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So how about making WoW hard again?
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Post by
qwertydood
If it isn't difficult, then why can some players do H LK 25m without the buff, and others can't do it with the buff? There's obviously some form of difficulty if events like these happen.
Because they have better gear, better raid composition, or simply get lucky on one attempt.
Better gear? Better raid composition? Those don't even factor into it.
If you're on H LK, that means you're raid has everything it needs, and that your in 277 gear, if not mostly full BiS.
It's not like players who killed H LK had a magical stash of gear that allowed them to do more.
Thats how progression works, yes. You get better gear with each boss killed, which allows you to take on the next boss, which requires more DPS (or HPS, Avoidance, HP, etc). You are absolutely correct, players who killed H LK went through the progression faster be (A:) More time on their hands, (B:)
ecause they hav
If you're 11/12 H, you're in one of those "top guilds" and have everything necessary to kill H LK.. and yet.. they don't. That is because it is
difficult
and
hard
. If you're 11/12 H and can't kill LK (and have the appropriate gear), its probably because some lags and screws up, there's someone who isn't quite geared enough to do the fight, someone doesn't understand the fight mechanics and/or doesn't know how to properly operate a keyboard, or get unlucky with some of the random aspects of the fight.
Out of curiosity, qwerty, have you ever attempted H LK? If not, then how are you able to judge whether it's difficult or not? Even if you haven't, just taking a look at all the guilds stuck at 11/12 should tell you something, let alone any guild that has ever talked about the fight points out how challenging it was.
Ha! Of course not, I didn't have enough free time to be able to sufficiently gear my characters, and haven't played WoW in the past 2 months.. I have, however, seen the fight from many points of view, and I can tell you right now that I could just as easily, at any point, jump in and take over for any of them and be able to do my rotation at the right enemies while avoiding damage as much as possible. In fact, with sufficient explanation of what keys to press, anyone could.
I apologize if you feel insulted because the video game you play doesn't require nearly as much skill as you'd like to think. Fact is, its one of the easiest games that is popular nowadays.
Post by
580100
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
qwertydood
Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded.
Ah, but getting WoW players to nerdrage because they refuse to accept the game is flawed never gets old ;)
Post by
HoleofArt
Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded.
Ah, but getting WoW players to nerdrage because they refuse to accept the game is flawed never gets old ;)
Except your argument is complete bull*!@#.
Come back when you have something better than:
If you're 11/12 H and can't kill LK (and have the appropriate gear), its probably because some lags and screws up, there's someone who isn't quite geared enough to do the fight, someone doesn't understand the fight mechanics and/or doesn't know how to properly operate a keyboard, or get unlucky with some of the random aspects of the fight.
If your guild is getting legitimate attempts in, all those players have been removed from the raid a long time ago. You wouldn't know that, but that's how it works. Players like that don't get to see H LK progression, sorry.
Thats how progression works, yes. You get better gear with each boss killed, which allows you to take on the next boss, which requires more DPS (or HPS, Avoidance, HP, etc).
This is idiotic. People at 11/12H 25m are all wearing
the exact same level of gear
and yet some guilds can down H LK, and others cannot. Therefore, gear is
not
a factor in these circumstances.
Post by
lonewarrior
too all the reference between heroic LK and normal, let me just post my simple observation based on my server.
Guilds that were able to kill normal LK eventually did it in Hardmode as well. The additional mechanics involved didn't prove to be a hindrance of ability. It's really was just a numbers game.
When the stats on gear made it sustainable to do it..they did.
Otherwise I see many players unable to do normal LK, even though the gear stats say they can do it. To me hardmode was just a bone to throw out there to keep top players interested. I'm of the opinion that every boss should have just one mode...either your good enough to get the boss down or you go back to lower raids and improve...and that's the crux of this whole argument...because of the way the raid progression is currently set up...most players can't find anywhere else to improve.
So if they have the gear why can't they kill it? And if it's pure RNG as you say then why do the best guilds consistently meet with success tier after tier? Why can the best guilds kill the LK on heroic with no buff and the ones that aren't so good can't do it at 30% even with the same composition and gear even after so many attempts? Why do the best guilds try to recruit the best players if it's nothing but chance and comp that makes them succeed?
because of the way the raid progression is currently set up...most players can't find anywhere else to improve.
