This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
Beta
Draenei offical swept under the rug..
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
FarseerLolotea
I am not sure how throwing further unwarranted attacks on my character is beneficial to continued civil discussion. Shall we drop the matter? I don't see how calling you out for your attitude—as
several
people have seen it—is either an attack or unwarranted.
There have been just as many other people on this thread that fail to see a substantial link. Have you not dismissed their views offhand? If someone's in denial of the obvious, there's not much point in arguing with them.
There are just as many if not more threads complaining about the industrialization of Azeroth. While there are such complaints about the draenei, I do not think that it is anywhere as bad as you think that it is.I can't recall as I've seen
any
such thread, much less multiple. And if it's somehow managed to slip our notice, it doesn't exist, right?
Because, seriously...that seems to be the one recurring argument against there being nerdrage about draenei. "I haven't noticed it, so it can't be real."
Someone occasionally posts something to that regard, but how many times do you see people regularly agreeing with them? Where are the multi-page threads of complaint about draenei?There were plenty when BC launched. Where are the multi-page threads of complaint about
any
given race, really? And any thread discussing races is almost guaranteed to garner a disproportionate amount of draenei-bashing; and, on most forums, it tends to be disproportionately rabid.
Mainly, what you'll get is individuals
crapping
threads to whine about draenei. Has the draenei population suffered any as a result?We'll see how much of a drop-off we get when dwarf shaman are available. But what is it about the draenei apart from the naaru dimension ship and the "retcon" do people complain still about to a noteworthy degree?Let's see:
They're "ugly," they're "out of place Alliance-side," they're "lame," they're "wussy," they're "Mary Sues," they're "zealots," they're "hypocrites," they're "plot holes," and they're "just a bad concept." Oh, yeah...and they "ruined the lore."
These are not necessarily conflicting ideas. But I do think that those "complaining" that draenei are
path of inspiration
are likely looking for a way for them to be less pure.Why go against established lore to try to justify it? There's a fan author who writes them kind of like
Zilpha Keatley Snyder's Kindar
, which is bad enough (as far as cultural flaws go) in its own way. Have you not met Mr./Mrs. Perfect? The man or woman who is so annoyingly perfect that you are desperately hoping, and eventually convinced, that he or she is secretly a soul-sucking demon who puts up a façade of perfection? No.
I am not deliberately attempting to needle
you
in that thread. I am arguing against certain ideas and viewpoints in the thread. I argue that gameplay considerations frequently come first and foremost, and that lore can be used to justify
any
race/class combination. Nice try, but you specifically brought up my screen name.
Do you know the quest that indicates or suggests this? I am curious to read it.
Here
. According to the quest, Levixus had at very least still been able to pass for a draenei the previous night.
Yet Matis was hardly innocent in this matter. Matis performed genocide.I didn't say he was innocent. He was, however, unarmed (and possibly restrained, although we can't really tell from the game graphics) and out of his league. Would you not agree that these blood elves are portrayed as far darker than the draenei? Is their "darkness" in this case not overshadowed by the blood elves and portrayed as being justified? Do you believe that the draenei should have behaved differently? Where is the moral quandary?Justified brutality is still brutality. Sure, Matis met a relatively quick and merciful end...but then, we've got characters like
Interrogator
Khan
. (And yes, he's affiliated with the Exodar.)
Post by
571208
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Yet Matis was hardly innocent in this matter. Matis performed genocide. Would you not agree that these blood elves are portrayed as far darker than the draenei? Is their "darkness" in this case not overshadowed by the blood elves and portrayed as being justified? Do you believe that the draenei should have behaved differently? Where is the moral quandary?Seeing as those Blood Elves in question were Kael's and not the Silvermoon ones....
Post by
Grythak
I am not sure how throwing further unwarranted attacks on my character is beneficial to continued civil discussion. Shall we drop the matter? I don't see how calling you out for your attitude—as
several
people have seen it—is either an attack or unwarranted.I am not sure where these
several
people are. I have checked through this entire thread and seen no comments regarding my character by others or any suggesting such qualities apart from your own. But I would like to keep this conversation civil. So again, shall we drop this matter?
There have been just as many other people on this thread that fail to see a substantial link. Have you not dismissed their views offhand? If someone's in denial of the obvious, there's not much point in arguing with them.You are right. Each side believes that the other is missing the in-plain-sight obvious. This is not going anywhere for either side of the discussion.
