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Cataclysm rogue thread (all news should be posted here)
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Post by
Coldkil
anothe blue post:
Auto attack and abilities
Imagine a rogue could do 80% of their damage just by right clicking on a target. That means that at best, you've got 20% of damage to play with to separate the best rogue in the world from the guy who just autoattacks. That's largely what we mean when we're concerned about too much damage coming from white attacks.
You can argue that Slice and Dice doesn't take much effort on the part of the rogue, but it does take some. Managing your energy and cooldowns takes a little more, and so on, until we reach a point where the best rogues in the world do significantly more damage than those who just autoattack and perhaps let Slice and Dice occasionally fall off.
I think viscerally, some players just don't like spending their resource on buffs. They want to convert it all into big numbers, because big numbers are fun. Those self buffs serve a purpose though. They help serve as a damage buffer. They provide a little bit of ramp up time. They account for one more ball you need to juggle to keep in the air. It wouldn't be hard to juggle just the one ball, but you're often asked to do a lot more than that. (
Source
)
Stunlocks
They "stopped the arms race" by disarming rogues of stunlocks, which were already taken care of with the increased HP pools, but didn't remove the reactionary (and far more OP) skills that negate the emasculated stuns.
That wasn't the problem with stunlocks. It wasn't a balance issue per se of whether or not the rogue could kill someone or not. The problem was that the situation was too binary. If the rogue executed a perfect stun chain, then they would win. If they screwed up or were countered, they would lose. Both the rogue and the opponent might as well have 1 health in that scenario because there is no room for fractions. Imagine instead that getting 1 stun off makes you half as effective instead of not effective at all.
There are ways for some classes to mitigate stuns, absolutely. (The alternative is the awesome rogue just always gets a stun off.) But there are fewer than before, and the talents that just provide mechanic duration reductions are all gone. That was the arms race we were talking about. If rogues can just never stun anyone and are kited all the time, then we'll fix it. But very few of you have experienced level 85 PvP yet, so it's hard to for us to react too strongly to supposition and hypothesis.
Try out the Tol Barad tests we're doing soon and see how it feels in appropriate gear at max level. (
Source
)
Post by
105944
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Coldkil
gosh stole my post :)
anyway, as predicted wf nerf -> ability buff.
nice for assasination, and
maybe
for combat. bs now hits like a truck. SS too. want the same for muti LOL
edit:
sub swords
seems not a bad idea now. time for testing is near.
edit2: good news for
combat builds
too. still need to fix the mastery, the rest it's ok.
Post by
Caperon
I welcome these changes.
Post by
razzem
So hemo spamming for CPs will no longer be even close with backstab taking such a big jump, right?
I liked hemo... plus, now I see Sub rogues having the same issues that Feral Cats are having in pvp... people are smartening up to taking huge hits in the back and are backing up against walls.
I hope they buff Hemo some like they did with Mangle for cats, to keep it at least competitive (if somewhat of a step down) for when you can't get into position on your target's back.
Post by
razzem
Edit: maybe some calculations are in order:
Backstab: daggers, 200% weapon damage; +518? base dmg; 40 E = 5 dpe
Hemorrhage:daggers, 160% weapon damage; +0 base dmg; 29 E = 5.51 dpe
So Hemo will be out damaged by BS and should be out-scaled with gear by quite a bit as well, but dpe-wise, hemo looks as though it might be better, at least from my rough calculations.
Is my math sucking? Someone double check me.
Post by
Caperon
Is my math sucking?
Yes.
Post by
Coldkil
renamed thread for clarification (since this is no more a talent tree only thread)
Post by
Caperon
Nice one.
Post by
razzem
Is my math sucking?
Yes.
Your reasoning and thought process helped me out so much!
Post by
Coldkil
Your reasoning and thought process helped me out so much!
your math is wrong. assuming you have a weapon that does X damage (and i'm simplifying much the things), the formulae should be like this:
BS: 200*X + 518 (costs 40 energy)
hemo: 160*X (costs 29 energy)
from here we see that bs scales much better with weapon damage.
so we can get
BS DPE: 5*X + 12.95
hemo DPE: 5.51*X
problem here is that we don't know how big is X, so it's too early to say something.
anyway, even if hemo spam will result in a better tactic, expect it to be nerfed. hemo is meant to be used for the debuff / glyph, so if numbers go wild, blizz will take care of them.
Post by
Caperon
Also talents.
Post by
razzem
I see; good points on the calculations... I knew I was screwing something up which is why I asked.
Yeah, I hear ya that hemo isn't supposed to be our bread and butter attack as subtlety attack, but neither is mangle for feral cats which does the same thing. If we can't get position on people in pvp, we are left with hemo... so hopefully it doesn't get outpaced too much by BS.
Although you could go 8 points into combat for full talent SS. Hmmm.
Post by
Coldkil
Although you could go 8 points into combat for full talent SS. Hmmm.
the thing i'm saying from when ptr is out. my tests with sub dagger and sub swords provide nearly the same numbers.
Post by
razzem
Although you could go 8 points into combat for full talent SS. Hmmm.
the thing i'm saying from when ptr is out. my tests with sub dagger and sub swords provide nearly the same numbers.
So you're saying that Sub daggers using BS is about the same dmg output as Sub swords using SS? If that's the case, very interesting (plus they are buffing the first tier Imp SS to do more dmg in the next beta build). The only problem I see so far is that if you go Swords/SS with Sub, you end up having to spend a couple talents in the first couple tiers that only benefit dagger abilities to get deeper in the tree.
Post by
Coldkil
yeah you pretty much summed up the pros/cons of the spec.
anyway all is subject to change, since values are tuned for lvl85. and i think that bs will push more than ss for sub specs.
Post by
Liquoid
Is my math sucking?
Courtesy of Corgan
.
Post by
razzem
Is my math sucking?
Courtesy of Corgan
.
I'm not clicking that!
:D
Post by
Liquoid
I guess you
could
call it SFW.
Post by
Azazel
Is my math sucking?
Courtesy of Corgan
.
Small tallywhacker.
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