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Halls of Reflection
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Post by
Kelborn
The one thing I don't like about tanking as a DK, especially in this place, is that we have really only a few abilities to use.
Icy Touch uses 1 of our 2 Frost runes, making it have a cooldown if used twice. Plague Strike doesn't do much for threat or damage. Blood Strike is essentially useless. Death Coil as well doesn't do much of anything. Frost Strike is decent for damage and threat. Same with Scourge Strike, they're ok but not great. Heart Strike and Death Strike are very good since the former cleaves and the latter heals. Death Strike not only adds the damage threat but healing threat as well.
Essentially, we have too few abilities that when used twice have a rather long cooldown. If you could only do two Revenges as a Warrior before it had an 8 second cooldown, you'd know what it feels like to tank as a DK at times.
Druids have a small pool of tools as well, however theirs don't all have cooldowns. However you could do this on a Druid out in the open. It's called Faerie Fire (Feral). Toss that on the Mage and charge the Hunter. Or whatever other ranged there is. Then go Swipe spam whatever runs after you while you keep tossing FFF on the Mage. Unless someone else is DPSing the Mage, FFF should give a lot of threat.
The problem doing this in the open, as I said, are the DPS actually letting you gather mobs. As a Warrior you really actually have it the easiest, easier than a Paladin I would say. You could let the melee mobs (Priest, Footman, Mecenary) gather around you while you Heroic Throw the Mage, Thunder Clap and Shockwave when they get to you. Then Charge the Hunter and Shield Slam and Devastate (unless Revenge procced). Intercept the Mage if she hasn't gotten to you yet with a Consuccion Blow to stop casting, then Shield Slam. The melee mobs should be running back and you can do whatever after that.
As a DK I could not do anything with that level of control and instant threat. My threat is built up over time, and DnD is very weak for Blood. If I dropped DnD to gather the melee, gripped the Hunter, and Strangulated the Mage, I would have used all but a Frost and an Unholy rune. In the time I was gathering the ranged, chances are the dps would be going crazy on the other mobs. Which I only have about 8k threat on thanks to DnD.
Post by
138583
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Porcell
Essentially, we have too few abilities that when used twice have a rather long cooldown. If you could only do two Revenges as a Warrior before it had an 8 second cooldown, you'd know what it feels like to tank as a DK at times.
Um, Revenge is on a 5 seconds cooldown.
As a Warrior you really actually have it the easiest, easier than a Paladin I would say. You could let the melee mobs (Priest, Footman, Mecenary) gather around you while you Heroic Throw the Mage, Thunder Clap and Shockwave when they get to you. Then Charge the Hunter and Shield Slam and Devastate (unless Revenge procced). Intercept the Mage if she hasn't gotten to you yet with a Consuccion Blow to stop casting, then Shield Slam. The melee mobs should be running back and you can do whatever after that.
I don't know if warriors have it easier than a paladin, but it is pretty easy. But it's not how you describe. For the mage you either Heroic Throw to pull him in, or you Spell Reflect and ranged tank him. The hunter you can just taunt tank (or if your healer is smart he will run out of LoS for a second when he gets healing agro, thus pulling him in). Otherwise you just stand there and tank things; there's no reason to be out charging around the room. The melee mobs are the dangerous ones; if the Mage or the Hunter is plinking away on someone, it's not a big deal, but a mercenary or footman will rape your DPS.
Post by
Kelborn
The one thing I don't like about tanking as a DK, especially in this place, is that we have really only a few abilities to use.
Icy Touch uses 1 of our 2 Frost runes, making it have a cooldown if used twice. Plague Strike doesn't do much for threat or damage. Blood Strike is essentially useless. Death Coil as well doesn't do much of anything. Frost Strike is decent for damage and threat. Same with Scourge Strike, they're ok but not great. Heart Strike and Death Strike are very good since the former cleaves and the latter heals. Death Strike not only adds the damage threat but healing threat as well.
Please revert from writing anything about Death Knights skills in the future. Pretty please. I even cba exaplaining it. Just go read some stickies.
Blood strike is useless as Blood, true. But i see you are mentioning other tree strikes. Frost strike, Scourge strike. You missed Obliterate.
You obviously missed Blood boil, Rune strike and Death and Decay.
You obviously missed the points about IT and PS being crucial for Death Knights due to applying Diseases. Dots which not only do nice threat, but also buff your other abilities damage. Actually using these abilities on not diseaes targets is considered not using your full potential.
Death coil doesnt do anything? Like it absolutely doesnt make you better use your GCDs (when runes are on cd) and your gathered Runic power for free threat/damage?
I'm talking about individual skills that apply threat in high ammounts instantaneously. DKs have only two such abilities, and one was only recently introduced as such an ability. You use IT twice, you have it on an 8 second cooldown. Rune Strike you must a) be in melee b) have dodged or parried and c) have 20 RP.