There are just as many if not more threads complaining about the industrialization of Azeroth. While there are such complaints about the draenei, I do not think that it is anywhere as bad as you think that it is.I can't recall as I've seen
any
such thread, much less multiple. And if it's somehow managed to slip our notice, it doesn't exist, right?
Because, seriously...that seems to be the one recurring argument against there being nerdrage about draenei. "I haven't noticed it, so it can't be real."Except my position is that these threads and complaints do not exist, but that their frequency is grossly exaggerated. This frequency of nerdrage has only died down with time. Draenei enjoy a high player population and support.
Someone occasionally posts something to that regard, but how many times do you see people regularly agreeing with them? Where are the multi-page threads of complaint about draenei?There were plenty when BC launched. Where are the multi-page threads of complaint about
any
given race, really? And any thread discussing races is almost guaranteed to garner a disproportionate amount of draenei-bashing; and, on most forums, it tends to be disproportionately rabid.
Mainly, what you'll get is individuals
crapping
threads to whine about draenei."There were plenty when BC launched," but where are the plenty now? I believe that the amount of backlash and arguments against draenei has dropped down to a
relatively
negligible degree apart from forum trolls, and that this declining backlash should not be held as the reason for the lack of recent draenei lore.
Has the draenei population suffered any as a result?We'll see how much of a drop-off we get when dwarf shaman are available.That's just one race/class combination for the draenei. How much would their population really suffer? And draenei would be losing them to dwarves of all races. As long as the dwarf females are dwarf females, then I would say that the female draenei shaman population are not going anywhere anytime soon.
But what is it about the draenei apart from the naaru dimension ship and the "retcon" do people complain still about to
a noteworthy degree
?Let's see:
They're "ugly," they're "out of place Alliance-side," they're "lame," they're "wussy," they're "Mary Sues," they're "zealots," they're "hypocrites," they're "plot holes," and they're "just a bad concept." Oh, yeah...and they "ruined the lore."Bold mine. I'm still not sure where you got some of these. For example, most people have the exact opposite reaction to the "ugly" comment. Draenei females are considered to be the most attractive of the Alliance females. *waggle, waggle* So this could only really apply to the males, but opinions vary there. In addition, many other models and races are labeled as ugly. The draenei are certainly not alone in this matter. For those I have seen, I will grant you lame, Mary Sues, bad concepts, and plot holes (but you've admitted that they have been used as plot devices). I have not heard, though that it does not mean that said criticism does not exist, the wussy, zealots, and hypocrites comments. (By the way, does it annoy you as much as it does me, how the frequently the term "Mary Sue" is misapplied to races and characters? In relation to draenei, it is most always misapplied.)
These are not necessarily conflicting ideas. But I do think that those "complaining" that draenei are
path of inspiration
are likely looking for a way for them to be less pure.Why go against established lore to try to justify it?If I had to guess why, it would be because present lore is not cutting it for them. They probably have similar complaints as others have raised in this thread about draenei appearing too pure.
Have you not met Mr./Mrs. Perfect? The man or woman who is so annoyingly perfect that you are desperately hoping, and eventually convinced, that he or she is secretly a soul-sucking demon who puts up a façade of perfection? No.Then count yourself amongst the fortunate. Most people I know can name their annoying Mr./Ms. Perfect right off the top of their head. Are you at least familiar with this theme or archetype?
I am not deliberately attempting to needle
you
in that thread. I am arguing against certain ideas and viewpoints in the thread. I argue that gameplay considerations frequently come first and foremost, and that lore can be used to justify
any
race/class combination. Nice try, but you specifically brought up my screen name.At first I was puzzled, but now I know what you are talking about. But that was not needling you. If you felt that I was in that first post, then I am sorry. But you do certainly have the reputation, as you demonstrated in the thread, of being enthusiastically opinionated on the matter draenei (and draenei druids). It's a reputation that you have carried across multiple boards.
Do you know the quest that indicates or suggests this? I am curious to read it.
Here
. According to the quest, Levixus had at very least still been able to pass for a draenei the previous night.Thanks, lolotea. I'm not sure though where it implies that he
recently
channeled something to become a man'ari, or that it was him who
personally
picked up the book. The completion text of the quest does not give you a sense for when his change happened. We are only told he "was communing with demons... They offered him power and then gave him a taste of that power." And didn't Sironas, already a full-fledged man'ari eredar, pass as being draenei as well?
