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Racism Rant
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Post by
181961
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
HiVolt
So, yes and no. If there's an action to be apologised for, it should be. But they shouldn't need to apologise just for feeling offended and/or speaking out about the fact they feel offended.
I think you may have misunderstood my question. I meant to ask if those bystanders who laugh should be apologizing to the offended person, not if the offended person should apologize for being offended. The action to be apologized for in question is the bystanders' act of laughing at the "offensive" joke.
Girl: "Will you go out with me?"
Guy: "Why would I? You're so fat, you generate your own gravitational field."
Guy's friends: "Hahahahaha!"
Girl: <runs off crying>
Absurdity doesn't absolve bigotry in and of its own right.
I see your point. But I will point out a distinct difference in our examples that I find relevant. In your example the offending phrase is uttered directly toward the party at whose expense it is made. In mine it is not. Does that absolve it of bigotry? No it does not. Does it render that bigotry harmless while not removing the undertone of bigotry completely? I think that absolutely yes it does- because it is not directed to the person at whose expense it is made. In this case, it is the audience that matters.
(And still, I have to admit that I think someone would have to be very insecure to be offended by such a lame joke. I know it was my example- but still I think your reworking of it seems to be a bit on the extreme side to me. It is valid, though, I'll admit that and I won't press the any further as the instance of insecurity is very subjective.)
I actually don't hear structured jokes from anybody these days. The closest I get to structured jokes are when my best friend and I start chain-punning on a topic. (don't ask...)
But would you agree that you hear humorous stories more often from friends and colleagues than random people you happen to talk to at any given point? And if that is the case, as the former is more frequent, wouldn't those evidences carry more weight than the more infrequent latter situations?
And I totally know what you mean by chain-punning. My friends and I do that from time to time as well. :D
Post by
Squishalot
I think you may have misunderstood my question. I meant to ask if those bystanders who laugh should be apologizing to the offended person, not if the offended person should apologize for being offended. The action to be apologized for in question is the bystanders' act of laughing at the "offensive" joke.
Ahh, I see. I'm not sure, but I'm inclined to say that they should. For the same reason that the bystander boys laughing at the girl probably should. For the sake of argument, I'm assuming 'laugh' means a full, enjoyable laugh, as opposed to the awkward 'uh .. he.. he.. *looks away*' type.
Does it render that bigotry harmless while not removing the undertone of bigotry completely? I think that absolutely yes it does- because it is not directed to the person at whose expense it is made.
I disagree (in case you were wondering ;)). Is preaching white supremacy and black hate to the white people harmless? It may not be immediately harmful, but I would contend that it harms in the long term.
(And still, I have to admit that I think someone would have to be very insecure to be offended by such a lame joke. I know it was my example- but still I think your reworking of it seems to be a bit on the extreme side to me. It is valid, though, I'll admit that and I won't press the any further as the instance of insecurity is very subjective.)
I don't think it's that extreme. I think it's very school-ground. It's the attitude of "I'm going to put you down, and joke around so that people think I'm win". The insecurity / offense relates to the putdown, not the joke itself, but the point was that a joke can be used to put someone down in the first place.
But would you agree that you hear humorous stories more often from friends and colleagues than random people you happen to talk to at any given point? And if that is the case, as the former is more frequent, wouldn't those evidences carry more weight than the more infrequent latter situations?
Oh, I agree, you do. But then, my point was in relation to not being able to expect an offending remark from them, similarly to friends / colleagues, and we already agreed to disagree here :)
And I totally know what you mean by chain-punning. My friends and I do that from time to time as well. :D
Ahh, we're all geeks here :D
Post by
HiVolt
Ahh, I see. I'm not sure, but I'm inclined to say that they should. For the same reason that the bystander boys laughing at the girl probably should. For the sake of argument, I'm assuming 'laugh' means a full, enjoyable laugh, as opposed to the awkward 'uh .. he.. he.. *looks away*' type.
I had a hunch that you might say this, and it's mainly in this area that I disagree. When one laughs genuinely(as in not a forced laugh), it is an
involuntary
action caused by whatever stimuli. I don't believe that anyone should have to apologize for laughing(especially when the offense isn't mentioned until after the fact rather than during), just as I don't believe that someone who is epileptic should have to apologize for having a seizure or that someone who has Tourrette Syndrome should apologize for having a tick(read: shouting vulgarities at random intervals- I know that's not the only characteristic of Tourette Syndrome and that it may not even manifest in one who is afflicted by the illness, but it is the most widely known tick). A person can't help it if they find something to be funny and laughs as a result- regardless of the feelings those who may be offended in the near vicinity by that same funny something. Yes, one can refrain from laughing at something they find funny- but they shouldn't be made to feel bad about it if they do as it is a largely involuntary action.
