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Revisiting FoL in an ICC-geared world, a.k.a. wishful thinking
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Post by
299264
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
I'm sure that svirve or pezz visited this in the past, but what's the minimum mana required to support 1sec FoL spamming endlessly?
Post by
biogoo
If I dont spam HL 24/7 on HC, the tank dies.
Well, thats a bit over-rated, but quite close.
FoL build spamming HLs on Valithria would see some funny numbers though:)
Most of the easier bosses should be easily doable without any HL cast (marrowgar), but one of the best things the HL is good for is the glyph splash, which is incredibly good with the zone buff increasing. First you cast a big boosted heal, then take 10% of it,
then boost it again
and send it to five melees nearby (example in my signature:)).
And HL builds can spam the spell all the time.
Post by
Squishalot
Yes, but the theory goes, FoL builds will sacrifice intellect for SP and haste, giving you the ability to get those smaller heals out faster, potentially adding up to the same amount. Or at least, something that's not too far behind the same amount.
Given SP scaling relative to casting time, FoL will overtake HL at some ungodly high SP level for single target HPS. It's worth considering whether we've reached that level yet.
Post by
biogoo
You cant get in more than 1 heal in a second. But every HL caster will have HL on 1,3 sec. You would need a LOT of SP to get FoL to over 10k non-crit to make up for that...
Given SP scaling relative to casting time, FoL will overtake HL at some ungodly high SP level for single target HPS. It's worth considering whether we've reached that level yet.
All SP you can have that HL caster doesnt is in gems, enchants and possibly trinkets. Thats ALL. And HL takes 2,5/1,5 * more from a point of SP anyway, so the more SP you have on gear, the stronger is HL against FoL.
Post by
pezz
tl;dr: Is it okay
now
?
Just musing/rambling here. I know that numerically, stacking int and spamming HL is the way to go. That being the case, why are so many pieces of casting loot in ICC loaded with crit and mp5, and our libram yet again focused on FoL?
Looking at the gear that's available and the gem bonuses, I wonder sometimes if I might -
just might
- be able to stack spellpower and maybe haste or crit to the point that I could get away with a mostly FoL healing model..
You're sort of assuming Blizzard knows what they're doing it when it comes to itemization. It's a different perception of the same situation, but most of us are sticking with our i200 libram, and I personally have no plate that isn't tier gear.
I'm sure that svirve or pezz visited this in the past, but what's the minimum mana required to support 1sec FoL spamming endlessly?
Probably not very much, unless you literally do mean spamming. Throw in judging on cooldown (which you can probably afford to do if FoL is good enough) and the requirements outside of SoW/Replenishment, etc., are probably very low.
Given SP scaling relative to casting time, FoL will overtake HL at some ungodly high SP level for single target HPS. It's worth considering whether we've reached that level yet.
How do you figure? FoL gets a 100% coefficient, and HL gets a 166% coefficient. The cast time is only about .2 seconds different if you're just
barely
haste soft-capped, and it's pretty easy to go over that. Spell casting speed can't make that much of a difference. Not to mention that if we're talking about truly
ridiculous
spellpower, you'd probably have to specifically gear to
not
bring HL down to something less than a tenth of a second slower than FoL.
On topic: I'm gemmed almost all int, and a lot of the time on normal modes FoL is responsible for more of my healing than HL (why are we three-healing again?). It's already being done with the int-focused gearing in easier stuff. I fail to see the benefit of a costly regemming so I can do what I'm already essentially doing very slightly better, and so I can have mana troubles should my guild ever figure out how to get past 6/12. (8/12 in pugs, 6/12 in guild...)
I guess my point is, if you want to FoL spam in normal modes, you can do that with the same gear set-up you use to chain cast HL in hard modes now. Why have two different sets of gems/glyphs/enchants when one set can do what the other one is doing as well?
Post by
svirve
Ignoring HL in favor of FoL cripples your throughput to about 1/3. Probably 4/9 if you keep HS on CD constantly.
In some normal mode encounter it's quite possible, not gear check encounters though, or any healing intense encounter.
Pretty much you'll be carried in encounters like marrowgar, saurfang, fester, rot, putri P3, council (2 tanks), valithria and i'm not sure about sindragosa/LK haven't healed that yet but I'm guessing most probably not.
