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10.2.5
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10.2.6
Various Pros and Cons of the Races
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Post by
Morec0
For Varian, it's important to remember that, even thought he is king, he has to bow to the wishes of his people on some occassions - otherwise he'll have to fight through anohter revolt, and I don't think he'd want that. I wouldn't be surprised if, shortly after the Wrathgate, there were a number of citizens calling for war on the Horde because of the event as well. That's just a thought.
Post by
Joemaster240
For Varian, it's important to remember that, even thought he is king, he has to bow to the wishes of his people on some occassions - otherwise he'll have to fight through anohter revolt, and I don't think he'd want that. I wouldn't be surprised if, shortly after the Wrathgate, there were a number of citizens calling for war on the Horde because of the event as well. That's just a thought.
I agree. I doubt Varian would do something so huge declare war if he didn't feel his people also wanted it. Every politician, be it a king a president or anything else, must bow to the wishes of those he rules.
Post by
Patty
Actually, I don't see this as a good argument for Varian, at least not anymore. Perhaps it might have been before the Wrathgate, but since, it's lost a bit of gravity.
Thrall let the wrathgate happen under his watch, that's a fact. One of his closest friends, along with ruler in his stead and a father figure to his son, was believed dead because of the Forsaken Blight. As noted before me, many of his people died because of that incident; people whom are related to the fallen would have been calling for Thrall's head on a platter!
Post by
HiVolt
Actually, I don't see this as a good argument for Varian, at least not anymore. Perhaps it might have been before the Wrathgate, but since, it's lost a bit of gravity.
Thrall let the wrathgate happen under his watch, that's a fact. One of his closest friends, along with ruler in his stead and a father figure to his son, was believed dead because of the Forsaken Blight. As noted before me, many of his people died because of that incident; people whom are related to the fallen would have been calling for Thrall's head on a platter!
I'm not arguing this. But, I am arguing the initial declaration of war as being something of passion rather than something of cold, rational thought. I'm not saying that it isn't justified, I'm talking about the context to which it happened.
To declare war against the entirety of the Horde would be something to confer with advisers, generals, and allies beforehand, rather than in the heat of the moment. In this instance, it is clearly a declaration of passion(regardless of how the voice actor makes it seem in the sequence). Clear thinking is needed from a leader, especially one as prominent as the leader of the largest Alliance faction.
He may have declared war for his people and for the Alliance(yeah, yeah, not de-facto, whatever), but at that moment, he did what he did for himself and his own revenge.
Post by
Joemaster240
Actually, I don't see this as a good argument for Varian, at least not anymore. Perhaps it might have been before the Wrathgate, but since, it's lost a bit of gravity.
Thrall let the wrathgate happen under his watch, that's a fact. One of his closest friends, along with ruler in his stead and a father figure to his son, was believed dead because of the Forsaken Blight. As noted before me, many of his people died because of that incident; people whom are related to the fallen would have been calling for Thrall's head on a platter!
Personally i agree. Thrall should have been keeping a better watch over the Forsaken, but he trusted others to do that for him and trusting others to do your job for you is an easy way for things to not get done or for things to go really really bad like they did.
Post by
HiVolt
Actually, I don't see this as a good argument for Varian, at least not anymore. Perhaps it might have been before the Wrathgate, but since, it's lost a bit of gravity.
Thrall let the wrathgate happen under his watch, that's a fact. One of his closest friends, along with ruler in his stead and a father figure to his son, was believed dead because of the Forsaken Blight. As noted before me, many of his people died because of that incident; people whom are related to the fallen would have been calling for Thrall's head on a platter!
Personally i agree. Thrall should have been keeping a better watch over the Forsaken, but he trusted others to do that for him and trusting others to do your job for you is an easy way for things to not get done or for things to go really really bad like they did.
I totally agree on the placement of responsibility among the Horde. I'm not denying that, in fact I advocate that completely. I'm only talking about the context in which the declaration of war was made.
Post by
Joemaster240
Actually, I don't see this as a good argument for Varian, at least not anymore. Perhaps it might have been before the Wrathgate, but since, it's lost a bit of gravity.
Thrall let the wrathgate happen under his watch, that's a fact. One of his closest friends, along with ruler in his stead and a father figure to his son, was believed dead because of the Forsaken Blight. As noted before me, many of his people died because of that incident; people whom are related to the fallen would have been calling for Thrall's head on a platter!
Personally i agree. Thrall should have been keeping a better watch over the Forsaken, but he trusted others to do that for him and trusting others to do your job for you is an easy way for things to not get done or for things to go really really bad like they did.
