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Need DK Tank Advice
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Post by
Sardon
Hi, I'd like to think I'm a pretty well geared Heroic Tank, but I seem to be suffering a lot when tanking in certain instances(especially ICC 5-mans) in the sense that my healers can't seem to keep me up.
Whenever I asked the tanks in my guild(both pallies) they said it sounds like my healers just sucked, but can I ALWAYS believe that every healer I get sucks? Or is it a fault with me?
I'm running the typical Blood Tanking spec, not missing any core talents. I have absolutely no aggro issues at all except during the tunnel in HPoS and when a DPS is doing 8k Single Target DPS.
I can't get the link for my armory atm since I logged off in DPS gear and it won't update with my tank set, but here's my stats.
Health: 38,131
Armor: 25,821
Dodge: 24.00%
Parry: 20.55%
Defense: 530 (+11 from IT Sigil)
A good example is in Heroic HoR on the first few pulls, not even during the heavy stuff, I'd constantly see myself at 50% or less health, or getting the in-game low health warning every few seconds.
Another example was today, I had a Disc Priest healing me in HPoS and when we got to the tunnel he cast Power Word: Shield on me and I charged in, by the time I got to the mid-way point I was low on health with him trailing behind me, and I dropped not long after that. The next time we did the same except I popped Frostbound Fortitude, and after that I still had to pop Vampiric Blood.
The second example seems like the healer's fault, but the first sounds more like mine. I'd just like some feedback. According to WoW Heroes I should be starting on ICC10, so how am I having problems with heroics?
Thank you in advance, will get a Armory when I can.
Edit: Figures, as soon as I post it, Wow-heroes loads my tank set. lol
http://wow-heroes.com/index.php?zone=us&server=Mok%27Nathal&name=Sharys
Just use it to see my gear, I typed my stats down from what I normally use, I believe WoWheroes is missing Frost Presence, my HP Flask(Alch/Herb so I always have it on), and Horn of Winter.
Post by
Lorkin
Heroic ICC 5 mans are tougher than the old heroics, so you'll generally take more damage. There are a lot more spell casters and generally the mobs do more damage. You cite H HoR, which is the toughest Heroic atm so you can't compare that to say the other Heroics and expect the same results. There's a reason these Heroics drop much better loot.
Health: 38,131
Armor: 25,821
Dodge: 24.00%
Parry: 20.55%
Defense: 530 (+11 from IT Sigil)
The stats you provide seem to be off. Wow Heroes and wowarmory put you at 34k health. While this should be ok for heroics, I wouldn't say you are a "pretty well geared Heroic Tank" in any means. You should be able to tank the non Heroic ToC and ICC 5 mans easily, but the new ones might give you a bit of trouble.
I also see that you have Naxx gear, perhaps this was a retired character you decided to pick up? I see +24 stam gems everywhere as well. If you are serious about this toon, run and farm as many heroics as you can and upgrade your gear accordingly with Emblem of Triumph
purchases
. Also spend the extra gold and get epic cuts (+30 stam).
Just keep at it and you should see vast improvements once you get better gear. Remember that DK's in general take more damage as a tank. You can also run REGULAR ToC and ICC 5 mans for
drops
as well.
Post by
Sardon
I appreciate the reply, and yes she was a retired toon. But if you read what I posted at the bottom along with my link I said it excluded my buffs, I ALWAYS run with a Flask of Stoneblood on because I am an alchemist/Herbalist.
As for the naxx items, I don't think 2 items should be bringing me down this much, my Pally is less geared than this DK and he tanks HHoR without a single problem.
As for the +24 Stam Gems, me and my friends all agree I shouldn't waste my 30 Stam gems for anything I can upgrade via heroics. For example my axe/shoulders. I plan to have the craftable chestpiece so I haven't bothered gemming that with epics either.
Post by
Lorkin
As for the naxx items, I don't think 2 items should be bringing me down this much, my Pally is less geared than this DK and he tanks HHoR without a single problem.
Wasn't saying the naxx items were bringing you down, but you are a bit undergeared. You may find that you have less issues with your Paladin because their aoe is fantastic and the entire place is undead. You also are sporting a shield vs your DK's 2 hander and probably have more health.