I disagree (in case you were wondering ;)). Is preaching white supremacy and black hate to the white people harmless? It may not be immediately harmful, but I would contend that it harms in the long term. Ahh, but here I would argue that the preaching isn't given the context of satire or parody and is thus irrelevant as an argument to the topic as it isn't done in an attempt to provide humor for anyone involved. This is just a case of general bigotry.
I don't think it's that extreme. I think it's very school-ground. It's the attitude of "I'm going to put you down, and joke around so that people think I'm win". The insecurity / offense relates to the putdown, not the joke itself, but the point was that a joke can be used to put someone down in the first place. I see your point here, and don't deny the truth in it. But, personally, I would imagine a much different scenario playing out. Not in the taking of offense, of course, but the subsequent action of the girl that was called fat(dude getting a black eye, anyone?). Still, that doesn't dampen the offensive effect of the statement when it is directed at the offended party.
However, I maintain that the audience is the key in the examples that you and I each have provided.
Oh, I agree, you do. But then, my point was in relation to not being able to expect an offending remark from them, similarly to friends / colleagues, and we already agreed to disagree here :) Right, I was just wanting to make sure that both of us understand(actually, I know that you understand that, and figured that you'd agree on that note even before I posed the question- it was mainly for others who are reading these posts and trying to discern their own opinions on the matter :)) that frequent evidence carries more weight than infrequent evidence.
Ahh, we're all geeks here :D
Absolutely! We are debating on a Warcraft-centered forum, after all. :D
Post by
Squishalot
Sorry for the delays - stuff to do last night, and didn't get home til past midnight.
Yes, one can refrain from laughing at something they find funny- but they shouldn't be made to feel bad about it if they do as it is a largely involuntary action.
You can argue that it's involuntary, but there are plenty of involuntary things that we can and should apologise for. One can argue that staring at a girl's breasts, lingerie ads, and anything else that stirs a guy's private parts is involuntary, and it's justified from an evolutionary point of view, in a way. At what point do we stop hiding behind the excuse of involuntary actions, and require people to take more conscious control of themselves?
Ahh, but here I would argue that the preaching isn't given the context of satire or parody and is thus irrelevant as an argument to the topic as it isn't done in an attempt to provide humor for anyone involved. This is just a case of general bigotry.
Ah, but I specifically chose it because you didn't mention satire when you talked about bigotry not hurting when it's not directed at the person. So your view is that bigotry doesn't hurt provided that it's an attempt to provide humour for people, and that the person being hurt isn't present at the time the 'joke' is told.
So, we come to the next example:
Guy: "Did you hear what happened the other day? This chick asked me out but I had to put her in her place. I mean, seriously, she's so fat, she generates her own gravitational field."
Guy's friends: "Hahahahaha!"
Again - I contend that it may not hurt immediately, but it has a long-term impact.
But, personally, I would imagine a much different scenario playing out. Not in the taking of offense, of course, but the subsequent action of the girl that was called fat(dude getting a black eye, anyone?).
Heh, it's the insecurity vs security thing. Secure girls would give the guy a black eye. Insecure girls would run off crying.
Absolutely! We are debating on a Warcraft-centered forum, after all. :D
Actually, I think the 'debating on a forum' thing qualifies us as geeks already, notwithstanding the Warcraft component :P
Post by
HiVolt
You can argue that it's involuntary, but there are plenty of involuntary things that we can and should apologise for. One can argue that staring at a girl's breasts, lingerie ads, and anything else that stirs a guy's private parts is involuntary, and it's justified from an evolutionary point of view, in a way. At what point do we stop hiding behind the excuse of involuntary actions, and require people to take more conscious control of themselves? I don't think
staring
at a girl's breasts is a very involuntary thing. Sure, maybe glancing is involuntary, but no one should ever have to apologize for glancing at anyone. And yes, even if it were completely involuntary, it is completely justified by evolution. Still, though, I don't feel that it's an excuse whatsoever to claim involuntary action. I mean, the definition of the word involuntary literally means that you have no control over a certain happenstance. If you have no control, you cannot be expected to apologize for that lack of control (unless that lack of control was brought about by yourself, but then- I don't know many people that laugh at their own jokes... smile, yeah, but not laugh).