Every single other threat generating ability is either weak in it's instantaneous threat or it takes a while to build up that threat. Death and Decay does not give instant threat. It generates it over time. Diseases generate it over time. Rune Strike does give a huge amount of threat, however you must dodge or parry to use it. making it useless when talking about pulling ranged into the group. I neglected to mention it because I have it macro'd to every single button I ever press while tanking, so it is always being used. However, it too has a cooldown. Your swing timer. I also did not mention Death Runes since at the start of a pull, you usually do not have them at your disposal.
The point that you're clearly missing by a long shot is that our individual skills do not net the same result as the other tank classes individual skills. It is the sum of those skills that nets the result in the long run, however they must all be used in conjunction with each other. You cannot successfully tank by using Blood Boil to pull, keep half the mobs in Death and Decay, use Icy Touch and Plague Strike on separate mobs, Heart Strike on one that has no diseases, etc.
Warriors do not have to use Thunder Clap, Heroic Strike (if they even use it lol, but it's a high threat ability), Revenge, Devastate, Shield Slam, etc on every single mob to generate threat. Each of those abilities generate high amounts of threat. They can all be used interdependently of each other. Revenge on one mob, Shield Slam on another. You still get high threat from each.
My post was talking about INSTANT threat. Plague Strike, Blood Strike, Death Coil, Heart Strike, etc have relativly low instnat threat. The threat over time from diseases, DnD, and using Obliterate, Scourge Strike and Heart Strike on diseased mobs, as well as Blood Boil is undisputed.
Here's an apporximate list of threat from each ability, as it shows in my Omen.
Rune Strike: 25k hit, 45k crit
Icy Touch: 15k
Heart Strike, Scourge Strike, Obliterate: 7-10k
Death and Decay: 3k per tick
Scourge Strike: 2k
Blood Boil: 1.5k no disease, 3k disease
Melee: idfk
My Warrior and Druid are only level 70, and I've found them relatively simple to play effectively. I have Feral Faerie Fire range tanked many times. Don't tell me it doesn't work. It keeps it off the healer at least, and I've even kept threat ahead of a good mage just using FFF.
I don't care to go onto my Paladin and record stuff, but I can tell you that threat for each of a Paladin's ability does not depend on having used other abilities, unlike Death Knights. They gain no threat increase on Hammer of the Righteous just because they've used Consecration. Avenger's Shield can just as easily pull a mob as can Exorcism and Hand of Reckoning. But Death Coil does not have the same effect of high threat as pulling with Icy Touch for DKs. And don't even tell me that you still think Death Grip is an actual taunt if you're attempting to lecture me on DK abilities.
Tanking in the open of H HoR as a DK is challenging in these regards.
Getting the ranged mobs to you while keeping threat on the melee mobs. The main concern when tanking this instance is to keep mobs off your healer and dps at all times. Trigger happy DPS don't care if you're still pulling. They see DnD go down and think it's their free ticket to faceroll. The total duration is what gives it it's high threat. DnD is not buffed
at all
by the Blood tree. Unholy DKs get spell bonus from talents, which make it stronger. Frost DKs also get a Frost / Shadow buff. DK threat does not reach its full potential until diseases are applied to all mobs. However, when initiating a pull diseases are not on every mob. You need first to apply them to one, and then spread them (unless you are HB glyphed). That takes 4.5 seconds. Using DnD and then spreading diseases leaves 5 seconds on rune cooldowns. Perfect time for Blood Tap and Blood Boil, but after that they are still on at least 3 second cooldown. But that 4.5 seconds is also enough time for a Paladin to Consecrate, Divine Storm, and Seal of Command cleave. Or a Hunter to Explosive Trap and Volley, or a Warlock and Mage to crit with their AoE. In all that time you have a measly 6k threat from DnD ticks, or less, on all mobs except your current target. Those abilities by the other classes generate threat that surpasses what you have. A Shadowy Mercenary pulled this way can stun, poison, and melee a dps to dead in seconds, especially a caster.
Clearly you are the one who should not be writing about Death Knight skills since you cannot put them into the context of specific situations. In a standard pull these days in regular heroics things die before they hit anyone anyway so what does it matter if the Paladin pulls for a second? The problem in H HoR is that this is not a normal heroic, a DPS pulling a mob can and probably will kill them, thus hindering the group. It doesn't matter what your GS is, if you have the debuff from the Hunter, standing in the Mage's Flamestrike, while getting Frostbolted, then having the Mercenary stun and Poison you will drop anyone.
