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The Garrosh Thread
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Post by
Skreeran
And on another note? I'm not sure how much you've studied cultural anthropology...but drowning weak babies makes them...well, no worse than a lot of real-world cultures, some of which history still names "civilized." Should we conclude that humans are inherently brutal? (I plead the Fifth.)I actually brought that up earlier in this thread I believe.
I'm not saying that the orcs are inherently brutal, at least, no more brutal than we humans are. What I'm saying is that the human Zeitgeist in the real world has changed a great deal since our baby-drowning days, and the Azeroth orcs have changed to a certain degree as well, while the Mag'har have remained culturally and idealistically the same since the Horde marched through the Portal. A living time capsule, so to speak.
If you wish to argue that the orcs were not always as prone to genocide as they were when they killed the Draenei, that's fine. What I'm saying is that the Mag'har are stuck, culturally, in the time period when they were that prone to genocide. That's why we have the Mag'har hating Draenei, and calling them "our ancient enemies," and that's why Garrosh wants to kill anyone who gets in the Horde's way.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
If you wish to argue that the orcs were not always as prone to genocide as they were when they killed the Draenei, that's fine.Which is really what I was getting at. :P
What I'm saying is that the Mag'har are stuck, culturally, in the time period when they were that prone to genocide. That's why we have the Mag'har hating Draenei, and calling them "our ancient enemies," and that's why Garrosh wants to kill anyone who gets in the Horde's way.Fair enough. However, I still don't think it's entirely accurate to attribute the different philosophy of Thrall's Horde strictly to human influence.
The Mag'har may be
physically
uncorrupted.
Culturally
, however? That's another matter altogether. (One should also recall that Squeal is a Warsong—according to
Rise of the Horde
, a notoriously touchy and xenophobic tribe to begin with.)
Post by
creepingshadow98
well know i worship rankkorr,hivolt,skree and scorisis <------ off-topic i know
btw i dont undertsand.....why are the forsaken attacking the worgen starting zone? i know that worgen are alliance and forsaken horde are enemies but its just them that are putting the worgen under siege...... :P
Post by
creepingshadow98
wait a minute orcs are not really prone to genocide :0 they where under the influance of gul'dan (i think thats his name anyway :P) and they where also under the corruption of mannoroth they where being ordered to wipe out the dreani
Post by
Rekijan
creepingshadow98
First post, wowwiki is your friend.
Second post, Gul'dan is Ner'zuhl's apprentice who took over when Nerzuhl found out he was being mislead.
And whether they were all corrupted by Kil'jaeden or just the two locks and then followed them happily isn't known.
Also they only became slaves to mannoroth after willingly drinking of his blood.
Post by
creepingshadow98
but i remember reading somewhere that the dreani fled to the planet of dreanor after most of there civilisation where curropted by archimonde only one of the original dreani leaders found out what archimonde was up to he so he fled with some of the dreani that believed him helped by the narru and they fled for years in their giant ship then landed on dreanor where they made peace with the orcs that lived there at the time when the two other corrupted dreani leaders and their followers (now known as erador) found out where they where instead of charging in. they curropted one (or two) of the orc shamans then they did some weird stuff to the orcs and they set them on the dreani which where nearly destroyed but just about escaped the planet on their ship which soon crash landed on azeroth
Post by
Rekijan
You are massively mixing up lore now.
On the topics you mention I suggest you go read the following links, and maybe some links on those pages.
http://www.wowwiki.com/Eredar
http://www.wowwiki.com/Ner'zhul
http://www.wowwiki.com/Gul'dan
Post by
creepingshadow98
ughh........ im mixed up everything -.-''
Post by
Skreeran
If you wish to argue that the orcs were not always as prone to genocide as they were when they killed the Draenei, that's fine.Which is really what I was getting at. :PI don't quite have a stance on that, I still disagree to some extent about the historical brutality of the orcs, but I do think that they were made more violent after they started killing the Draenei.
I remember Orgrim thinking something like "A child is innocent, always, but if its parents were plotting against the orcs like Ner'zhul claimed, then they had to die" or something to that extent (too lazy to grab the book atm).
So yeah, the "death to the last child" thing was new. But as long as you understand my Zeitgeist theory, I think we're on the same page.
What I'm saying is that the Mag'har are stuck, culturally, in the time period when they were that prone to genocide. That's why we have the Mag'har hating Draenei, and calling them "our ancient enemies," and that's why Garrosh wants to kill anyone who gets in the Horde's way.Fair enough. However, I still don't think it's entirely accurate to attribute the different philosophy of Thrall's Horde strictly to human influence.