I totally agree on the placement of responsibility among the Horde. I'm not denying that, in fact I advocate that completely. I'm only talking about the context in which the declaration of war was made.
Yes varian did declare war without thinking it entirely through, but when a large amount of your people are killed by members of a larger group that you consider your enemy you don't usually see it as a radical faction within there group. You see it as a direct planned attack by the group as a whole on your people which is the first reaction your going to have to things like this.
Post by
Patty
I totally agree on the placement of responsibility among the Horde. I'm not denying that, in fact I advocate that completely. I'm only talking about the context in which the declaration of war was made.
Of which a major factor leading to that reckless decision was the failures at the Wrathgate. In Varian's eyes, that was the right choice to be made because if the Horde can't control rogue elements which lead to such a detrimental event, how can they be trusted to show restraint and control again? Varian practically viewed the Wrathgate as the Horde unofficially declaring war on the Alliance, which is wrong, but nonetheless understandable in the heat of the moment (although a leader should demonstrate more self-control and a calm composure).
Post by
HiVolt
I totally agree on the placement of responsibility among the Horde. I'm not denying that, in fact I advocate that completely. I'm only talking about the context in which the declaration of war was made.
Of which a major factor leading to that reckless decision was the failures at the Wrathgate. In Varian's eyes, that was the right choice to be made because if the Horde can't control rogue elements which lead to such a detrimental event, how can they be trusted to show restraint and control again? Varian practically viewed the Wrathgate as the Horde unofficially declaring war on the Alliance, which is wrong, but nonetheless understandable in the heat of the moment (although a leader should demonstrate more self-control and a calm composure).
Understandable, yes. But completely against the protocols that should have been taken. Declaring war is not something that should ever be done in a passionate moment. By involving himself and his people, he was indirectly involving allies as well. That could have led to needless, unprovoked casualties from the other factions among the Alliance(greater than those already incurred at the Wrathgate) who had not yet, or may not have agreed to the declaration.
I don't mean to say that it isn't justified, and I don't mean to say that it wasn't the right decision to declare war. I only refer to the context and the procedure used.
Post by
Patty
Understandable, yes. But completely against the protocols that should have been taken. Declaring war is not something that should ever be done in a passionate moment. By involving himself and his people, he was indirectly involving allies as well. That could have led to needless, unprovoked casualties from the other factions among the Alliance(greater than those already incurred at the Wrathgate) who had not yet, or may not have agreed to the declaration.
I don't mean to say that it isn't justified, and I don't mean to say that it wasn't the right decision to declare war. I only refer to the context and the procedure used.
Which I concurred with.
although a leader should demonstrate more self-control and a calm composure.
Post by
HiVolt
Understandable, yes. But completely against the protocols that should have been taken. Declaring war is not something that should ever be done in a passionate moment. By involving himself and his people, he was indirectly involving allies as well. That could have led to needless, unprovoked casualties from the other factions among the Alliance(greater than those already incurred at the Wrathgate) who had not yet, or may not have agreed to the declaration.
I don't mean to say that it isn't justified, and I don't mean to say that it wasn't the right decision to declare war. I only refer to the context and the procedure used.
Which I concurred with.
although a leader should demonstrate more self-control and a calm composure.
Lol, I know. I'm just trying to drive the nail home for any would-be onlookers for this conversation. :D
Post by
Patty
Lol, I know. I'm just trying to drive the nail home for any would-be onlookers for this conversation. :D
Ah, fair enough then.
Post by
drame
first of all i would like to say i personally think that many of the pros and cons are far to subjective to be real pros and cons, but rather just oppinions.
Having said that, the thrall / Varian part i cant help but to add that i see Varian as to blinded and easy to fool while Thrall is to naive and trusting. One is too much and one is too little?
p.s i love lore, but i may have missed the part where
the Forsaken
wants to kill all living, i mean the betrayers of the forsaken doesn't make a con, thats betrayel not a political view (or however you wanna formulate it). (Also which demons do they work with atm? Since the betrayel at the wrathgate lead to a certain demons, temporary, destruction).
