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Draenei offical swept under the rug..
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Post by
Skreeran
Really, I would rather the next expansion have this, plus updated models for the Vanilla races than a new class or race.This...
I'd love to be able to make a Taunka, or a Mag'har, or a Dark Iron Dwarf.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
First of all: WTB playable Broken. I mean it. I was planning on going back there and grabbing a screen shot of it just to make sure I had been correct in my statement, but since you already did that, I'll admit I was mistaken.You're not the first one to not notice a difference. Hell, I grabbed that screen cap while going to investigate.
However, updating the small area from huts to more Draenei-style architecture isn't very satisfying, if that's all people have been able to find of Draenei activity in Cataclysm.Indeed.
I've always called draenei spacegoats bcause they arrived in a crashed "spaceship" and have legs/hooves similiar to goats... and some of them have horns.... like a goat.By that logic, tauren are goats.
I like my draenei Hunter. They look badass, they are big and mighty, at least, to me. Yes, there are pretty much no quests pertaining to their problem and lore, etc. in Wrath and very few in BC, yes, Blizzard dislikes them for some reason they are gonna let it like that. They don't care about draeneis, I don't care about them either. Although it's a bit painful to see such nice race go to waste because of some idiots crying about it, there's nothing to do about it. Get used to it.Troll harder, buster.
See,I think much of the original loathing against the race stems from the fact that they were supposed to be a beastly addition to the Alliance (and the Blood Elves to be a more normal looking race for the Horde).
The draenei had the basis for that,being beastly enough,interesting characters (tragic survivors of a torn land etc etc) and then someone had his balls retract back to their groin and made them look like Eredar instead of broken.And then they retconned a ^&*!load of stuff just to
make it fit
no matter what.First of all, the retcon was not of a "^&*!load of stuff." It was one throwaway line
Secondly, while some of us
would
play Broken, I doubt
anyone
would play Lost Ones.
And then they shoved all this stuff about crystal latice angels and spaceships and all that.Oh, for...Why do people keep b*tching and moaning about "spaceships" in regards to the Exodar (and it's always just the Exodar—
not
, say, the rest of Tempest Keep).
The only "spaceship" in WoW is the one in Area 52. The Exodar is comparable to the Palace of the High Ones in
ElfQuest
, or an astral carrack from
Planescape
.
I don't hate the BC lore but some stuff seem
forced
just to support the Draenei race.That's odd, seeing as the draenei were treated like a plot device for the redemption of the blood elves.
Plus you can't argue how perfect the Draenei seem morally.The auchenai don't really count since they're not a part of the race in any player interactionable (mind!@#$ word) way;they're just kill on sight by everyone,no questions asked.Whereas the Grimtotem clan,is at least present in TB and they play a role into the gameplay experience.
That's the problem.All Exodar Draenei are perfect.The other races' shades of dark are not automatically some npcs to terminate (and exterminate) with extreme prejudice.The Orcs,for example, have Shadow Council agents inside their own city,an official assassination agency (Shattered Hand) and they're the HONORABLE race!
The race has potential but the thing is that they have to get a bit dirty to realize that potential.There are already several scary Knight Templar vindicators. Sure, something more could be
done
with their scariness, but they're there.
Post by
306612
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Post by
558249
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Post by
FarseerLolotea
served only to cheapen both races. The BEs looked like complete chumps, being unable to redeem themselves without the help of a race within the opposite faction, and the Draenei for... well, having absolutely no plans beyond that redemption.I'd have just said "makes the draenei look like plot devices and the blood elves look like patsies." I think there should have been a Liadrin plot line for Horde, and a Velen plot line for Alliance. Why couldn't A'dal have spoken directly
to
Liadrin?
And yes, that requires more involvement of the Our Angels Are Different. Nonetheless, details like that could have made a better case for the sin'dorei actively redeeming
themselves
.
Seriously, I can't even think of a way Blizzard could have handled it worse and still call themselves Blizzard.Well, their writing
has
been slipping lately...
Post by
Grythak
I do not think that Blizzard "forgot" the draenei. Nor do I think that they were intentionally discarded because of the outbursts of draenei-detractors. That's a non-existent causal link with a giant murky cloud in between.Correlation does not necessarily imply causation. But, as Lavok has noted, it's a bit
too
coincidental.It's a conspiracy theory.