Most? Your post makes it sound like a ton of people have H LK down because they could get regular. That isn't so. If that was true, then why are so many guilds stuck (and disbanding) at 11/12H?
Also, I think there's only 360 something guilds with him killed. That's such a ridiculously small amount of people.
First off LK should be head and shoulder above all other bosses. The last boss of any raid should be as such.
Second I never said a ton...my post stated that those who were able to do LK normal eventually were able to do LK Hard.
The reason guilds quit at 11/12H or why other players completely fail on hardmode ? ....not sure I am qualified to answer that so I put that question to one of the top players(6900+GS) in one of the top guilds on US servers.
I'll paraphrase pretty much the 2 top reasons he conveyed to me.
A: Boredom. The repetitive nature of running and re-running normal and Heroic up to him just to acquire the gear for the entire raid group to withstand what Hardmode LK throws at you. The mechanics of killing him were never the issue. For some repeating the steps they did to kill him on normal 10/25 and the time need to get a 10/25 raid party geared again just to kill him on hard mode, just for better gear lost its appeal. If 2 or 3 members of the core raiding group stopped raiding and the guild didn't have the size to withstand that lose...the whole core pretty much loses interest because it is nearly impossible to immediately replace those players nor are they inclined to level others.
Something that is tentatively going to be corrected and implemented in Cata..which is to make heroics immediately available.
B. Cohesion. The commitment to stay together through wipes to develop tactics. Top guilds have people who see it as a mission to defeat a boss. They bring their talents to bare on what ever hardmode offers up and overcome them as a unit and no one individual is greater then the unit.
Why other players fail even with sufficient gear and a 30% buff? ....arrogant wannabes...who think it's everyone else fault as to why they haven't done it yet. He said..look around and see how many so call next leet guilds come and go. If you look on the rosters, you usually see the same cast of players constantly revamping. Usually their disposition and/or reputations gets them declines on applications to the top guilds so they think they can make their own. Of course what usually happens is they fail and blame everyone but themselves. To do any top raid, you need cohesion and sound leadership. Player need to be familiar with each other. Tactics have to be devised in unison. Heroic raids have additional mechanics that these fly by night guilds never stay together long enough to build that cohesion and defeat the bosses. He also said quite of few of those you see now 11/12H(on our server) paid for runs from his guild and or downed LK on normal because they joined his guilds GDKP runs. So the achievements can be deceptive.
So there you go....I pretty much surmised the same thing.
Post by
93865
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
93865
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
lonewarrior
You are using the word "surmised" improperly.
Second I never said a ton...my post stated that those who were able to do LK normal eventually were able to do LK Hard.
Not true. A lot of players overcome LK normal but never overcome HLK25 because it's so much harder.
The reason guilds quit at 11/12H or why other players completely fail on hardmode ? ....not sure I am qualified to answer that so I put that question to one of the top players(6900+GS) in one of the top guilds on US servers.
The opinion of one unnamed individual is not the end-all, be-all, all the more so because by your own admission you don't have a suitable frame of reference to interpret the issue.
The fact you actually think Gearscore is a meaningful measure of authoritativeness demonstrates how limited your comprehension of raiding in general is, especially since, as has been said
People at 11/12H 25m are all wearing the exact same level of gear and yet some guilds can down H LK, and others cannot. Therefore, gear is not a factor in these circumstances.
So why cite Badscore as a measure of worth?
Qwertydood, Lonewarrior - what makes you think your understanding of the nature of skill and progression is correct given you haven't done the hardest encounters nor raided with the best guild nor even have any real knowledge of how they work?
Asstu...sorry, I mean Aestu...you come across as someone who waits only to talk rather then listen to what is being said.
Yes true....the top guilds that did LK normal have all done LK Heroic. Guilds=players
If I haven't stated the difference between top guilds and pug players...then let me now. This thread was about pugs anyway how the heck did it get to heroic 25 LK.