To the OP i think this is a fun post that can teach people new to lore the basic idea of the races, but i do tend to dislike it when the races get pros/cons that are oppinions and not a fact. (For example Gnomes ARE bad at selfpreservation, while the night elves ARENT really beautiful in
my oppinion
)
p.s.s This is completely something that just popped into my mind xD people saying Varians hatred towards orcs are ok, well while he have had alot of problems with them, Thrall was brought up by possibly one of the worst kind of humans... So actually when ya look at Thrall AND Varian, Thrall wins on the "goodness" meter by quite a bit, and by that im not saying one leads the other better or one race is better than the other cause both have pros and cons ;)
/randomchatquit
Post by
Adamsm
Of course, the war thing wasn't helped when Garrosh and his cronies started up the Broken front....
p.s i love lore, but i may have missed the part where the Forsaken wants to kill all living, i mean the betrayers of the forsaken doesn't make a con, thats betrayel not a political view (or however you wanna formulate it). (Also which demons do they work with atm? Since the betrayel at the wrathgate lead to a certain demons, temporary, destruction).They dislike the living... that's proven all across their quest lines, from Tirisfal Glades, to Silverpine Forest, to Hillsbrad, and on Kalimdor with the apothecaries studying and observing the new effects of their poisons on the Night Elves all across Ashenvale(including driving an entire Barrow full of sleeping druids insane/killing them).
p.s.s This is completely something that just popped into my mind xD people saying Varians hatred towards orcs are ok, well while he have had alot of problems with them, Thrall was brought up by possibly one of the worst kind of humans... So actually when ya look at Thrall AND Varian, Thrall wins on the "goodness" meter by quite a bit, and by that im not saying one leads the other better or one race is better than the other cause both have pros and cons ;)Thrall may have more 'goodness', but that meter took a major swing downwards after the Wrathgate; he should have been watching the Eastern Horde a lot closer then he was.
Post by
taurenmoo812
p.s.s This is completely something that just popped into my mind xD people saying Varians hatred towards orcs are ok, well while he have had alot of problems with them, Thrall was brought up by possibly one of the worst kind of humans... So actually when ya look at Thrall AND Varian, Thrall wins on the "goodness" meter by quite a bit, and by that im not saying one leads the other better or one race is better than the other cause both have pros and cons ;)
Thrall may have more 'goodness', but that meter took a major swing downwards after the Wrathgate; he should have been watching the Eastern Horde a lot closer then he was.
Any excuse aye Adams? Although Garrosh was leader of the warsong forces in northrend your always quick to make a pointer of how its Thralls fault for not watching him (considering he sent Saurfang to watch Garrosh when he couldn't), or its Thralls fault for not paying closer attention to the forsaken for there betrayal (anymore then Varian watches the other alliance races in there actions).
Really, if the gnomes built a bomb and it blew up a large portion of the world and many died on both sides, would you be so quick to say its Varians fault for not watching the gnomes better? Or would you say the gnomes arn't his responsibility, because he only claims to be the defacto leader of the alliance when it suits him?
At least Thrall set to put it right when it happened with the forsaken. He is the better man in that sense.
Post by
Adamsm
p.s.s This is completely something that just popped into my mind xD people saying Varians hatred towards orcs are ok, well while he have had alot of problems with them, Thrall was brought up by possibly one of the worst kind of humans... So actually when ya look at Thrall AND Varian, Thrall wins on the "goodness" meter by quite a bit, and by that im not saying one leads the other better or one race is better than the other cause both have pros and cons ;)
Thrall may have more 'goodness', but that meter took a major swing downwards after the Wrathgate; he should have been watching the Eastern Horde a lot closer then he was.
Any excuse aye Adams? Although Garrosh was leader of the warsong forces in northrend your always quick to make a pointer of how its Thralls fault for not watching him (considering he sent Saurfang to watch Garrosh when he couldn't), or its Thralls fault for not paying closer attention to the forsaken for there betrayal (anymore then Varian watches the other alliance races in there actions).
Really, if the gnomes built a bomb and it blew up a large portion of the world and many died on both sides, would you be so quick to say its Varians fault for not watching the gnomes better? Or would you say the gnomes arn't his responsibility, because he only claims to be the defacto leader of the alliance when it suits him?
At least Thrall set to put it right when it happened with the forsaken. He is the better man in that sense.
Alright, I'm tired of your crap Tauren: Varian isn't suppose to be watching the other races, that's the not the point of an 'Alliance', Thrall though, is the Warchief, the one power, the over all leader of the Horde, the big cheese etc etc.... there fore, when a race of walking dead corpses joined up with his Horde, and were in fact helped in by Magtha Grimtotem, that should have set off alarm bells in his head. Yes, I know he cleaned it up... after the death of several hundred Alliance and Horde forces, and the loss of the main supporter of peace on Alliance side and the son of the greatest Warrior in the Horde.