Ah, but I specifically chose it because you didn't mention satire when you talked about bigotry not hurting when it's not directed at the person. So your view is that bigotry doesn't hurt provided that it's an attempt to provide humour for people, and that the person being hurt isn't present at the time the 'joke' is told.
So, we come to the next example:
Guy: "Did you hear what happened the other day? This chick asked me out but I had to put her in her place. I mean, seriously, she's so fat, she generates her own gravitational field."
Guy's friends: "Hahahahaha!"
Again - I contend that it may not hurt immediately, but it has a long-term impact. I don't see how this scenario hurts anyone or anything. No one is being directly hurt, so you must mean the indirect impact of the phrase on the audience- perhaps what you're getting at is that it propagates the bigotry to the audience, making them feel that bigotry in general is okay?
Post by
224056
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Asylu
So, we come to the next example:
Guy: "Did you hear what happened the other day? This chick asked me out but I had to put her in her place. I mean, seriously, she's so fat, she generates her own gravitational field."
Guy's friends: "Hahahahaha!"
Again - I contend that it may not hurt immediately, but it has a long-term impact. I don't see how this scenario hurts anyone or anything. No one is being directly hurt, so you must mean the indirect impact of the phrase on the audience- perhaps what you're getting at is that it propagates the bigotry to the audience, making them feel that bigotry in general is okay?
The impact can be, and is, profound. Such bigotry displayed by one person can lead to an entire school/social environment to become toxic, and in some cases lethal, to the object of ridicule. There have been numerous suicides lately of people, young adults especially, most caused by such discrimination. Wither based on size, weight, gender, sexual preference or ethnicity it is not right. No one likes to know that others are making fun of the behind their backs, no one.
To keep in the hypothetical the Guy's friends then tell others who continue to ridicule the Girl, both behind her back and to her face, which leads to a rather large number of possible scenarios. She might find the inner strength enough to make a radical change in her lifestyle that would allow her to gain social recognition through weight loss (in a movie/fantasy world tbh), battle depression throughout the remainder of her teen and young adult life and perhaps begin substance abuse to find acceptance, or the pressure may very well grow to be too much and with no support she may turn to what seems to be the only resort, suicide.
The problem is the fact that making something humorous does not detract from the fact that it is harmful. And by allowing it to continue the younger generation will become even more apathetic to the emotional pain of others. By making fun of another human being you destroy a part of them...and turn yourself into less than a beast.
Post by
HiVolt
So, we come to the next example:
Guy: "Did you hear what happened the other day? This chick asked me out but I had to put her in her place. I mean, seriously, she's so fat, she generates her own gravitational field."
Guy's friends: "Hahahahaha!"
Again - I contend that it may not hurt immediately, but it has a long-term impact. I don't see how this scenario hurts anyone or anything. No one is being directly hurt, so you must mean the indirect impact of the phrase on the audience- perhaps what you're getting at is that it propagates the bigotry to the audience, making them feel that bigotry in general is okay?
The impact can be, and is, profound. Such bigotry displayed by one person can lead to an entire school/social environment to become toxic, and in some cases lethal, to the object of ridicule. There have been numerous suicides lately of people, young adults especially, most caused by such discrimination. Wither based on size, weight, gender, sexual preference or ethnicity it is not right. No one likes to know that others are making fun of the behind their backs, no one.
To keep in the hypothetical the Guy's friends then tell others who continue to ridicule the Girl, both behind her back and to her face, which leads to a rather large number of possible scenarios. She might find the inner strength enough to make a radical change in her lifestyle that would allow her to gain social recognition through weight loss (in a movie/fantasy world tbh), battle depression throughout the remainder of her teen and young adult life and perhaps begin substance abuse to find acceptance, or the pressure may very well grow to be too much and with no support she may turn to what seems to be the only resort, suicide.
The problem is the fact that making something humorous does not detract from the fact that it is harmful. And by allowing it to continue the younger generation will become even more apathetic to the emotional pain of others. By making fun of another human being you destroy a part of them...and turn yourself into less than a beast.