It's an excuse that may have worked for Wrath of the Lich King, but the nerdrage over draenei is practically non-existent, despite what some think....you're joking, right? Because it's pretty damn obvious.
Being called "spacegoats" has not hurt the acceptance of draenei anymore than blood elves being called "gay fairies."Beside the point. While the term "spacegoat" is sometimes used as an insult (and is one of the lamest slang terms ever), some people call their own characters that.I'm not joking, but then again, I don't go actively looking for draenei hate posters. I am not implying that you do; I am merely stating that I do not see or look for it. But if people are calling their own characters "spacegoats" without malice, then why is it a big deal? It has become a neutral slang word. Why get defensive about it and post the automated "talbuk" response?
When I speak of "nerdrage," I mean the people yammering about how draenei "ruined the lore." And yes, it happens.There are new "Blizzard Ruined Lore!1!" posts every day about anything else. Draenei aren't special in that regard.
But Blizzard did not purify the draenei so much as sterilize them. Every race
but
the draenei are portrayed in varying shades of grey. The darkest their shades of grey goes is a choice of creme or extra bold French Roast coffee. And they cannot venture into the dark end because then "BOOM! Demon!" The Auchenai beg to differ.
By making them anti-demons, they made the draenei a little too perfect, pure, and powerful.They're not all
that
powerful if the orcs wiped out three-quarters of the race. Sure the draenei can point to the Burning Legion and say, "That is our shade of grey," but it is not present in the draenei faction itself. These draenei have no dark legacy, since they avoided all of the corruption of the Burning Legion and rubbed shoulders with Warcraft angels. Again, the draenei have the Auchenai (and a significant presence in the Wyrmcult). That's at least comparable to, say, the Grimtotems.The Auchenai are not within the Exodar faction, nor do they have a presence with them. They are hostile to Alliance and Horde. And one of the two killable leaders of the Auchendai is a man'ari eredar demon. But you do not even get to see this "dark element" of the draenei until you hit Outland at level 58-60. As someone said, the Grimtotems have a presence in Thunder Bluff and give (pre-Cata) quests to Horde. Their leader Magatha was one of the leaders of Thunder Bluff. You see the Grimtotems in Thunder Bluff, Barrens, Dustwallow Marsh, Stonetalon Mountains, and Thousand Needles. The Auchenai are in one zone on a floating piece of a destroyed planet that is used for levels 58-68. They are removed and distant, and their lack of presence amongst the Exodar draenei completely divorces the draenei's dark element from the players. This reinforces my central argument: draenei are
too
pure and perfect, and it is crippling their story development.
First of all: WTB playable Broken. I mean it.I would have preferred it if the broken was the player race and the draenei were the NPC race that worked with the naaru. They would be a race at the crossroads of their destiny: broken in spirit and form, and faced with the choice between continuing the path of salvation with the naaru or the path of damnation and vengeance. And I would definitely play a broken draenei.
I've always called draenei spacegoats bcause they arrived in a crashed "spaceship" and have legs/hooves similiar to goats... and some of them have horns.... like a goat.By that logic, tauren are goats."By that logic" is one of my least favorite phrases on the internet. It almost always precedes a strawman.
I don't hate the BC lore but some stuff seem
forced
just to support the Draenei race.That's odd, seeing as the draenei were treated like a plot device for the redemption of the blood elves.The draenei have always been a plot device. The eredar were
originally
a plot device to explain Sargeras's fall. They were a plot device to demonstrate the savagery of the Orcish Horde in Draenor. They were a plot device for the redemption of the blood elves. They were even a plot device to demonstrate the corruption in Valiance Keep.
There are already several scary Knight Templar vindicators. Sure, something more could be
done
with their scariness, but they're there.Maybe if you squint your eyes while doing a headstand you can see the scariness.
Post by
Adamsm
But you do not even get to see this "dark element" of the draenei until you hit Outland at level 58-60.Um, what? What about
Sironas?
The Man'ari Eredar behind pretty much every &*!@ty thing that happens on Bloodmyst Isle, responsible for the death of multiple Draenei, and the one leading the Blood Elves against the Exiles?(Sorry, but felt the need to bring it up, as you do see Man'ari on Azeroth before Outland)
Maybe if you squint your eyes while doing a headstand you can see the scariness.The one who kills the Blood Elf captive at Blood Watch, as well as those who kill Matis after he tells them about Sironas?