This is a kill order instance that most people ignore. Who cares if the tank is stunned by the rogue and the healer can't heal the damage he can't avoid? I just wanna see big yellow numbers! That's the mentality of most people you will find in LFD. Considering this, you must value your abilities based upon which is the most useful in a certain situation. DK skills in a gathering of mobs are not ideal when the mobs are spread about. A way to compensate for the 4.5 seconds of almost no threat on anything but your current target is to drop DnD, grip a mob into it, apply diseases, and pestilence when the others reach that mob. But in a dungeon like H HoR, with mobs all around, you do not have the luxury of "walking them into a trap" so to speak.
As for your last comment (I didn't quote everything for space), I am not talking about LoS pulling in this dungeon. The discussion before you came was pulling in the open. LoS pull is incredibly easy. Run mobs through AoE, /lol.
Essentially, we have too few abilities that when used twice have a rather long cooldown. If you could only do two Revenges as a Warrior before it had an 8 second cooldown, you'd know what it feels like to tank as a DK at times.
Um, Revenge is on a 5 seconds cooldown.
As a Warrior you really actually have it the easiest, easier than a Paladin I would say. You could let the melee mobs (Priest, Footman, Mecenary) gather around you while you Heroic Throw the Mage, Thunder Clap and Shockwave when they get to you. Then Charge the Hunter and Shield Slam and Devastate (unless Revenge procced). Intercept the Mage if she hasn't gotten to you yet with a Consuccion Blow to stop casting, then Shield Slam. The melee mobs should be running back and you can do whatever after that.
I don't know if warriors have it easier than a paladin, but it is pretty easy. But it's not how you describe. For the mage you either Heroic Throw to pull him in, or you Spell Reflect and ranged tank him. The hunter you can just taunt tank (or if your healer is smart he will run out of LoS for a second when he gets healing agro, thus pulling him in). Otherwise you just stand there and tank things; there's no reason to be out charging around the room. The melee mobs are the dangerous ones; if the Mage or the Hunter is plinking away on someone, it's not a big deal, but a mercenary or footman will rape your DPS.
Let me change that from Revenge to Devastate. Two Devastates, then it has an 8 second cooldown.
I'd love to see you tank that way on your Warrior, and have someone get the +40% magic damage debuff from the Marksman stand in the Mage's flamestrike whilst getting frostbolted. I'll laugh when they die because you didn't care to get actual threat on those mobs.
Post by
368348
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rubendesmet619
she doesnt have a higher rert set its waaay lower and as far as dps i hit 5k consistently in FoS and PoS
Not in the gear you posted.
SS or it didnt happen :P
When I was in a mixture of Nax10/Nax25gear I consistently made 4k+ DPS average in heroics. Average ilv, barely 210.
This one has an average Ilv of 223. Wich equals about Ulduar25 gear. Are you suprised when sombody with full Ulduar25 gear and some Ulduar10 pieces in 3.1 made 5k? I know I wasn't, I was one of them. Hell in guildruns We often had 3 of us doing 5k+
Never had issues in HoR personaly. I specced arms for it mostly(fury/arms dual specced) and simply use my rotation on one mob at the time, mostly the rifleman first or the assasin. And if possible I use target of target on the tank so I atack his target.
Post by
Meggie
Warriors can also charge and disarm the marksmen. While disarmed the marksmen will use melee attacks and follow the tank around. I use to shockwave the closed in mobs, then drag the marksman into position while the rest is stunned.
And then there's concussion blow. Shockwave > Shield Bash > Concussion blow is enough cc to put the priest out of business.
Improved spell reflect!
I barely use devastate on trash, because warriors got so many other abilities.
Post by
138583
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Post by
481420
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Post by
612837
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Kelborn
Zakkhar, your DK is not a Blood tank. You are Unholy. Of course DnD is the free ticket to faceroll for DPS. It gains buff from Impurity and Ebon Plaguebringer. The Blood tree has no buffs to DnD or diseases at all. A Blood Tank is a Strike Tank. Rune Strike, Heart Strike, Death Strike. While diseases help, they are not the major contribution of threat like they are for Unholy.
You're still not grasping my post. If you had read the last few posts on the first page of this thread you would know that I was talking about specifically tanking Heroic Halls of Reflection in the open. I was talking about the disadvantages Death Knights, Blood specifically, has in this particular situation in my post at the top of this page.
I am not saying that I prefer this method. I am not saying that tanks shouldn't LoS, and instead do it in the open. All I am saying, that you are still not grasping, is that there are ways to do it for tanks that like a challenge, however for Death Knights it is harder than other classes. I use the LoS method all the time because it is the easiest for my spec and class. If I had a lvl 80 Warrior I might tank it in the open from time to time, because I would have the abilities to manage that particular situation.