So we are to be babied, then? Told nothing that we don't like to hear? In order to gain self-confidence, one must have that confidence tested, else it means nothing and serves one nothing. Perhaps the medium isn't the best, but then, what would be better or less hurtful? Perhaps the girl's parents would bring it up instead. I wonder if that would be better, to have one's parents not accepting of a physical flaw- or a peer group?
Bigotry exists. Bigotry will likely always exist. Getting upset about it serves nothing because humans by their very nature will continue to segregate themselves, albeit in different ways over the course of time. Social stigmas and taboos will never go away- they will only change forms.
Had I never been teased about my weight as a child, I may have never taken up recreational exercise. Would that have been a bad thing- not necessarily. Would it have been a good thing- still, no, not necessarily. But, that teasing allowed me to overcome my own insecurity about my weight. It allowed me to take a step back from myself and see myself as others do. Being that I'm still overweight(not as badly overweight, but still overweight)- I didn't mind what I saw, and I realized that those who were teasing me only did so to deflect their own shortcomings.
True, not every tale of teasing or bullying ends up so well, and I'm certainly not trying to advocate it. But if people were never told what they don't like to hear- we'd still be in the Dark Ages.
Post by
HoleofArt
The problem is the fact that making something humorous does not detract from the fact that it is harmful. And by allowing it to continue the younger generation will become even more apathetic to the emotional pain of others.
I agree with HiVolt. People are not going to be babied. It won't ever happen. People will always insult others.
"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me", anyone?
I personally view suicide over being insulted as weak-minded. Nothing someone says should be able to drive someone to that. Ever. People just need to realize that what other people think of them is not important. People just need a thicker skin. Half the problems in the world could be solved if people didn't get so butt-hurt over such trivial things.
Post by
DarkOpeth
The problem is the fact that making something humorous does not detract from the fact that it is harmful. And by allowing it to continue the younger generation will become even more apathetic to the emotional pain of others.
I agree with HiVolt. People are not going to be babied. It won't ever happen. People will always insult others.
"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me", anyone?
I personally view suicide over being insulted as weak-minded. Nothing someone says should be able to drive someone to that. Ever. People just need to realize that what other people think of them is not important. People just need a thicker skin. Half the problems in the world could be solved if people didn't get so butt-hurt over such trivial things.
I cannot express my disagreement strongly enough. Yeah I can stand by the statement that some people need to have a thicker skin, but let me tell you something. Most of the kids that commit suicide because of bullying, do so because it is more than one person, and it is very persistent. Life for them is a living hell.
I have a personal angle: my life during middle school, and parts of high school was sh*t. A living nightmare. I, like many kids, stood out because of appearance or likes/dislikes or any of the pathetic trivial reasons people bully one another at that age. I was bullied by a group of people,
fifteen
people in total. I was insulted, my family insulted, I was mocked, made fun of, harassed. I had some of my things destroyed and stolen. At school, during class, in the hallways, at lunch, in the lockeroom, on my cellphone, over the internet. It was completely relentless and went on for months.
Because the bastards were in such a large group, they would cover for each other. They got away with almost EVERYTHING. The things they did get caught for were small, and did not get connected. I will admit, there were times when I really didn't feel like carrying on, if you know what I mean. One act of harassment to another, all day, every day. I had to get my cellphone number changed, twice.
The point is, when the abuse or discrimination gets so systemic and the environment itself becomes so toxic, it is damn hard to keep your head held high. Dont you EVER claim that suicide because of bullying is somehow "weak-minded". There are times when I got close. There are dark depths of the mind that I hope you never reach. You should get to experience it on a level that some of the kids that have committed suicide recently have.
butt-hurt Not the right context, not the right time for that word.
As morbid as this topic is, if you want to look at it in a funnier angle, he is one of my favorite comics. Listen to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oIeLKB0wU8
nd its sad when kids kill themselves, because they really didn't give a chance, but, life is like a movie. If you've sat through more than half of it, and it sucked every minute so far, it probably isn't going to get great right at the very end for you, making it all worthwhile. No one should blame them for walking out early. -Doug Stanhope
Post by
Asylu
So we are to be babied, then? Told nothing that we don't like to hear? In order to gain self-confidence, one must have that confidence tested, else it means nothing and serves one nothing. Perhaps the medium isn't the best, but then, what would be better or less hurtful? Perhaps the girl's parents would bring it up instead. I wonder if that would be better, to have one's parents not accepting of a physical flaw- or a peer group?