The Mag'har may be
physically
uncorrupted.
Culturally
, however? That's another matter altogether. (One should also recall that Squeal is a Warsong—according to
Rise of the Horde
, a notoriously touchy and xenophobic tribe to begin with.)I never attributed their shift in philosophy to purely human influence. There is undoubtedly
some
human influence, but I think the great majority of the shift was started by Orgrim Doomhammer, who started spreading Frostwolf ideals (acquired thanks to his friend Durotan) of mercy, fairness, and the like among the Old Horde. This was carried on by Thrall, Orgrim's protégé, who also had taken parts of his philosophy from Drek'thar and Taretha. Saurfang, Rexxar, and Grom also helped spread these ideals, from Grom's scolding his clansman for ordering a child killed, to Saurfang's helping veterans cope after the death of Mannoroth.
But yeah, the New Horde is vastly different in its philosophy than the First Horde, thanks to gradual change of ideals under charismatic and popular leaders, where the Mag'har have remained unchanged since the day the Horde marched through the portal.
It's not just Garrosh that's crazy for war, it's the fact that he's a Hellscream raised in the ways of the First Horde. He hasn't been exposed to all the things that have changed the Azeroth orcs into what they are today.
Post by
457614
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
Unless it's a deliberately calculated "make or break," leaving him as the de facto leader of the Horde was a wrongheaded way to do it. Hell, it's wrongheaded even if it is "make or break."That's what I'm seeing it as; Saurfang is off being busy elsewhere, Cairne is dealing with things in Thunder Bluff, Vol'jin and his people are resettling the islands, Sylvanas... well... yeah, and Lor'themar does nothing; Garrosh was pretty much it heh; and Thrall set it up to see if the son of Grom can handle being a true leader or not; if he fails, Thrall returns and Garrosh is sent off to Outland or something. He succeeds, Thrall returns, takes the reins back(as again, Garrosh is only the temporary Warchief), and Garrosh takes a place as an adviser, hopefully wiser and more prepared to actually help with the Horde.
Just wanted to put it out there that Nazgrel isn't such a bad choice either.Or Jorin Deadeye.
Post by
creepingshadow98
sorry for sounding like a noob here but....why in the first place did garrrosh replace thrall as warchief of the horde? (i havent been able to play wow for while, stupid exams -.-'')
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
creepingshadow98
ahhhhhhhhhh.....
Post by
Garrosh
I've tackled Garrosh before in an attempt to write his character, and I can say that I sympathize with his motives and goals, if not his means.
He really does love his people and he wants what's best for them. The Horde is living in a desert at the moment, without any nearby source of lumber (at least until Cataclysm), while the Night Elves are sitting up there in prosperity and refusing to share the trees that the Horde needs for shelter and warmth. At least, that's how Garrosh sees it. What he wants is prosperity and happiness for his people. I share his sentiments here.
About time one of you idiots understood. I've got much to contend with. I don't need weakness, and we're better than the Alliance scum anyway.
Garrosh's solution to this, however, is something I do not agree with.
Coward.
Post by
Adamsm
Yup, because the Horde is just that weak and it needs Thrall to hold it's hand and play Daddy.No, but it'd do better with Vol'jin or Gorgonna or someone else with a lick of common sense in charge.That was aimed at Taurenmoo Farseer, and how he believes that without Thrall playing daddy, the Horde goes to hell in a hand basket, because it can't exist without him.... /roll eyes.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Garrosh
I don't need a picture of a brown-skinned Orc. I am sufficiently pleased by the icon that I have selected.
Whelp.
Post by
514575
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
I've tackled Garrosh before in an attempt to write his character, and I can say that I sympathize with his motives and goals, if not his means.
He really does love his people and he wants what's best for them. The Horde is living in a desert at the moment, without any nearby source of lumber (at least until Cataclysm), while the Night Elves are sitting up there in prosperity and refusing to share the trees that the Horde needs for shelter and warmth. At least, that's how Garrosh sees it. What he wants is prosperity and happiness for his people. I share his sentiments here.
About time one of you idiots understood. I've got much to contend with. I don't need weakness, and we're better than the Alliance scum anyway.
Garrosh's solution to this, however, is something I do not agree with.
Coward.MAK'GORA!
No one calls Nakresh Ogrefist of the Blackrock Clan a coward! I have fought Gronn and Demon, Scourge and Human while you were moping like a whipped dog in Garadar!
I challenge you for leadership of the Horde, Hellscream!
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