Yet Matis was hardly innocent in this matter. Matis performed genocide.I didn't say he was innocent. He was, however, unarmed (and possibly restrained, although we can't really tell from the game graphics) and out of his league.Most executed on a death sentence are unarmed.
Would you not agree that these blood elves are portrayed as far darker than the draenei? Is their "darkness" in this case not overshadowed by the blood elves and portrayed as being justified? Do you believe that the draenei should have behaved differently? Where is the moral quandary?Justified brutality is still brutality. Sure, Matis met a relatively quick and merciful end...but then, we've got characters like
Interrogator
Khan
. (And yes, he's affiliated with the Exodar.)Before we move on to Knight Templar Interrogator too quickly, would you mind answering some of those questions here? At this point, I want to focus on how Matis and Xiz are presented versus how the draenei are presented here. Since the above questions mostly apply to Matis, I will not repeat them.
I'm not sure if the draenei's "brutality" really comes across in either case. It's not a matter of utter dismissal. It's more about racial quest comparison. Most, if not all, races have quests like the Xiz quest at some point. And these rarely, if ever, come up when discussing a race's shades of grey or moral depth. For example, how often do you hear the posting of Onyxia and Nefarion's heads as signs of brutality or grey shades for either the Alliance or Horde? Yet both dragons are sentient beings. Going back to Xiz, Blizzard presents nagas as an aggressive, malevolent monster race. It is an understood and widely accepted action, because everyone hates and fights the naga. There is not really a moral quandary here.
Yet Matis was hardly innocent in this matter. Matis performed genocide. Would you not agree that these blood elves are portrayed as far darker than the draenei? Is their "darkness" in this case not overshadowed by the blood elves and portrayed as being justified? Do you believe that the draenei should have behaved differently? Where is the moral quandary?Seeing as those Blood Elves in question were Kael's and not the Silvermoon ones....Exactly.
So one problem is how to give the race an active role in this fantasy world community without putting them in a too bright of a spotlight.
Another problem is what is there to write about next. Demons are temporarily held back as of the current story, so nothing about the Burning Legion.
Am I right?Essentially. In order to ensure their long-term longevity, the draenei need further writing that firmly integrates them into the world of Azeroth.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
So one problem is how to give the race an active role in this fantasy world community without putting them in a too bright of a spotlight.Give them as much of an active role as any other race. (An endeavor, by the way, at which Blizzard is already failing.)
Another problem is what is there to write about next. Demons are temporarily held back as of the current story, so nothing about the Burning Legion.They could put more work into integrating them into the greater metaplot.
But I would like to keep this conversation civil. So again, shall we drop this matter? Hey—stop treating us like we're silly, paranoid, and generally less intelligent than you for seeing something that you have either missed or don't want to acknowledge, and I'll stop calling you out for being condescending.
Except my position is that these threads and complaints do not exist, but that their frequency is grossly exaggerated.The trouble with that is that they do exist, and I'm not exaggerating.
This frequency of nerdrage has only died down with time. Draenei enjoy a high player population and support. They're right in the middle as far as Alliance is concerned, even with their numbers falsely padded by their exclusive hold on shaman A-side.
"There were plenty when BC launched," but where are the plenty now?Why are you focusing specifically on multi-page threads when I'm talking about overall activity? I believe that the amount of backlash and arguments against draenei has dropped down to a
relatively
negligible degree apart from forum trolls, and that this declining backlash should not be held as the reason for the lack of recent draenei lore.You can "believe" whatever you want. It doesn't change what's actually going on.
That's just one race/class combination for the draenei. How much would their population really suffer? And draenei would be losing them to dwarves of all races. As long as the dwarf females are dwarf females, then I would say that the female draenei shaman population are not going anywhere anytime soon. Old and tired jokes about female dwarves aside? Fan service only goes so far.
Bold mine. So it's only "noteworthy" if you say it is? Why are you even involved in this discussion if it's so subjective to you?
I'm still not sure where you got some of these.Find any given discussion on the topic of draenei or races, and look for the negative posts. They shouldn't be too hard to find. Hell, there's one rather active threadcrapper at the Awful Forums who's used all of the above
except
"Mary Sue."
For example, most people have the exact opposite reaction to the "ugly" comment. Draenei females are considered to be the most attractive of the Alliance females. *waggle, waggle* So this could only really apply to the males, but opinions vary there.Female draenei can't win, either. They're either "fat" or "too skinny," and anyone playing one is presumed to be a lonely adolescent boy of dubious hygiene.