I'm sure that svirve or pezz visited this in the past, but what's the minimum mana required to support 1sec FoL spamming endlessly?
1.5k
and I'm guessing you mean Mp5 not mana.
Yes, but the theory goes, FoL builds will sacrifice intellect for SP and haste, giving you the ability to get those smaller heals out faster, potentially adding up to the same amount. Or at least, something that's not too far behind the same amount.
Given SP scaling relative to casting time, FoL will overtake HL at some ungodly high SP level for single target HPS. It's worth considering whether we've reached that level yet.
FoL builds sacrifice INT for SP and haste, a HL paladin will gear optimally for haste/MP5. A FoL paladin will gear optimally for haste/crit. So no loss in haste.
The difference in SP will be from gems, as presented
here
that's not a big difference.
At haste soft cap you will get 25% more FoLs than HL in a given time.
HL has a 66% higher SP coefficient than FoL.
At any level of ungodly gear, it's not possible for FoL to overtake HL in HPS, not even remotely.
And if you go over haste soft cap which isn't hard it becomes even more impossible for FoL to overtake HL since you still can only cast 1 spell per second.
Edit:
Example:
With 1 million SP
HL HPS: 14 825 339
FoL HPS: 1 971 739
That's 1/8 compared to the 1/3 that you get with average gear at the moment.
The gap just gets bigger.
Post by
299264
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
svirve
So the question then is: with enchants, libram, and gems alone, how much can I
improve
FoL, i.e. how noticible will the difference be?
I'd say you're trading ~1500 healed on FoL, for 4k mana, a 113 mana reduction cost on HL and ~100 mp5.
Post by
299264
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
Hm, my bad, I thought the HL coefficient was lower than that. Does Infusion of Light stack yet? ;p
Post by
skribs
Realistically you're trading ~18 gems (depending on number of tier pieces, professions, etc) from Int to SP in pure int stacking, and I even go so far as to trade 93 SP on enchants for 46 Int (weapon+bracers). Factoring in 2 trinkets that give 358 SP (179x2, IIRC, correct me if I'm wrong on that one) vs. the two easy-to-get int trinkets giving 212 int, and the loss of 125 int on flasks for a gain of 65 int on flasks, here's what you're looking at:
990 extra SP in FoL gear, 683 Int in HL gear. That 683 Int becomes 826 after talents and kings, while the 990 SP stays at 990 SP. That's a 12,390 difference in mana at a cost of 1175 on FoL (factoring in Healing Light and Tree of Life Aura). Considering that you get an extra 495.6 mana back for EVERY seal of wisdom proc, and 3097.5 mana back for EVERY use of Divine Plea, both numbers just from the extra mana (not total mana pool) and yea...I'd say it's worth it. Without int, you wouldn't be able to sustain HL spam, so your choice is SP+FoL or Int+HL, and the later has more throughput.
There are times I find myself low on mana, even with a 41k buffed mana pool, and use of both libram of renewal and spark of hope for 155 off the base mana cost of HL (plus Seal of Wisdom glyphed for another 5%). As you learn the fights, you'll learn when to divine plea, when to run in and melee, and when to pop other cooldowns to mitigate the damage to your mana pool. Do NOT use CDs with Divine Plea (unless you know you won't need it later), as you cut the effect of the CD in half.
As to whether you should be an FoL buffer or an HL spammer...HL is fast enough it's almost a buffer in and of itself. The extra throughput is phenomenal though. I've seen people jump from 1.9k effective to 4.3k effective HPS by regemming and switching from FoL to HL builds, so yes - it works.
Part of the reason, I think, is because of Light's Grace. Without that, at the haste cap, HL would have a 1.67s cast; making SP an equal gain for both and giving HL and FoL. HL in that case would also be slow enough that it would be easy for others to snipe your heal, resulting in much greater overheals. Glyph of Holy Light further pushes the favor toward HL (5% crit vs. 40% healing in an AoE).
I am considering building an SP set for Valithria, though. Of course, it doesn't matter - we get her first try every week anyway. I'll also be getting the SP trinkets to buff my wow-heroes score, but using the int trinkets during combat.
