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Israel, Honourable Defender or Aggressor?
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Post by
Hyperspacerebel
To some extent. They can, because they do believe it's their land. Unlike Taiwan, which is internationally recognised as a separate nation from China, to the best of my knowledge, Gaza is a semi-autonomous state, similar to Hong Kong or Macau. Although Hong Kong has its own customs, separate to China, and requires customs processing between Hong Kong and China, it would not be illegal of China to re-annex Hong Kong and prevent people from entering, whereas it would be if they attempted to do the same to Taiwan.
It's an "Occupied Palestinian Territory" according to the UN. Not an Israelian territory.
I know that's what he's saying, hence my question for clarification. But your second statement is incorrect - by definition, the American Indians were there significantly longer than the Caucasians were, so technically, the American Indians are more native than Caucasians. Or, the Asians are just as native as the Caucasians, that works too.
He
is just as native as
Bob
who lives down at the local Reservation. He has been here for 30ish years. Bob has been here for 30ish years. They were both born here. They are both natives.
Post by
Squishalot
He is just as native as Bob who lives down at the local Reservation. He has been here for 30ish years. Bob has been here for 30ish years. They were both born here. They are both natives.
Hence:
the Asians are just as native as the Caucasians, that works too.
All I'm saying is that he doesn't cop nearly as much prejudice as the non-Caucasians natives (by that definition) living in America, and as a result, he should suck up the minor crap that he gets, because a lot of others get it a lot worse than he does.
It's an "Occupied Palestinian Territory" according to the UN. Not an Israelian territory.
A bit of further research doesn't show me anything that demonstrates that Palestine is anything more than a glorified Hong Kong, in relation to Israel and China respectively.
Post by
MyTie
All I'm saying is that he doesn't cop nearly as much prejudice as the non-Caucasians natives (by that definition) living in America, and as a result, he should suck up the minor crap that he gets, because a lot of others get it a lot worse than he does.
Because someone else is poorly treated, I should allow myself to be poorly treated as well? Does this seem right to you?
Post by
Squishalot
All I'm saying is that he doesn't cop nearly as much prejudice as the non-Caucasians natives (by that definition) living in America, and as a result, he should suck up the minor crap that he gets, because a lot of others get it a lot worse than he does.
Because someone else is poorly treated, I should allow myself to be poorly treated as well? Does this seem right to you?
Define how you are being 'poorly treated', by being labelled as an 'immigrant descendent' by the PC brigade. I don't see Caucasian kids getting bullied out of playgrounds and being told to 'go back where you came from' by a significant portion of society, on the basis of the colour of their skin. I don't see Caucasian people getting ostracised 'because I don't want to associate with a possible terrorist'. No, I don't think you're 'poorly treated'.
If you want to be picky and get down to it, you are a 'native' American. You are not a 'native American'.
Post by
Adamsm
I don't see Caucasian kids getting bullied out of playgrounds and being told to 'go back where you came from' by a significant portion of society, on the basis of the colour of their skin.That's still funny to me, especially the 'All immigrants should just go home!' crowd... seeing as that would mean pretty much every white person on the North American continent would have to leave too lol.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
I don't see Caucasian kids getting bullied out of playgrounds and being told to 'go back where you came from' by a significant portion of society, on the basis of the colour of their skin.
You didn't grow up in the ghetto. (Neither did I, the Twin Cities doesn't have a ghetto, but the east side of St Paul was as close as you could get in the early 90s.)
I grew up as white trash. I had no friends in my neighborhood at all. I got into more fights than I can count. All because I was white.
It's an "Occupied Palestinian Territory" according to the UN. Not an Israelian territory.
A bit of further research doesn't show me anything that demonstrates that Palestine is anything more than a glorified Hong Kong, in relation to Israel and China respectively.
What exactly are you saying? It is Palestinian territory which is occupied (wrongfully) by Israel. I don't see a $%^&ing blockade around Hong Kong. I don't see people who are bringing aid getting killed in Hong Kong. This is nothing like Hong Kong.
Post by
Squishalot
You didn't grow up in the ghetto. (Neither did I, the Twin Cities doesn't have a ghetto, but the east side of St Paul was as close as you could get in the early 90s.)
I grew up as white trash. I had no friends in my neighborhood at all. I got into more fights than I can count. All because I was white.
That's an entirely different kind of discrimination. That one isn't hypocritical, as Adamsm points out.
What exactly are you saying? It is Palestinian territory which is occupied (wrongfully) by Israel. I don't see a $%^&ing blockade around Hong Kong. I don't see people who are bringing aid getting killed in Hong Kong. This is nothing like Hong Kong.
As far as I can tell, legally, it's regarded as a (modern) Palestinian territory due to several accords between Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organisation. Essentially, it means Israel has assigned the Palestinians control of the Gaza Strip. This would be similar to China giving the Hong Kong Government control of the Special Administrative Region (read: state) that is Hong Kong. While the majority of UN members recognise the State of Palestine as an independent nation, there is still question over the legality of its ownership of the Gaza Strip.