Post by
FarseerLolotea
It's a conspiracy theory. Now you're just trolling.
I'm not joking, but then again, I don't go actively looking for draenei hate posters. I am not implying that you do; I am merely stating that I do not see or look for it.I have never had any need, whatsoever, to look for it. It's ubiquitous.
But if people are calling their own characters "spacegoats" without malice, then why is it a big deal? It has become a neutral slang word. Why get defensive about it and post the automated "talbuk" response? Because it originally meant "talbuk," and applying it to draenei is
lame
.
And I was not referring merely to lame slang terms. Keep reading.
There are new "Blizzard Ruined Lore!1!" posts every day about anything else. Draenei aren't special in that regard. Actually, draenei are one of a fairly short list of topics that people never seem to get over and
will not stop harping upon
.
The Auchenai are not within the Exodar faction, nor do they have a presence with them. They are hostile to Alliance and Horde. And one of the two killable leaders of the Auchendai is a man'ari eredar demon.Most Grimtotems are hostile to both the Alliance and the Horde, and said man'ari is supposed to have only recently become one. But you do not even get to see this "dark element" of the draenei until you hit Outland at level 58-60. As someone said, the Grimtotems have a presence in Thunder Bluff and give (pre-Cata) quests to Horde. Their leader Magatha was one of the leaders of Thunder Bluff. You see the Grimtotems in Thunder Bluff, Barrens, Dustwallow Marsh, Stonetalon Mountains, and Thousand Needles. The Auchenai are in one zone on a floating piece of a destroyed planet that is used for levels 58-68. They are removed and distant, and their lack of presence amongst the Exodar draenei completely divorces the draenei's dark element from the players. This reinforces my central argument: draenei are
too
pure and perfect, and it is crippling their story development. So...the fact that draenei lore is sketchy as hell in the starting area makes them "too perfect?" Hell, you get several scary Knight Templar vindicators in the starting area. "By that logic" is one of my least favorite phrases on the internet. It almost always precedes a strawman. Excuse me? If someone says that horns and hooves qualify draenei as "goats," where the
hell
do you get off calling it a "strawman" to point out that that would also qualify tauren as such?
The draenei have always been a plot device. The eredar were
originally
a plot device to explain Sargeras's fall. They were a plot device to demonstrate the savagery of the Orcish Horde in Draenor. They were a plot device for the redemption of the blood elves. They were even a plot device to demonstrate the corruption in Valiance Keep. And why is the fact that they're still being treated as such—rather than getting any lore development—not a bad thing that needs to change now that they've been a playable race for two expansion packs now?
Oh, wait...you're gloating, aren't you?
Maybe if you squint your eyes while doing a headstand you can see the scariness.Or maybe you can
miss
the scariness if you squeeze your eyes shut as tightly as possible in an attempt to maintain your illusion that draenei are a race of Purity Sues.
Um, what? What about
Sironas?
The Man'ari Eredar behind pretty much every &*!@ty thing that happens on Bloodmyst Isle, responsible for the death of multiple Draenei, and the one leading the Blood Elves against the Exiles?(Sorry, but felt the need to bring it up, as you do see Man'ari on Azeroth before Outland)To be fair, man'ari don't really count. Although there
is
the fact that she slipped in under everyone's radar.
The one who kills the Blood Elf captive at Blood Watch, as well as those who kill Matis after he tells them about Sironas?I think he's trolling.
Post by
Adamsm
He made a comment about not seeing the 'darker' aspect of the Draenei... except she's there, playing the Spider to all the Blood Elf flies, and you don't get much darker then the 'cousins' of the Draenei.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
He made a comment about not seeing the 'darker' aspect of the Draenei... except she's there, playing the Spider to all the Blood Elf flies, and you don't get much darker then the 'cousins' of the Draenei.No matter how many times you point it out to him—or how much it shouldn't need pointing out—I think he's going to dismiss it, and make fun of you in the bargain. Hell—I can find evidence that draenei aren't an entire race of Purity Sues
without
pointing a finger at the man'ari; and you'll notice that he found excuses to brush that off.