Post by
biogoo
There are times I find myself low on mana, even with a 41k buffed mana pool, and use of both libram of renewal and
spark of hope
for 155 off the base mana cost of HL
Skribs, please, I know you think that trinket is good, but its not, and it would be realy great if you could stop mentioning it in a post that looks generaly inteligent, because it could confuse players.
Thank you.
Post by
skribs
Considering that it gives 150 MP/5 during
pure
HL spam (at 1.33 sec cast and saving 39.9 mana after GoSoW per cast, that's 150 MP/5), and 199.5 MP/5 during FoL spam and/or with instant casts, I consider it good. You cannot dispute the fact that during any sort of spam (and my GCD is constantly ticking, except during the last 0.33 seconds of an HL cast), it's minimum is 150 MP/5, more than that of heroic solace. If I'm playing right, I can even get casts in during movement (there's almost always time to judge, HS, cleanse, insant FoL if Infusion procced, holy wrath/hammer, etc) so unless it's a particularly movement heavy fight I don't bother. I also don't use this trinket on Valithria, for reason #2 below.
I am still awaiting a good argument against using Spark of Hope. Yeah, meteorite crystal probably provides the same regen, but those two are both amazing. Thus far, I've seen these arguments:
It has spirit.
I don't care if it has spirit, I'm only looking at the mana regen, and the 39.9 mana off of every cast when I average 4.4 casts every 5 seconds is amazing (that averages out to 175.56 mp/5).
It has no throughput.
More throughput will be overhealing in most situations. Usually people are down 9k health and my HL is healing for 13k. So getting an extra 300 on my HL would add 300 overhealing. Even if the tank takes a huge burst, and requires 2 HL's to be topped off (amongst casts from other healers), I'm likely to just add 600 overhealing to the second heal by making both heals stronger.
Even then, holy pallies gem, enchant, and even flask for pure intellect. And, despite the fact that I have a 41k mana pool raid buffed, I still sometimes get low when I really need to bring the power heals for an extended period of time.
You don't spend enough time casting to make it worth it.
I don't see where anyone could get this idea in ICC, considering the standard is to constantly be casting quick-cast heals (with the exception of the shaman, who uses a smart cast that will pick up most of what gets sniped with splash, but they gear for haste anyway). If I am not casting a heal, I am dispelling, judging, or moving - and even then I try to time my movement at a point when my CDs are available to use for instants (holy shock, judge, cleanse, instant FoL, hammer/refresh bacon/refresh SS, pause, holy shock, and I only lost 1 cast while running for 7 seconds). If no healing is needed, I'm dispelling, casting FoLs just to keep the tank topped off, or spamming HL because there's high bursts in the phase (think Fester 3-stacks), so yes, I am constantly casting.
It's not good.
Horrible argument, it doesn't say anything. If someone is confused, and sees me list my reasons and numbers, and then you say "It's not good," who's going to look more correct? Granted, some people have lots of numbers and bad math, but I'm fairly certain I'm not one of them. At worst Spark of Hope provides more regen than heroic solace without contributing to inflate my overheals. At best, it provides more regen than even Meteorite Crystal. Come up with some logic against it, or please don't bash me. If you're going to disagree with me, please do so intelligently or silently, but don't just say "you're wrong" without proof of what's right. Then you turn the debate in search of truth into an argument in search of winning.
There are several high quality trinkets. For pure regen, meteorite crystal + spark of hope is probably the best. For a good balance, dual solace is very powerful, but I don't think a class where most people are more focused on mana pool than spell power cares too much about SP. For pure throughput, you're probably best with Althor's Abacus + one of (Illustration or purified lunar dust). As a Paladin, options 1 or 2 (high regen or high balance) are your best bet, and I prefer option 1. The scale tips the other way for the other classes, depending on how much regen they have on their gear they may prefer option 3, or may still need option 2.
My philosophy on my paladin revolves around two simple principles:
Maximize the time spent casting HL. As stated above, HL is our best source of throughput, so anything I can do keep casting HL liberally, even to the end of the fight, increases my healing effectiveness.
Minimize time spent inside the Divine Plea buff/debuff conundrum. I would rather not rely on a CD which nerfs my healing by 50% for a quarter of the fight. That would be like purposefully letting your warrior get MC'd in an arena so he can MS the team. I would rather use it at smart points than use it on cooldown.