Paladins shine in this place, haven't ran a pug with a paladin tank that was fail at this. They take less damage from melee, and have a lot of interrupts available. Even Holy Wrath makes this place almost trivial with a paladin tank.
Dunno what to tell you about healing. DK's generally take more damage overall as a tank, esp blood ones. Also hows your aggro? I find that if the tank can't hold solid aggro and the dps are getting hit, the healer has a harder time keeping everyone up. If they are healing the group, they may not respond to healing you as fast. This to appear that they aren't healing you or that your health drops faster.
And not sure how you squeeze out 4k health from the
Flask of Stoneblood
, even with
Mixology
. That's 1300 health plus the 650 bonus from Mixology, which = 1950 which is NOT 4k.
Shouldn't this be in the DK forums?
Post by
365547
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
495743
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Post by
Sardon
My first suggestion would be enchant your cloak and chest for defense and get the dodge sigil. It should put you at 540 or very close. By dodge sigil I mean 200 rating, not the $%^&ty one that stacks 5 times.
Just to cover my bases are you making sure to put up both diseases and to pestilence those diseases to all mobs in an AoE pull. Also I note that you use glyph of disease. Are you remembering to Icy touch to keep your sigil procced?
Secondly, You have imp death strike and glyph of Death strike. Are you actually using death strike on a diseased mob? I'm not sure about you but my death strikes regularly heal for something like 6k+.
Do you use your Rune Tap when it won't overheal to help the healer? or do you overheal with it or not use it at all?
I do use DS in my Single Target rotation unless I'm having trouble holding against a overgeared DPS who's trigger happy in which case I spam IT every cooldown for it's burst threat.
And I use Rune Tap whenever I have a Blood Rune to spare and am below 80% health.
Post by
219211
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Kelborn
First of all, Frost Presence stam buff does not show up on armory or Wow-Heroes. My DK is 42k unbuffed, but on the armory he's at 38k.
Because DKs do not have a block or absorb mechanic, you should Death Strike whenever you take a large spike hit. DKs take more damage than other classes; this is a given. Healers need to realize this and plan for it. If they don't, then that's their fault and not yours.
Any piece of gear iLvl 232+ you should invest epic gems in. Not too hard to get if you can farm the badges/honor and find someone to cut them. As a tank, you want all the health you can get. Stamina from gems are buffed from two sources, Frost Presence and Veteran of the Third War. A dps could get away with rare gems, and healers too, but as a tank maxing yourself out will help immensely in the long run.
Your trinkets need a major upgrade. Besides the stamina, they do nothing.
The Black Heart
and
Corroded Skeleton Key
are a very, very nice combo to have before ICC loot. Even then, you'd only be replacing The Black Heart. Even though it's less stamina than your Brewfest trinkets, the armor proc from The Black Heart makes it worth it. I mean really, is that beer throwing wench going to help you tank?
Post by
219211
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Post by
41852
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Post by
Doring
I swear up and down that it's not your gear.
Yes it is since Wow-heroes shows the effects of Stoneskin Gargoyle, it most definatly is the gear. To start with, you must get to 535 defense to step foot into a heroic. This alone will shoot the damage you take through the roof and is likely your single biggest problem by taking damage. You better be 540 to get into a raid and if I was in a raid with you, I would insist on it. It really IS that important.
Second, stop being cheap about enchants, if you need, go farm normal instances for greens to have DE to get mats. Your professions should be making you a lot of money so get good gems and enchants.
Third, get rid of all the PvP gear and enchants. I mean it, it is wasted itemization that is doing you next to no good at all. You have top notch shoulders with a crappy enchant, that tells people that you are too lazy to get the Hodir rep or too cheap to buy Relics of Ulduar. Since you only have to do it once, what is the big deal? Buy the tanking neck with emblems, it is 19 I think so farm some heroics. Get the boot enchant with movement increase, you will be glad that you did when moving around a lot.
Speaking of professions, yours are fine for making money, they don't do stink for you in tanking. If you want to keep them, fine, just know you can't skimp anywhere else.