Hell, their fanservice status is a double-edged sword: It's nearly impossible to be taken seriously RPing as a female draenei, thanks to the Goldshire set. Hence the tail-ridges on my WrA tankadin.
For those I have seen, I will grant you lame, Mary Sues, bad concepts, and plot holes (but you've admitted that they have been used as plot devices).There's a difference between "plot device" and "plot
hole
." A big one.
I have not heard, though that it does not mean that said criticism does not exist, the wussy, zealots, and hypocrites comments.You haven't heard the constant claims that they're "cowards" for staying one step ahead of Kil'jaeden's little vendetta? Or that they've got no business joining the Alliance (and opposing the orcs) when it's somehow "their fault" that the orcs were corrupted?
Because I've seen them in just about
every
draenei lore discussion.
(By the way, does it annoy you as much as it does me, how the frequently the term "Mary Sue" is misapplied to races and characters? In relation to draenei, it is most always misapplied.)Tell me about it. I've had to clean it up on TVTropes quite a bit.
If I had to guess why, it would be because present lore is not cutting it for them. They probably have similar complaints as others have raised in this thread about draenei appearing too pure. Again, embellishing established lore is one thing (read
Travels Through Azeroth and Outland
, specifically
these
segments
, to see what I'm talking about). Outright contradicting it is another.
Then count yourself amongst the fortunate. Most people I know can name their annoying Mr./Ms. Perfect right off the top of their head. Are you at least familiar with this theme or archetype? Yes, I am. It's a common twist on the usage of jealousy as a plot device.
At first I was puzzled, but now I know what you are talking about. But that was not needling you. If you felt that I was in that first post, then I am sorry.Presuming that I'm the only one who could
possibly
hold a certain view? Yeah, that's needling.
But you do certainly have the reputation, as you demonstrated in the thread, of being enthusiastically opinionated on the matter draenei (and draenei druids). It's a reputation that you have carried across multiple boards. That's not an excuse.
Thanks, lolotea. I'm not sure though where it implies that he
recently
channeled something to become a man'ari, or that it was him who
personally
picked up the book. The completion text of the quest does not give you a sense for when his change happened. We are only told he "was communing with demons... They offered him power and then gave him a taste of that power." And didn't Sironas, already a full-fledged man'ari eredar, pass as being draenei as well? Yes, Sironas passed herself off as a draenei. However, would she have fooled a close relative so readily? (In case you missed that part: Levixus is Nitrin's
son
.)
Before we move on to Knight Templar Interrogator too quickly, would you mind answering some of those questions here? At this point, I want to focus on how Matis and Xiz are presented versus how the draenei are presented here. Since the above questions mostly apply to Matis, I will not repeat them.
I'm not sure if the draenei's "brutality" really comes across in either case. It's not a matter of utter dismissal. It's more about racial quest comparison. Most, if not all, races have quests like the Xiz quest at some point. And these rarely, if ever, come up when discussing a race's shades of grey or moral depth. For example, how often do you hear the posting of Onyxia and Nefarion's heads as signs of brutality or grey shades for either the Alliance or Horde? Yet both dragons are sentient beings. Going back to Xiz, Blizzard presents nagas as an aggressive, malevolent monster race. It is an understood and widely accepted action, because everyone hates and fights the naga. There is not really a moral quandary here.Do those draenei know the difference between Kael'thas's forces, Silvermoon, and the Scryers? Hell,
Silvermoon
didn't know Kael'thas wasn't their guy any longer at that point.
And am I going to have to go outside of the game for examples of draenei behaving in a less-than-exemplary fashion? Because while there's really not much on draenei at
all
—hence my assertion that it's less about their being "too pure" than about their being
undeveloped
—I can easily think of one right off the bat.
Essentially. In order to ensure their long-term longevity, the draenei need further writing that firmly integrates them into the world of Azeroth.And you'll get no argument from me on that. However, there hasn't been much of an effort.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
My virgina is blue, your argument is invalid
1) What is this?
2) I don't even...
Post by
Adamsm
/facepalm Lobstah....
Post by
FarseerLolotea
/facepalm Lobstah....Yes, I concur wholeheartedly.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
I didn't know the B word used to describe a womans breasts is considered "foul"That's not what we were talking about, and you know it.
Post by
452949
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
The only reason they are in game is because we are human. And we dont even know how we came to be.
Um, the whole thing with the Vrykul.....