And then, there's his attempt to personally needle me in the draenei druid thread. Between that and the deliberate misuse of terminology, I think he
is
trolling.
Post by
Adamsm
More then likely. Blizzard did do one thing wrong with the Draenei, and unfortunately, they haven't been working that hard to fix it(of course, there not doing much with them anyways); Akama and the Ashtongue were the 'dark' aspect of the Broken, yet they redeemed themselves at the end. The Kurenai are violent, vicious, and completely paranoid... yet, we gain their friendship(Alliance side) fairly quickly. Even Velen and the Naaru take it a bit far; after all, he's forgiven the Orcs for what they did while under the Legion corruption, and he's trying to get every other Draenei to feel the same way... with some success.
Look at the quest in Telhamat, where the Broken sends you off to kill a bunch of Mag'har to get revenge.. and when your finished that quest and return to the town, the actual Draenei reams him out for giving in to revenge(the fact that the Draenei being revenged didn't die to the Mag'har but the Fel Orcs is a whole other kettle of fish).
Post by
FarseerLolotea
More then likely. Blizzard did do one thing wrong with the Draenei, and unfortunately, they haven't been working that hard to fix it(of course, there not doing much with them anyways); Akama and the Ashtongue were the 'dark' aspect of the Broken, yet they redeemed themselves at the end. The Kurenai are violent, vicious, and completely paranoid... yet, we gain their friendship(Alliance side) fairly quickly.The trouble with the Kurenai is that their violence, viciousness, and paranoia were just short of
Informed Flaw
status. There wasn't
nearly
enough focus on any of the above. Even Velen and the Naaru take it a bit far; after all, he's forgiven the Orcs for what they did while under the Legion corruption, and he's trying to get every other Draenei to feel the same way... with some success.Indeed. (WTB
more
scary Knight Templar vindicators, please...angry paladins are awesome...)
Look at the quest in Telhamat, where the Broken sends you off to kill a bunch of Mag'har to get revenge.. and when your finished that quest and return to the town, the actual Draenei reams him out for giving in to revenge(the fact that the Draenei being revenged didn't die to the Mag'har but the Fel Orcs is a whole other kettle of fish).And even then, it's treated less as "Makuru is slightly creepy for having you do that" than as "he jumped the gun."
Post by
Grythak
It's a conspiracy theory. Now you're just trolling.I'm being respectful of you, and I wish you would reciprocate the courtesy by avoiding ad hominem attacks by accusing me of being a troll. I am not a troll, nor am I engaged in any troll-like activities with my comment. The inability for people to supply any substantial links, whether correlative or causal, between the complaints people initially had about draenei for Burning Crusade and the lack of draenei lore now requires people to create that link themselves.
I have never had any need, whatsoever, to look for it. It's ubiquitous.This point does not appear to be going anywhere. You see it. I don't. *shrug* We'll just respectfully agree to disagree here.
Because it originally meant "talbuk," and applying it to draenei is
lame
.Then why get defensive about something that is both lame and commonplace?
Actually, draenei are one of a fairly short list of topics that people never seem to get over and
will not stop harping upon
.I'm not sure if it is the draenei so much as it is the naaru dimension ship. As I am sure you notice, what consistently tops the list are not so much races, but technology (e.g., gnomish nuclear power, titan world machines and computers, naaru dimension ships, etc.). Draenei are just guilty by association with this "lore ruining" technology. It's irrational, but so is most of the draenei hate.
So...the fact that draenei lore is sketchy as hell in the starting area makes them "too perfect?" Hell, you get several scary Knight Templar vindicators in the starting area. I see your point. They just seem so completely overshadowed by the rest of the draenei throughout the starting zones. It would be nice if Blizzard expanded their roles. Or showing more rogue factions within the draenei that want to take vengeance into their own hands. The Argent Crusade has the Scarlet Crusade as their contrast. I honestly would like to see a contrast to the Hand of Argus.
Excuse me? If someone says that horns and hooves qualify draenei as "goats," where the
hell
do you get off calling it a "strawman" to point out that that would also qualify tauren as such?Point taken. I withdraw my comment.
And why is the fact that they're still being treated as such—rather than getting any lore development—not a bad thing that needs to change now that they've been a playable race for two expansion packs now?