Anyway, we're getting away from the main point. The point is that the aid ships were entering Israeli waters (I believe that this is generally agreed, internationally, please correct me if I'm wrong), irrespective of whether they were passing through to Palestine, or otherwise. As a result, they fall under Israeli jurisdiction, and can be turned away accordingly. And if they resist arrest / deportation for entering unauthorised, then the Israelis are well within their international legal rights to take action accordingly, aid workers or otherwise.
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
They were entering Israeli waters. They may have jumped the gun a bit though.
Israel don't recognise Gaza as a separate nation. As far as Israel are concerned, Gaza may be a semi-autonomous state, but they still belong to Israel.
Post by
374287
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
I'm under the impression that the initial strategy was to warn the ships off, and if they failed, to board them and take them into custody, and subsequently deport them. The Israeli Defence Ministry have issued a statement that it only turned violent when the crew and/or passengers of the aid ships started attacking the soldiers. If the story is true (and this conclusion is very conditional on that fact), then there isn't any moral victory for the aid ships at all.
Remember, the Israelis aren't detaining 'without trial or reason'. They're detaining for 'unauthorised entry into Israeli waters', or a similar charge. There's a big difference.
Post by
MyTie
I don't see Caucasian kids getting bullied out of playgrounds and being told to 'go back where you came from' by a significant portion of society, on the basis of the colour of their skin.That's still funny to me, especially the 'All immigrants should just go home!' crowd... seeing as that would mean pretty much every white person on the North American continent would have to leave too lol.
Adamsm here provided my rebuttle for me. It's popular culture that says "You stole lands from the Natives, enslaved the Africans, because you are white", "You waged crusades because you are Christian", etc. It is acceptible to be judgemental against me, because I am white. You are right though, you "don't see it". It is acceptible, so there is nothing to see.
Edit: Oh, and Adamsm, this is my home. I'm white, and I was born here. My parents were born here. Their parents were born here. Their parents were born here... Their parents were ALSO born here. I don't know, but I'm pretty sure that THEIR PARENTS were ALSO born here. Still think I need to get on a ship and go back home?
Post by
Heckler
Ok... sarcasm aside: It is simply asinine to ignore thousands and thousands of years that the Jewish people lived on that land, and the way they were forced from it.
Oh, and Adamsm, this is my home. I'm white, and I was born here. My parents were born here. Their parents were born here. Their parents were born here... Their parents were ALSO born here. I don't know, but I'm pretty sure that THEIR PARENTS were ALSO born here. Still think I need to get on a ship and go back home?
I don't understand how these two views mesh together if you replace 'Jewish' with 'Natives' in the first quote.
Isreal still belongs to the Jewish people, but America is rightly yours and 'the thousands of years the natives lived on this land and the way they were forced from it' doesn't matter.
Your views seem radically different when you're judging others than when you're judging yourself. Very odd to me.
Post by
Squishalot
I don't see Caucasian kids getting bullied out of playgrounds and being told to 'go back where you came from' by a significant portion of society, on the basis of the colour of their skin.That's still funny to me, especially the 'All immigrants should just go home!' crowd... seeing as that would mean pretty much every white person on the North American continent would have to leave too lol.
Adamsm here provided my rebuttle for me. It's popular culture that says "You stole lands from the Natives, enslaved the Africans, because you are white", "You waged crusades because you are Christian", etc. It is acceptible to be judgemental against me, because I am white. You are right though, you "don't see it". It is acceptible, so there is nothing to see.
MyTie, though I normally respect your arguments, that's just a load of self-pitying BS. You don't have it as tough as a lot of others. Be thankful that your parents aren't from the Middle East - you'd have a lot more to wallow about. Again, if your biggest concern is about labels, I suggest that you grow a thicker skin, because many other cultural groups in America and across the world have to deal with judgements of a more brutal kind.
I'm still waiting for you to define how you've been 'poorly treated' as a result of said judgemental attitudes.
Edit: I'm heading to sleep. I'll read replies in the morning.
Post by
129077
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
374287
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
374287
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
375923
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Edit: Oh, and Adamsm, this is my home. I'm white, and I was born here. My parents were born here. Their parents were born here. Their parents were born here... Their parents were ALSO born here. I don't know, but I'm pretty sure that THEIR PARENTS were ALSO born here. Still think I need to get on a ship and go back home?
Are you part of that group that is calling for all immigrants to go home? If so... then yeah; technically, no one is a 'native' of North America, as most of the native tribes crossed over the land bridge from Asia to North America. Hell if a law like that passed, and Canada picked it up too, I would be heading off to Europe right along side you. I'm just saying, I find it very amusing when that same group calls for all Legal and Illegal immigrants to be sent home.
Post by
374287
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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