As a result, I want to focus entirely on regen, so I can get the extra HLs in without MSing myself. So staying away from DP, even Meteorite Crystal falls down to between the level of the solace and heroic solace in terms of regen. Until I stop running OOM on harder fights, I will consider Spark of Hope to be one of my best friends. You can call me wrong all you want, but unless I see new proof, I'm not inclined to believe you.
So please, unless you have one of the following, just agree to disagree:
Proof that you spend enough time moving to where you run out of instant casts for it to be worth it to get the cost-reduction regen. On a few fights it may not be optimal, but I haven't seen nearly this much movement.
Proof that ~150 SP isn't likely to simply add to overhealing 90% of the time. It will minimally affect GoHL and I listed the other effects above.
Proof that it's regen is not as high as my math says, although I think that would be hard to prove outside of the first point in this list.
Another argument I have not yet thought of or seen. There could be one, but I've racked my brain and can't find it.
Note that when I say "agree to disagree" this means, instead of "You're wrong and don't post that," you can say things like "That's your opinion, but here's what I think." Because unless you can show me where I'm wrong (and like I said above, don't use a cliche argument because I've already thoguht of it), I cannot conclude that I am wrong.
Post by
biogoo
The thing is, it gives the calculated mp5 only if you cast spells like a madman. That way you waste a lot of mana. You like it? Ok, do so, but dont spread the word like you were some kind of prophet.
Also, good paladin will know when he can use DP, when DP+wings and when DP+DI, or when he should save one of those CDs for burst phases.
Post by
skribs
The thing is, it gives the calculated mp5 only if you cast spells like a madman. That way you waste a lot of mana. You like it? Ok, do so, but dont spread the word like you were some kind of prophet.
In WotLK raiding, is there any reason to
not
be casting spells like a madman? Disc blanket the raid with PW:S. Holy priests will blanket renew and cast ProM on CD, using CoH during bursts or on CD depending on the fight. Druids use the 5x1 and constantly have 15 rejuvs ticking. Resto shamans spam CH or LHW nearly the whole fight. So why is it that paladins are different?
Even DPS and tanks (unless they're regenerating energy or all abilities on CD) will be spamming. So, yes, I like it. Why do I like it? Because it works. So yes, I'll keep spreading the word, because I've seen it work. What I want to know is, why don't you cast spells like a madman?
Do you also go up to your elemental shamans and say "you cast lightning bolt like a madman. Just flame shock, lava burst, and wait for the CD to come up or the debuff to fall off before casting again." No, you want them doing max DPS, so you have them use lightning bolt as filler, and the faster they can get the next one casting the more DPS they do. The same with healing - wotlk healing is all about maximizing throughput without going oom. Maximizing throughput for healers is the same as for DPS - constant casting. In Cataclysm this will likely change, but in WotLK I don't see a reason to not cast.
Also, good paladin will know when he can use DP, when DP+wings and when DP+DI, or when he should save one of those CDs for burst phases.
True, but you're still finding spots when you can use DP. If you can minimize your reliance on it, that would increase your potential during times you would have otherwise used it. Sometimes you cast it, and then a random event hits (e.g. another healer D/Ced) so you have to cancel it until he comes back, making you need it more next time it's up. Sometimes the D/C is even worse, and happens when someone is under the effect of a fight mechanic, so even though it would have been a lull it becomes a lot of damage. You can either cancel DP and miss the mana, or use the DP and miss the heals.
I'm not saying a good paladin will not be able to make it work, I am saying that I go in ahead of time thinking of ways to lessen my reliance on DP to begin with, to give me more flexibility inside the raid. The argument for not trying to augment time in DP is like telling your tank not to worry about mitigating incoming damage or adding effective health because he's got CDs, and a good tank knows how to use them.
Post by
biogoo
What I want to know is, why don't you cast spells like a madman?
Because landing Holy Light on a topped tank does no good.
Post by
skribs
Because landing Holy Light on a topped tank does no good.
You obviously didn't read my post. I don't feel like typing it again, so I'll quote the relevant part.