Oh, wait...you're gloating, aren't you?You misunderstand me. I'm not gloating. What reason do I have to gloat? And why am I being accused of gloating after repeatedly posting in support of draenei? It is not a development I want to see continue. I'm just pointing out the long, unfortunate history in which the draenei served as plot devices in Blizzard's writing.
Or maybe you can
miss
the scariness if you squeeze your eyes shut as tightly as possible in an attempt to maintain your illusion that draenei are a race of Purity Sues.Sorry for jesting. The draenei are a race characterized by their purity and devotion to the Light. The scariness is few, far, and in between when compared with other races. I would just like to see it accented a bit more sharply. As you have demonstrated, the draenei are not necessarily as pure as I made them out to be, but they are perceived to be that way. And if that is the way that Blizzard continues to use them and also perceive them, then draenei lore development will likely be troubled.
I think he's trolling.I am posting suggestions for how I want to see the draenei improved and given an increased story presence, and I'm a troll? I do not understand your hostility towards me, and I think you being extremely unfair and harsh in your assessment.
But you do not even get to see this "dark element" of the draenei until you hit Outland at level 58-60.Um, what? What about
Sironas?
The Man'ari Eredar behind pretty much every &*!@ty thing that happens on Bloodmyst Isle, responsible for the death of multiple Draenei, and the one leading the Blood Elves against the Exiles?(Sorry, but felt the need to bring it up, as you do see Man'ari on Azeroth before Outland)I did not say that you do not see the man'ari prior to Outland, but that you do not see the Auchenai, this dark element of the draenei race, prior to Outland. I was just pointing out that one of the leaders of the Auchenai is a man'ari eredar.
The one who kills the Blood Elf captive at Blood Watch, as well as those who kill Matis after he tells them about Sironas?I forgot about them. Good find.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
I'm being respectful of you, and I wish you would reciprocate the courtesy by avoiding ad hominem attacks by accusing me of being a troll.Your idea of "respectful" seems to be at least a few other people's idea of "snotty and condescending."
I am not a troll, nor am I engaged in any troll-like activities with my comment. The inability for people to supply any substantial links, whether correlative or causal, between the complaints people initially had about draenei for Burning Crusade and the lack of draenei lore now requires people to create that link themselves. There's a rather blatant correlation, which has been repeatedly pointed out. You have dismissed it offhand every time.
Then why get defensive about something that is both lame and commonplace? Because when something gets done to death, it gets
annoying
after a while. I suspect that there's also many a gnome player whose hackles go up at the word "punt."
I'm not sure if it is the draenei so much as it is the naaru dimension ship. As I am sure you notice, what consistently tops the list are not so much races, but technology (e.g., gnomish nuclear power, titan world machines and computers, naaru dimension ships, etc.). Draenei are just guilty by association with this "lore ruining" technology. It's irrational, but so is most of the draenei hate.Now, I think you may have a point here.
However, there's plenty of squawking specifically about draenei. And there's really
not
much squawking at all about Titan magitek or gnomish technology.
In fact, point any of the above out to someone complaining about how naaru constructs strain their suspension of disbelief, and you're likely to get "well, that's different, because it's not
science fiction
crap in a
medieval setting
!" as a response
I see your point. They just seem so completely overshadowed by the rest of the draenei throughout the starting zones. It would be nice if Blizzard expanded their roles. Or showing more rogue factions within the draenei that want to take vengeance into their own hands. The Argent Crusade has the Scarlet Crusade as their contrast. I honestly would like to see a contrast to the Hand of Argus. Indeed.
Point taken. I withdraw my comment. Okay.
You misunderstand me. I'm not gloating. What reason do I have to gloat? And why am I being accused of gloating after repeatedly posting in support of draenei? It is not a development I want to see continue. I'm just pointing out the long, unfortunate history in which the draenei served as plot devices in Blizzard's writing. All right, then. I see. The way you worded it came off as "well, that's what they're
for
."
Sorry for jesting. The draenei are a race characterized by their purity and devotion to the Light. The scariness is few, far, and in between when compared with other races. I would just like to see it accented a bit more sharply. As you have demonstrated, the draenei are not necessarily as pure as I made them out to be, but they are perceived to be that way. And if that is the way that Blizzard continues to use them and also perceive them, then draenei lore development will likely be troubled. I've seen just as many people complaining that draenei are "zealots" (or even) "
Path of Inspiration
" as that they're "too pure."