Right, Thrall put it 'right'.... but then again, so did Varian and Jaina and the Alliance forces, taking out the insane corpse responsible for helping to create the plague in the first place, though I guess to your biased mind, that doesn't count right? Thrall would have gone and killed him after he dealt with the Dreadlord. So yeah sure, he put it right.... 4 years and several hundred deaths too late.
And hey Thrall-lover, I made a comment about Garrosh and his cronies keeping the war going, but then again, because I showed a flaw of the leader you love so much, and are threatening to quit the game over, I guess a free shot against me is allowed eh? Seriously Tauren, either grow a thicker skin and realize that Thrall has flaws, or get the hell off the board so we don't have to listen to your same crap over and over again. Like I said in another thread, I'm tired of you attacking and acting like your high mighty over those of us who like the Alliance.
Edit: Your reaching Tauren, with the Gnome comment... No one knew what was happening in the Gnome cities, not even their good allies the Dwarves; they saw there 'small trogg' problem as less a threat then the war in the North, so they didn't ask for help as they didn't want to split the forces. Also, Varian was in his depression stage when the Gnomer incident happened, which is the same reason there were no Stormwind forces helping against the threat in Lordaeron, so yeah....
Post by
Patty
p.s.s This is completely something that just popped into my mind xD people saying Varians hatred towards orcs are ok, well while he have had alot of problems with them, Thrall was brought up by possibly one of the worst kind of humans... So actually when ya look at Thrall AND Varian, Thrall wins on the "goodness" meter by quite a bit, and by that im not saying one leads the other better or one race is better than the other cause both have pros and cons ;)
Thrall may have more 'goodness', but that meter took a major swing downwards after the Wrathgate; he should have been watching the Eastern Horde a lot closer then he was.
Any excuse aye Adams? Although Garrosh was leader of the warsong forces in northrend your always quick to make a pointer of how its Thralls fault for not watching him (considering he sent Saurfang to watch Garrosh when he couldn't), or its Thralls fault for not paying closer attention to the forsaken for there betrayal (anymore then Varian watches the other alliance races in there actions).1) There was no Alliance Wrathgate incident.
2) Thrall's the leader of the Horde; he should have been keeping an eye on the forsaken long before WotLK.
3) You're right to a degree, Garrosh didn't keep an eye on the Northrend contigent of the Forsaken, but Thrall did not watch them as a whole - the Blight was developed from the centre (Sylvanas) and the coup d'etat was staged from Undercity (Varithramas). He should have known about the inhumane acts around the development of the Blight about 5 years before Wrathgate.
Really, if the gnomes built a bomb and it blew up a large portion of the world and many died on both sides, would you be so quick to say its Varians fault for not watching the gnomes better? Or would you say the gnomes arn't his responsibility, because he only claims to be the defacto leader of the alliance when it suits him?My patience is wearing thin with you, so I'll keep it brief.
1) Varian is the de facto
military
leader of the Alliance. He leads their armies, not their engineers. However, if the gnomes did drop a bomb under his watch, it would be his fault that he didn't keep a close enough eye on them.
2)
The gnomes haven't dropped a bomb on the world
, hypothetical situations hold no ground. The Wrathgate happened in lore; your speculative event has not.
At least Thrall set to put it right when it happened with the forsaken. He is the better man in that sense.Yeah, half a decade too late.
Post by
Adamsm
Alright, back on topic before this becomes another Thrall vs Varian thread...
A few pros/cons for the Gnomes; they act like the 'big brother' for the other races, always there to help and give assistance if they can. They seem to be one of the few races that won't fall under the arcane corruption for some reason(probably has to do with their outlook on life). Completely loyal to their allies, even going so far as to not ask for help during the Gnomergon Incident, as they saw the war with the Troggs as less important then the war with the Scourge in the North.
Cons.... hard to think of those heh, beyond one they share with the Dwarves; the desire to keep pushing and making things better no matter what. Not an over all racial con but Thermaplugg is a good example of what happens when a Gnome get's ambitious heh.
Post by
Patty
Gnomes; they act like the 'big brother' for the other racesParadox!
Another pro for the draenei; they are not corrupted by arcane magic's influence, like elves were.
Post by
denjerre
Note that while magic won't corrupt them easily, they'll be corrupted by technology faster than other races (because they work with it more).
Leper Gnomes are rather vicious, but there might be worse to come, because of their zealous technological activities. Who knows, it might even lead to their downfall one time.
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