Bigotry exists. Bigotry will likely always exist. Getting upset about it serves nothing because humans by their very nature will continue to segregate themselves, albeit in different ways over the course of time. Social stigmas and taboos will never go away- they will only change forms.
Had I never been teased about my weight as a child, I may have never taken up recreational exercise. Would that have been a bad thing- not necessarily. Would it have been a good thing- still, no, not necessarily. But, that teasing allowed me to overcome my own insecurity about my weight. It allowed me to take a step back from myself and see myself as others do. Being that I'm still overweight(not as badly overweight, but still overweight)- I didn't mind what I saw, and I realized that those who were teasing me only did so to deflect their own shortcomings.
True, not every tale of teasing or bullying ends up so well, and I'm certainly not trying to advocate it. But if people were never told what they don't like to hear- we'd still be in the Dark Ages.
And so it is acceptable for people to drive another into despair because they are different? The relentless 'teasing' as you put it can and will lead to violence in one form or another. There is nothing you can say that can begin to justify that kind of treatment. It is unethical. There is also no moral grounds for it. So let's remove the issue of rejection being weight. I want your honest opinion of this scenario.
Girl: Hey, wanna go out some time?
Guy: No way, you f*cking spic! Go jump the border!
Guy's friends: Hahahaha!
Is it right? Or how about this one?
Guy: Man, this wetback actually had the nerve to try and ask me out so I told her to go clean my house and shut up!
Guy's friends: Hahaha! Nice one!
Can you honestly look into your own heart and say that those things are right? No matter the subject ridicule is not right. And if you can defend it then you need to look at your moral and ethical standing and ask yourself if you like who you are.
Post by
HiVolt
And so it is acceptable for people to drive another into despair because they are different? The relentless 'teasing' as you put it can and will lead to violence in one form or another. There is nothing you can say that can begin to justify that kind of treatment. It is unethical. There is also no moral grounds for it. So let's remove the issue of rejection being weight. I want your honest opinion of this scenario.
Girl: Hey, wanna go out some time?
Guy: No way, you f*cking spic! Go jump the border!
Guy's friends: Hahahaha!
Is it right? Or how about this one?
Guy: Man, this wetback actually had the nerve to try and ask me out so I told her to go clean my house and shut up!
Guy's friends: Hahaha! Nice one!
Can you honestly look into your own heart and say that those things are right? No matter the subject ridicule is not right. And if you can defend it then you need to look at your moral and ethical standing and ask yourself if you like who you are.
Where did I say that it was acceptable? Where did I say that it was right? I only said it was inevitable. Tomorrow, a very great number of people will be murdered, more than likely, all across the globe. Does that make it right? Absolutely not. It only makes it inevitable. Of course I don't agree with either scenario you've given, but I'm not going to be upset by them- because I realize that there are ignorant people in this world and there always will be.
I will not lose any sleep at night knowing that someone, somewhere is being bullied or teased or bigoted against. Does that make me a bad person? I don't think it does whatsoever. It only makes me a realist. As I said before I am certainly not trying to advocate bigotry or teasing or bullying- I'm only saying that they will always exist. Getting upset by it serves only to give those who are bigoted against you exactly what they want.
Only in the greater, legal-social context (Jim Crow laws, etc.) should we attempt to remove bigotry, because that is the
only
place in which we may actually be able to remove bigotry altogether. To think that everyday bigotry will go away on its own is naive and shows little understanding of the human species.
Post by
DarkOpeth
Getting upset by it serves only to give those who are bigoted against you exactly what they want.
My god. Shrugging and walking away when someone yells "$%^got" or "emo" or "spic" or "fatass" in the hallway is one thing, but its altogether another when this type of bullying or bigotry is perpetuated towards one person by a group, who are persistent and determined to make that person's life a living hell, and act out this intention using all possible methods of communication including electronic, several times a day.
My point is when the environment gets that bad for someone, with that scope of behavior going on, it is nearly impossible NOT to let it get to you, or to be emotionally or mentally distraught or to be affected. Suggesting this level of bullying is only dependent upon "letting it get to you or not" is very generalizing and it seeks to portray the problem as black and white instead of as complex and systemic as it truly is.
Does that make me a bad person? I don't think it does whatsoever. It only makes me a realist. As I said before I am certainly not trying to advocate bigotry or teasing or bullying- I'm only saying that they will always exist.