I am posting suggestions for how I want to see the draenei improved and given an increased story presence, and I'm a troll? I do not understand your hostility towards me, and I think you being extremely unfair and harsh in your assessment. Well, there
is
the way that you deliberately attempted to needle me in the druid thread...
I did not say that you do not see the man'ari prior to Outland, but that you do not see the Auchenai, this dark element of the draenei race, prior to Outland. I was just pointing out that one of the leaders of the Auchenai is a man'ari eredar. There's not much of a backstory on Sironas.
Levixus, on the other hand, is only supposed to have been a man'ari as of fairly recently; he channeled something that he shouldn't have messed with.
I forgot about them. Good find.There's Aldar ranting about killing blood elves in the start area, Kessel sending you to impale Lord Xiz's corpse on a banner pole as a warning to the naga, and Kuros
swatting Matis like a fly
because the little bastard
taunted
him. (Bear in mind that Matis had already been sentenced to death. By Velen, no less.) This is all before your character leaves the isles.
Draenei may be culturally
lawful good
, but they are
not
always "nice."
Post by
Skreeran
Meh. I liked the Sunwell ending.
I thought it was good way of , a) restoring the Sunwell, b) giving the Belf Paladins a redemption (I never really approved of the whole Naaru-sucking thing), and c) showing a reconciliation between two bitter enemies heavily involved in the expansion.
I love me some bitter enemy reconciliation.
Except with Arthas. Really hope he got what he deserved... *grumble* cocky bastard...
Post by
FarseerLolotea
Meh. I liked the Sunwell ending.
I thought it was good way of , a) restoring the Sunwell, b) giving the Belf Paladins a redemption (I never really approved of the whole Naaru-sucking thing), and c) showing a reconciliation between two bitter enemies heavily involved in the expansion.
I love me some bitter enemy reconciliation.The main issues I had with it are—as I stated—that it maintained the status of the draenei as mere plot devices, and took the redemption of the Blood Knights out of their own hands.
Post by
94844
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
Well I think the origins of the whole warcraft universe's archvillains isn't "one thowaway line" but to each its own.The eredar were never the only players in Sargeras's corruption to begin with. Add to that the fact that Kil'jaeden is known as "the Deceiver," and do the math.
I don't &*!@# and moan about them...but no matter how you want to put it,they're spaceships.In the Warcraft context they're as spaceshippy as a Space Hulk or a Battlestar.The Tempest Keep is the International Space Station and Exodar is the Discovery.No, they're really not. Unless, of course, you think the aforementioned Palace of the High Ones (also an entirely magical construct) is a spaceship.
Hell, naaru fortresses don't even travel through space. They travel through the equivalent of the Astral Plane.
Ermmm that doesn't sound good for the Draenei concept...are you saying that they're a McGuffin for another race's storyline and now that the job's done they have no apparent reason to be there?Because that sounds like a good reason people don't care about them.No, quite the opposite. I'm saying that, as far as playable races go, Blizzard has handled them badly by essentially treating them as such.
The vindicators may be menacing but scary or dark?Nah.The only dark draenei are the auchenai and the only interaction they have with the players and the story is serving as temporary scabards.
Bear in mind that I'm concerned about the moral (im)perfection of the Draenei not because I long for dark brooding heroes;its more a concern about the lack of conceptual and characterization depth that stems from such a ,shall we say, omition.First, you say that said Knight Templar vindicators aren't "scary" because they're not grimdark. ("Scary" does not equal grimdark, by the way). Then, you say that you're not
looking
for grimdark...but then, you turn around and say that "well, those Knight Templar vindicators still don't count."
It sounds to me like either you
do
want grimdark but don't want to admit it, or you just want an excuse to keep dismissing draenei as an entire race of Purity Sues.
(Captcha: dynamical sloth. A bit contradictory?)
Post by
Adamsm
The Tempest Keep is the International Space Station and Exodar is the Discovery.You do realize that the Exodar was the fourth satellite of the Tempest Keep right? The Living quarters to go with the Botanica(food and culture), the Mechanar(engineering and power), the Arctraz(self evident) and the Keep itself(the main ship).
Post by
306612
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