Any tank can tank this instance LoSing to the corner. I know that. You know that. We all know that. I am not disputing that. Ok so maybe I don't know the particular math behind DK threat values, but I do know what abilities do what for my spec. I know that I need to hit everything with a Rune Strike if I want to keep aggro. Diseases and Death and Decay just don't cut it for a Blood tank. We need to use what our tree buffs - physical damage. After dropping Death and Decay and applying Diseases, I tab target. My threat on that mob is usually 6-8k. Because DnD is very, very weak for Blood. Once I have my Diseases on I use Blood Boil, then Blood Tap for another Blood Boil. However, Blood Boil is indeed Shadow damage and is only buffed by one talent in the tree. With more than three mobs it is ideal, but with less I gain more threat with Heart Strike.
My "precious Icy Touches" are only used to refresh / apply diseases and pull bosses. I have tanked before 3.3's Icy Touch spam Death Tards, and I don't need to spam IT to gain the threat I need. I only used IT as an example because it is a) ranged ability, b) high threat, c) has a cooldown unless you have Death Runes. The reason for this example, that you have failed to grasp, is that besides Rune Strike it is the only instant high threat ability a Blood DK has.
In the context of tanking Heroic Halls of Reflection out in the open, with trigger happy DPS that are ever present in the LFD, the tank needs to have threat instantly on all the mobs. Death and Decay keeps mobs off a healer as Blood, but does little else. For you it would do a lot, especially when you have Ebon Plague buffing it. But for me, it is a useful tool - not a core ability. Each tick of DnD does more damage for you, and therefore more threat. You might get 10k threat per tick, I have no idea. But I get about 2k per tick, and in that 4.5 seconds of dropping it and applying Diseases, that's a measly 8k threat. If a Ret Pally was on that mob, he could do more than that 8k threat in 4.5 seconds, especially if he outgeared me. Were I an Unholy tank I would think differently and use my skills differently.
Again, I am speaking in terms of tanking Heroic Halls of Reflection waves in the open. This is not a normal tanking situation, it is not a preferred method, nor is it an easy method. But it was what was being mentioned at the end of the first page of this thread. Also, I am not saying that you are wrong in anything you have said. In a general situation, even with the LoS pull, you are correct. But much of what you're saying doesn't apply to the specifics of tanking H HoR in the open as a Blood DK. What you're saying is correct, I don't disagree with you. But it's not that relevant to this context. You may think I'm contradicting myself and have a mental illness (I love people who resort to name calling btw, makes me laugh), but every instance has situations that are different from others. In the 3.0 Heroics, it's pretty much faceroll and always has been - with a few minor exceptions. ToC 5 man are basic tank and spanks. The ICC 5 mans however present mobs in groups with abilities that need to be handled in different a fashion than general tanking. H HoR in the open isn't a generalized tanking situation.
Keeping Death Runes up for use, using Empower Rune Weapon, and using Blood Tap are all part of DKs. I know that. However, you cannot count on having all four Death Runes active during every pull, nor can you count on the other cooldowns being up. That's why I do not mention them; because they are wildcards.
I think what he is trying to say is since Devastate doesn't have a cooldown we are able to spam it for max threat and win with one button.
That is exactly what I am trying to say. Icy Touch is the only true instant high threat we have, Rune Strike is an "on next melee" thus you need to wait for swing timer (and for it to even proc). Devastate is instant threat. You can smack everything with it and get aggro. It doesn't gain a benefit if you used Shield Slam before it. That's the problem with DKs pulling mobs from all over. Our abilities are much more effective after we had used others. The only tank class that has this type of occurrence in a similar fashion is a Druid - Mangle buffs their Maul by 30%. Maul is more effective when Mangle is on the target. Just like Heart Strike is more effective when both diseases are on the target. However, what I'm saying is, to get that max benefit DKs do it over time. Warriors and Paladins are not limited by having to use other abilties first - they can hit everything with an instant high threat ability. Shockwave doesn't do more threat just because things were hit with Thunder Clap first. Nor does having Holy Shield up affect Consecration. But for DKs, Blood Boil, an instant AoE of moderate threat, is better once diseases are on all targets, which takes time. Our abilities are connected, not independent.
Post by
481420
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Post by
Kelborn
Lol. Mountain of Text crits me for infinity. My equipped items are permanently destroyed, and I am rejected by the Spirit Healer.
Post by
475201
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Kelborn
Lol. Mountain of Text crits me for infinity. My equipped items are permanently destroyed, and I am rejected by the Spirit Healer.
do not feel rejected my friend, jesus loves you and won't reject you lol
Oh, I know Jesus' love. But it's that shawl wrapped !@#$% with wings that I'm concerned with. Now I have to corpse run. QQ.
Post by
138583
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Meggie
After the first wave you will be standing on a pile of corpses. From here you can use corpse explosion for snap aggro. It's even slightly better than Thunderclap.
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