Only in the greater, legal-social context (Jim Crow laws, etc.) should we attempt to remove bigotry, because that is the only place in which we may actually be able to remove bigotry altogether. To think that everyday bigotry will go away on its own is naive and shows little understanding of the human species.
Yes, it is a very realistic and rational position to take. I would agree, certainly that there will always (for the foreseeable future) be racism, ignorance and bigotry, and that it is sure as sh*t gonna show in a million different places tomorrow.
I would disagree strongly however, with you argument about it having to do something with the "nature of our species."
I am speaking only in the broadest terms, but for example, consider the laws and societal attitudes of 11th century medieval Europe in comparison to a thousand years later. Compare the roles of men and women, the levels of violence, the difference in religious/scientific discourse and understanding as compared to nowadays.
If a society or culture has a particular view on an issue such as violence, the people within will be shaped and guided by it. Societal mores, rules, attitudes and expectations change slowly over time, but they change for the better.
I believe that the way a person is in terms of how he sees others humans that are different than he is(in terms of race, religion, gender beliefs) has a LOT MORE to do with how he was raised than existence in "the human species".
If a child grows up in a household where both parents are neo-nazi skinheads, it is extremely likely that they will indoctrinate their child into their belief system, with respect to beliefs about race, equality, and political policy etc.
If a child grows up in a household where both parents are mixed-race and they place an importance on teaching diversity, understanding, tolerance and respect, it will affect his belief structure a hell of a lot more than just being human is species.
If they both kids end up going to the same high-school, how do you think they will each react when they run into a muslim? A jew? A racial minority?
And what do they think to themselves when they see this other person
? I would say the kid with neo-nazi parents will react and percieve much more differently than the other child raised in a much more egalitarian household. Its likely that the Skinheads' child will have larger tendency to be an #$%^&*!, a racist, a bigot. etc, and
its got NOTHING to do with his DNA or his place in the Taxonomy and species and everything to do with how he was raised, with which values and in which society.
For our species, our intelligence, and therefore our ability to reason, to think and to feel emotions such as compassion, give us the ability to change. Change in the way we mentally perceive things. We have the power to change our society, it is not on a fixed or linear path, and it certainly isnt an immutable concept.
Maybe, the parents of the local bully should have taught him that just because the kid next to him likes guys instead or has a different skin color, gives the bully no right to pick on him, and gives that kid next to him no right pick on the bully either. Maybe they should have taught him better values. If every parent were to do that, over time, societal outlooks on such things would change, and eventually, because these values would become a very part of societal fabric, bigotry, racism, elitism and other things like that would dissapear.
"You say that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
Post by
HiVolt
My god. Shrugging and walking away when someone yells "$%^got" or "emo" or "spic" or "fatass" in the hallway is one thing, but its altogether another when this type of bullying or bigotry is perpetuated towards one person by a group, who are persistent and determined to make that person's life a living hell, and act out this intention using all possible methods of communication including electronic, several times a day.
My point is when the environment gets that bad for someone, with that scope of behavior going on, it is nearly impossible NOT to let it get to you, or to be emotionally or mentally distraught or to be affected. Suggesting this level of bullying is only dependent upon "letting it get to you or not" is very generalizing and it seeks to portray the problem as black and white instead of as complex and systemic as it truly is.
Yes, I understand what you mean, and I didn't want to come across as implying that these situations are "black and white", because nothing is "black and white". I understand this. However, as confirmed earlier in the thread, infrequent evidence carries less weight than frequent evidence. Most cases of bullying and bigotry likely don't involve large groups of people trying to make a single person's life a living hell. Of course, also as stated earlier, these infrequent evidences should not be thrown out, but should not be taken in as evidences greater than the frequent.
Yes, it is a very realistic and rational position to take. I would agree, certainly that there will always (for the foreseeable future) be racism, ignorance and bigotry, and that it is sure as sh*t gonna show in a million different places tomorrow.
I would disagree strongly however, with you argument about it having to do something with the "nature of our species."
I am speaking only in the broadest terms, but for example, consider the laws and societal attitudes of 11th century medieval Europe in comparison to a thousand years later. Compare the roles of men and women, the levels of violence, the difference in religious/scientific discourse and understanding as compared to nowadays.
If a society or culture has a particular view on an issue such as violence, the people within will be shaped and guided by it. Societal mores, rules, attitudes and expectations change slowly over time, but they change for the better.