You put yourself up for opinion on this forum and seem put off that someone better then you should pass along his insight...which all it was..I never posted It as be-all end-all...those are your words and it seems your position on everything you post. I posted his gear score to show that he has completed every mode on every boss in the game and possesses the gear to prove it and give some weight to what he had to say...that is all you need to convey from that...you seem intimidated by that number. I didn't offer my own opinion on heroic LK because my guild fell into the boredom trap that he mentioned, a few of my core players have stopped playing ...all of which was never the crux of this thread in the first place.
A a guild leader of the same casual raiding guild for 3 years, I can surmise quite a bit. We don't move nearly as fast as superb raiding guilds but many of my former members have gone on to the top guilds and meet their expectations. We may not get there as fast as the top raiding guilds but we always manage to progress threw the same corridors they do and in fact hated when they brought out new contents and dismiss previous contents or the ICC buff. We enjoyed the steady progression, because we enjoyed each other.
My constant interaction with guild members and other GM's allows me insight to what brings success and failure to any raid. Not downing Hardmode LK doesn't dismiss my opinion or my insight. Raiding is raiding at any level. Bosses are just scripted fights. You have no greater ability to down a boss over anyone else. The only difference is either you have the time and/or the experience and the desire to overcome the obstacle. As I stated many pages ago...there should be no reason any player who commits themselves to contents should not be able to achieve those goals unless they are plain inept or are not given the chance to hone their talents.
Unlike you Aestu, I chose humility in expressing my opinion...so who the heck are you to validate your understanding of this game over anyone else.
The thread if you can recall after 14 pages was making the game harder and the OP's position that too many players fail in pugs ICC. "Retarded players" I think he called them. Which can be safely translated as players who can't follow the script. We were debating why this was. Let's keep it there.
one other thing.. Aestu
You and I have been on the same side for pretty much of this topic ..but you seem to want to make any enemy of everyone...if this is your disposition in raids..lord help your raid partners.
My side is to make raiding harder to cut away the lazy players and leave a solid core of seasoned players to reach lofty goals and strengthen raiding overall..I want everyone to be good ...you seem to want to have LK's throne all to yourself. Lighten up.
Post by
93865
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
HoleofArt
You have no greater ability to down a boss over anyone else. The only difference is either you have the time and/or the experience and the desire to overcome the obstacle. As I stated many pages ago...there should be no reason any player who commits themselves to contents should not be able to achieve those goals unless they are plain inept or are not given the chance to hone their talents.
Except not.
Some people are simply better than others. People claimed that WoW cannot be hard, and that's where H 25m Lich King says, "Hi mother!@#$ers. Prepare to wipe for the next month or two." You then claimed that it was because they had better gear (impossible) or that it was due to bad players (also impossible if it was legitimate progression). You also stated that if people were to achieve 25m LK, that they could get H LK down. I call bull^&*!, because if this was true,
then every guild that managed to kill regular 25m LK wouldn't be getting stuck at 11/12 H 25m or even less
. And many, many do.
tl;dr
H 25m LK is the hardest encounter in the game. It is hard. It is not easy. This game has easy aspects, but to be at the top, it is not easy. There is a difference in skill between people, just like everything - no matter how minor, someone will always be better than you and worse than you.
Some aspects of this game do require skill to complete. H LK 25m just happens to be the perfect example.
Post by
93865
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
HoleofArt
Is it?
I see it. Sorry. Seemed to me like you were agreeing with qwertydood's logic, but you aren't. I apologize.
I'll take another read over. Either way, I chose that snippet specifically because I didn't agree with it, and those were my reasons why.
Post by
lonewarrior
I never took up Forum Posting 101 in school. :P
I try my best to convey my thoughts in the smallest space. Doesn't always come out clear..but ask me to expand and I will.
Post by
lonewarrior
You also stated that if people were to achieve 25m LK, that they could get H LK down. I call bull^&*!, because if this was true, then every guild that managed to kill regular 25m LK wouldn't be getting stuck at 11/12 H 25m or even less. And many, many do.
Look...I think it's safe to assume that there is a jump in difficulty from the first six boss to PP and the next qtrs...again to Sindragosa and a considerable leap to LK. As it should be.
Now on my server the top guilds progress at a faster rate then most other guilds.