You are adequately geared for the ICC Heroics and decently geared for the rest. I did ok in H HoR and felt I needed more stamina and avoidance. I didn't go below 50% but once or twice tanking though it was dang hectic and I was all over my cooldowns. This is me BTW
Sakiri
so you know I am not just blowing smoke out my orifice.
Doring/Sakiri
Post by
Lorkin
To start with, you must get to 535 defense to step foot into a heroic. This alone will shoot the damage you take through the roof and is likely your single biggest problem by taking damage. You better be 540 to get into a raid and if I was in a raid with you, I would insist on it. It really IS that important.
He's not at 535 defense but he IS crit immune. You only need 5.4% reduction to be crit in Heroics or 535 defense. His extra resilience makes him crit immune, so he's ok there.
Third, get rid of all the PvP gear and enchants. I mean it, it is wasted itemization that is doing you next to no good at all. You have top notch shoulders with a crappy enchant, that tells people that you are too lazy to get the Hodir rep or too cheap to buy Relics of Ulduar.
The PvP shoulder enchant is actually the best EH enchant out there. The Sons of Hodir enchant is crap for ICC, as dodge is diminished and the majority of tanks have ample defense rating. Most raid tanks go for the extra Stam via the PvP shoulder enchants.
Post by
Doring
While the math is fine, the VAST majority of people don't know it and grief is coming because of it. Life sucks, the gear score addon sucks and idiots suck, deal with it and get the number. He isn't going into ICC with that setup with nearly anyone either, enchant or no enchant so that argument is moot as well. Yes, there are some guilds and so on that are doing it or making strides in doing it in iLevel 200 blues, most people aren't going to be that good in their dreams. Resilience does not add to dodge and parry, defense does. Blue level gems and lacking other enchants will keep him out of most any other raid as well. Arguing technical exactness is great for engineers, lawyers and theorycrafting, common folks won't let you raid without plain numbers.
Once you get to ICC level gear, gems and enchants then you can have the shoulder enchant and so on and people won't say a word because you will be Def capped without the Hodir one and I likely imagine that all those lovely ICC raid tanks out there that you talk about are indeed, defense capped at 540+ in raid configuration.
Post by
41852
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Lorkin
Once you get to ICC level gear, gems and enchants then you can have the shoulder enchant and so on and people won't say a word because you will be Def capped without the Hodir one and I likely imagine that all those lovely ICC raid tanks out there that you talk about are indeed, defense capped at 540+ in raid configuration.
I've tanked ICC 25 under 540 defense. Haven't had any issues with it, or anyone say anything. ICC is all about health and armor, not too much about avoidance.
While the math is fine, the VAST majority of people don't know it and grief is coming because of it. Life sucks, the gear score addon sucks and idiots suck, deal with it and get the number.
The vast majority of people don't know about defense either, they generally just take a look at the tank's health pool.
Post by
365547
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Post by
524425
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Post by
Lorkin
Because getting hit by bosses for double damage is a good thing? Unless you factor in the pvp enchant and you were around 437.
Naw, crit immune. 537 defense + the resilience from the pvp shoulder enchants. Add them up and you're sitting pretty at -5.6% crit chance, crit immune.
My point is that you can still tank ICC 25 under 540 defense.
Post by
Kelborn
To extrapolate on what Lorkin said, ICC is about being able to reduce the damage of incoming attacks that you
will
take. Blizzard felt that tanks were getting too much avoidance, aka not taking any damage at all. So with the dodge chance nerfing debuff in ICC, gearing becomes a game of effective health and armor. Boss damage is reduced, however it occurs more frequently due to the lack of avoidance. A single hit from an ICC 10 boss is about that of an Ulduar 10 boss. Only you get hit more often.
While maintaining crit immunity is the most important thing, that does not mean you must have 540 defense. If the resil gets you there that's fine. Because that enchant adds more effective health, which is what ICC is all about. A lot of the fights also deal magic damage, and you can't dodge / parry that.
Edit 1: spelling
Edit 2: That being said, my DK is sitting comfortably at ~570 defense from gear. No gems or enchants. I've never had a problem with keeping crit immunity, even when first gearing up.
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