Post by
452949
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
The only reason they are in game is because we are human. And we dont even know how we came to be.
Um, the whole thing with the Vrykul.....
O never read anything about it.also about the we dont even know how we came to be i was talking about irl.
Lol; aye who knows in RL, but in Azeroth, the Humans are mutations from the Curse of Flesh on Vrykul, then the Sundering hit and the original human tribes called the Azora all ended up on the Eastern Kingdom continent, where they set up the start of the Arathor empire.... then everything went to hell, till the King of the Arathor's conqueror all the other human lands and forged them into one massive group.... just in time for the High Elves to need the help for the Troll War's 4k years in Azeroth past lol.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
452949
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
just in time for the High Elves to need the help for the Troll War's 4k years in Azeroth past lol.
Both nations needed one another though :p
Heh, aye I know; the humans got the start of the Seventh Kingdom because of the High Elves, and the Elves got another force of bodies to toss at the Troll juggernaut trying to slaughter them all.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
Also how do humans have kick ass lore?Well, they do certainly have a
lot
of it... The only reason they are in game is because we are human.True; and, as a result, they're one of the main focus races. And we dont even know how we came to be.False, as Adams has already explained.
As for IRL? It was God, evolution, or both. Most likely both.
Post by
Monday
It was God, evolution, or both. Most likely both
QFT. And inb4 "God doesn't exist".
Now for some meaningful stuff, I still think the draenei aren't getting some important lore right now for a couple reason s(bear with me, and feel free to pick apart my stuff.)
First off, the only draenei army in Northrend was caught in the web of the San'layn Valanar. And considering the draenei population, I'm surprised they even managed to field one army after all the fiasco in Outland.
Secondly, they have enough issues trying to stabilize themselves in their homeland to worry about sending armies off. While there are draenei in various places (Western Plaguelands, Hillsbrad Foothills), their only bases are in Kalimdor, and considering the majority of the Alliance is situated in Eastern Kingdoms there is indeed going to be a lack of communication between the two parties.
And lastly of my thoughts, to be quite honest the draenei aren't exactly important enough to warrant Cataclysm changes right at the very beginning. Deathwing is surfacing across Kalimdor, so the isles will most likely not be affected, and 2ndly, they've only been out a bit, and Blizzard most likely doesn't want to change them quite yet.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
QFT. And inb4 "God doesn't exist".I remember, when I was about nine or ten, getting in an interesting discussion with a particularly religious kid. I kept explaining evolution; she kept saying "well, where did
that
come from?"
I finally brought it down to water and chemicals. She said "well, where did
that
come from?"
My response was "God put it there. I never said God wasn't real. In fact, God made evolution; like a science project, only bigger." (Yeah, yeah, not very articulate; I was ten, dammit.)
Now for some meaningful stuff, I still think the draenei aren't getting some important lore right now for a couple reason s(bear with me, and feel free to pick apart my stuff.)
First off, the only draenei army in Northrend was caught in the web of the San'layn Valanar. And considering the draenei population, I'm surprised they even managed to field one army after all the fiasco in Outland.Understandable, although that doesn't explain all the vindicators in the Argent Crusade.
Secondly, they have enough issues trying to stabilize themselves in their homeland to worry about sending armies off. While there are draenei in various places (Western Plaguelands, Hillsbrad Foothills), their only bases are in Kalimdor, and considering the majority of the Alliance is situated in Eastern Kingdoms there is indeed going to be a lack of communication between the two parties. Possibly, although they're actively seeking contact.
And lastly of my thoughts, to be quite honest the draenei aren't exactly important enough to warrant Cataclysm changes right at the very beginning. Deathwing is surfacing across Kalimdor, so the isles will most likely not be affected, and 2ndly, they've only been out a bit, and Blizzard most likely doesn't want to change them quite yet.When you can point at a playable race and say "they're not important," that is a weak point in the setting.
(Captcha was "met wraiths." I should hope not.)
Post by
Monday
When you can point at a playable race and say "they're not important," that is a weak point in the setting.
What I meant by that is that they and the Blood Elves were added in BC, and Blizzard doesn't seem to want to change that stuff. And they haven't played a large enough part to warrant pre-release info. I'm sure they will get stuff in Cataclysm, but for now Blizzard is really only releasing the big important stuff. (And before you say anything, I'm sad the draenei aren't getting new stuff. My Shaman, Mage and Death Knight are all fraenei.)
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.