These guilds could keep pounding at bosses over and over again in the same week, until they devise the strategy to down them. This is of course always lead to better gear/raid progression. Now using my guild as an example..the RL structure of my members had it that if we hit a wall, that was pretty much it for the week. We usually didn't go back again till the following week or even the one after. Obviously progression is going to be much slower. Eventually though we get to where we want to go.
Now time isn't always your friend in this game. Trying to keep 10/25 players consistently together is no small task. Now imagine try to repeat all those steps in heroics, with COD2 and summer and boredom cutting into attendance. It is no small surprise that some guilds are stuck at 11/12heroic(which should still be taken as quite an achievement).
Like I said..if some player/guild has the wherewithal to kill LK in all normal modes and even 10 heroic...what obstacle do you think remains for that same player/guild outside of gear threshold to down him on Heroic25!. The only think missing would be persistent opportunity.
What the OP was QQing about was that players supposedly well above the gear threshold who were failing on even the simplest fights. There are varying answers as to why and how to correct that problem and that's what we have been discussing.
Post by
qwertydood
Out of curiosity, how do you define one player as "more skilled" or "better" than another one?
They do their rotation better? How can you do a set of keystrokes "better" with a GCD involved?
They don't mess up on fights? That's not difficult by any means.
They have better gear? You can get decent gear even if you are terrible as long as you play the game enough.
They adapt during fights? Right, because when a healer dies on HLK25, someone can just change how they do the fight and cover for them.
Some please explain, I actually do not understand.
Post by
HoleofArt
How they measure up against others of similar gear and class. If I see two Hunters around 6300 GS, and one is doing far better than the other, you can clearly tell which is the better Hunter.
Not messing up on fights actually does require skill - otherwise everything could be PuGed. Skill is a fairly broad term. You could even go so far as to say synergy requires skill if you wanted to.
Adapting is also required. Dispeller insta-gibbed for whatever reason? Fix it. Having to choose who to Battle Rez on a close fight, DPS being able to control their DPS on certain things (think Frost Tombs on H Sindragosa) like knowing when to slow down, or when burst is required, Healers knowing when to pre-bubble or HoT and learning where their heals will best be needed, Tanks knowing how to manage threat/adds, and being able to react should another tank die, etc.
The list goes on of factors of "skill", but it's truly too broad a term to define by one thing - especially narrow subjects like you listed.
Humans are always better critiques of others then themselves, which is a fact. Once you know what to look for in a bad player, it isn't hard to pick them out. Knowing if you yourself is bad? Much harder to do, but in end-game content, it becomes easier as you can compare yourself to some of the better skilled players.
Post by
44284
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
lonewarrior
I don't think there is one single way to define a good player.
It would be easier for me to define a bad player. But I will try.
A good player improves after each attempt.
A bad player is static in progress.
A good player avoids death even at the expense of DPS.
A bad player dies because he is single minded in his role. "I'm dps I fight...healers heal me".
A good player is prepared with all the knowledge available...he just needs the experience.
A bad players constantly asks "what does this boss do ?" or "OMG..that boss always silences me when I'm trying to heal and the tank ends up dying...OMG"
A good player knows how to keep his wits about him and reset himself should things get out of hand for a bit.
A bad player will continue to dps after someone has pulled the boss away from the tank.
A good player will find away to avoid death should someone fail to interrupt a cast from a boss.
A bad player will die because of it.
Combine these few with the obvious like proper gear/enchants/gems.
Understanding their class and getting the most out of their abilities.
A poor rotation will have long global cool downs a good one shorter.
We could also use the bottom line and say Killed Bosses. Unless it is hidden somewhere I can't find, I don't think Blizz list the attempts to Success ratio on Dungeon raid boss. Which would give a more telling story of how successful someone really is.
I'm sure there are a zillion ways to define it..but those are my inputs.
Post by
qwertydood
A skilled player is one who knows his rotations, knows his cooldowns, knows how to itemize, gem, and enchant, and can either execute the boss mechanics, or learns them relatively quickly.
(I'm not ignoring the rest of your post, just cutting it down)
Based on what you've said, it doesn't sound at all that difficult to be a successful WoW player. I think its safe to say that this game is relatively easy.
Post by
93865
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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