If I am not casting a heal, I am dispelling, judging, or moving
- and even then I try to time my movement at a point when my CDs are available to use for instants (holy shock, judge, cleanse, instant FoL, hammer/refresh bacon/refresh SS, pause, holy shock, and I only lost 1 cast while running for 7 seconds).
If no healing is needed, I'm dispelling, casting FoLs just to keep the tank topped off, or spamming HL because there's high bursts in the phase (think Fester 3-stacks), so yes, I am constantly casting.
So, I have several options besides simply "Keep spamming HL when nobody is taking damage." I can:
Refresh judgment, Sacred Shield, or Beacon of Light
Dispel a debuff or cast a CD that's on the GCD
Cast an FoL because someone may take damage or the tank may take a hit (sort of like a HoT).
Cast HL if the tank is at full but I expect a large hit (on festergut at 3 stacks, if you heal after the tank takes a hit, he's likely dead before he's topped off again).
As you can see, there are several options there. 3 of which aren't even a heal, but are casts (and have mana costs which are affected by the trinket). One of which is HL spam on a full health tank which DOES good when he takes a hit. The benefit is less once your tanks get geared, but there are times it is needed. The fourth option serves the same function as blanket rejuv or renew (which other classes use to maximize HPS) and doesn't spend enough mana to be a problem, but the trinket makes it even less of a problem.
Also, some fights you just don't stop chain-casting because there is constantly damage to heal. Fester, blood queen, sindragosa (unless you have the instability) all come to mind real quick.
So my question is - did you only read parts of my post and then argue with what you read? Or did you exxagerate my post and then ridicule the result?
I know I said I like to maximize the time spent casting HL, but there are times I use other abilities. Using FoL during lulls keeps the heals coming and the tank topped off, while saving mana so I can lay down HLs when needed. This is actually maximizing time spent casting HL when it is needed, despite the initial appearance it may have of spending less time casting it. There are several fights where things get screwed up half way through, and I switch from just FoL to spamming HL the rest of the fight - during these situations, I've always been glad I kept people topped off with FoL early on, and that I had the mana left to HL nonstop when it was needed.
Several examples of this are ooze stacking on rotface, healer missing spores and dying on fester, pre-nerf saurfang stacking 5+ marks before the enrage, etc.
Unless I am moving, or just came back from a brez and need to melee to refill my mana, I am always casting. During lulls, I use a lot of FoL. It's not wasted because of the low mana cost, but it helps a lot in keeping the tank and raid topped off so I don't need to HL quite so often. The results - I'm still doing a fair amount of healing during lulls, and then I have near full mana when I need to bring the HLs.
WotLK is not about reactive healing, but preemptive healing. Spam heals before people take hits so your cast is already partway through when he takes a hit (anecdote: switching from HW spam to LHW spam on our first attempts on Patchwerk in 3.0 helped a lot, because even though HW is more theoretical HPS, LHW would hit more often between melee swings, allowing me to keep him up). So yes, I am confident that casting and/or moving 100% of the time is the best method to healing.
Post by
slasher0161
990 extra SP in FoL gear, 683 Int in HL gear. That 683 Int becomes 826 after talents and kings, while the 990 SP stays at 990 SP. That's a 12,390 difference in mana at a cost of 1175 on FoL (factoring in Healing Light and Tree of Life Aura).
Actually figured it would need pointing out or further clarifying in your post, but most of us cool paladins are spec'd into
Holy Guidance
therefore by my math, 826*.2 = 165.2 therefore the actual difference in SP is only 990-165 = 825
I shall not delve into the spark discussion, however I can see the pros and cons to it but I do think your slightly overvaluing it.
Post by
skribs
Good point on the SP, slasher. Although you have to figure levelling, prot, and ret paladins probably don't have that (I know you what you meant I'm just being difficult).
I'm not arguing that spark is the best for everyone. I'm arguing that it's not bad. Like I said, you can go for pure regen trinkets or a balance of regen and SP. You'll get more total out of it by using the balance, but my approach is pure regen for the sake of more HLs when I need them.
Some pallies even say past 35k mana raid buffed switch to SP. I disagree, but I see their logic. However, I don't see how my method of going for regen can be seen as 100% bad, when it is still helping.
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