I believe that the way a person is in terms of how he sees others humans that are different than he is(in terms of race, religion, gender beliefs) has a LOT MORE to do with how he was raised than existence in "the human species".
If a child grows up in a household where both parents are neo-nazi skinheads, it is extremely likely that they will indoctrinate their child into their belief system, with respect to beliefs about race, equality, and political policy etc.
If a child grows up in a household where both parents are mixed-race and they place an importance on teaching diversity, understanding, tolerance and respect, it will affect his belief structure a hell of a lot more than just being human is species.
If they both kids end up going to the same high-school, how do you think they will each react when they run into a muslim? A jew? A racial minority?
And what do they think to themselves when they see this other person
? I would say the kid with neo-nazi parents will react and percieve much more differently than the other child raised in a much more egalitarian household. Its likely that the Skinheads' child will have larger tendency to be an #$%^&*!, a racist, a bigot. etc, and
its got NOTHING to do with his DNA or his place in the Taxonomy and species and everything to do with how he was raised, with which values and in which society.
For our species, our intelligence, and therefore our ability to reason, to think and to feel emotions such as compassion, give us the ability to change. Change in the way we mentally perceive things. We have the power to change our society, it is not on a fixed or linear path, and it certainly isnt an immutable concept.
Maybe, the parents of the local bully should have taught him that just because the kid next to him likes guys instead or has a different skin color, gives the bully no right to pick on him, and gives that kid next to him no right pick on the bully either. Maybe they should have taught him better values. If every parent were to do that, over time, societal outlooks on such things would change, and eventually, because these values would become a very part of societal fabric, bigotry, racism, elitism and other things like that would dissapear.
"You say that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
Ahh, the age-old "Nature vs. Nurture" argument of psychology. I knew this would likely be brought up. You do have a point. If one is nurtured to not be bigoted, they will not be. However, every single human being is born to fear what is unfamiliar. This is the deepest root of bigotry and prejudice. As such, bigotry will never cease to exist within the human species- until we are able to evolve it out of our DNA.
Bigotry absolutely has to do with inherited traits. We have the power to nurture it out of us, but many don't exercise what power they have in all aspects of life. Does that mean they shouldn't try? Absolutely not. Does it mean they should? If the cause is good, then yes(this case being that it is good).
You can claim nurture all you want, but the fact remains- we naturally fear what we do not know. That is the absolute core of bigotry.
Post by
Asylu
As such, bigotry will never cease to exist within the human species- until we are able to evolve it out of our DNA.
I think it's time to evolve then.
But that would just be silly, huh? Trying to eliminate ignorance with selective breeding? It is not a genetic trait. It is a social one. The only thing that would work is teaching morals and ethics to children in the home.
And that will not happen.
Because people would have to be responsible for the actions of both themselves and their offspring, and no one wants that.
Post by
HiVolt
I think it's time to evolve then.
But that would just be silly, huh? Trying to eliminate ignorance with selective breeding? It is not a genetic trait. It is a social one. The only thing that would work is teaching morals and ethics to children in the home.
And that will not happen.
Because people would have to be responsible for the actions of both themselves and their offspring, and no one wants that.
Selective breeding would, of course, be ridiculous. The only way to eliminate bigotry,
it would seem
, would be to eliminate the unknown as early as possible.
But then, how could one possibly eliminate all unknowns? How could one attempt to guess what will be prejudiced against in the next generation?
Try as you might- it is indeed a very noble cause, and one that I fully support. But, be realistic. Do you honestly think that there will one day be a world in which no human being hates another for some petty reason?
Post by
204878
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Asylu
Well, teaching
ethics
is the start. But you would have to do that from the home. You can eliminate the fear of the unknown through exposure to variety and new experiences. It would take effort on the part of the people to grow, and I realize that people do not want change, that leaving the comfort zone is bad to them. But the best way to teach is to make the punishment for the social unwanted behavior to be harsh. If a small child bites another person and are then punished properly, not beaten but rather disciplined and shown what it feels like is that child going to do it again?
Most likely, and if they find that
every time
they bite they are punished in the same way they will stop biting.
We have to, as a society, make bigotry, racism, or what ever you wish to label it, such a crime that much like murder, it is socially and legally unacceptable. Or we will not get the chance to see our species evolve, because we will self-annihilate.
Post by
561619
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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