South Africa, but the US doesn't have a rape culture. Period.
Post by
Skreeran
Well, it depends on your definition. There is not a forcible rape culture in the US, but in many places in the US there is still a prevailing attitude--among young people--that getting a girl drunk out of her mind and then having sex with her is a meritous thing.
Post by
MyTie
Well, it depends on your definition. There is not a forcible rape culture in the US, but in many places in the US there is still a prevailing attitude--among young people--that getting a girl drunk out of her mind and then having sex with her is a meritous thing.
Yeah, and then they go to jail, and get shamed publically, and for the rest of their lives they are a sex criminal and carry that, like a scarlet letter. All of that is just, but it just shows that there isn't a "rape culture", there are just irresponsible young people. The two aren't the same thing.
Post by
Skreeran
Well, it depends on your definition. There is not a forcible rape culture in the US, but in many places in the US there is still a prevailing attitude--among young people--that getting a girl drunk out of her mind and then having sex with her is a meritous thing.
Yeah, and then they go to jail, and get shamed publically, and for the rest of their lives they are a sex criminal and carry that, like a scarlet letter. All of that is just, but it just shows that there isn't a "rape culture", there are just irresponsible young people. The two aren't the same thing.It's illegal sure, but the concern about "rape culture" is that there is a culture of young men seeing alcohol-based rape as a victory, and then the compounding issue of a large amount of people not considering it rape. I know I personally instinctively think of rape as exclusively forcible, and it takes me stepping back and considering the facts of alcohol related sex crimes to actually get it back into my head that it's rape. It's not the same thing as forcible rape, but it is still wrong.
When I was in Basic Training, we had a mandatory sex crime awareness class, and a quick show of hands showed that less than half of the class believed that having sex with a pass-out drunk person was rape.
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