This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
Beta
Is it fair to use PvE gear in PvP?
Return to board index
Post by
Kiriela
To sum up. Skill > Shadowmourne.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Dontain#p/u/0/XdDxr9Zgss8
3:38
Fury war with dual wrathful goes up against DK with shadowmourne. Rape ensues.
Post by
sfagias
To sum up. Skill > Shadowmourne.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Dontain#p/u/0/XdDxr9Zgss8
3:38
Fury war with dual wrathful goes up against DK with shadowmourne. Rape ensues.
-.- his opponent is actually a warrior too, which kinda shows skill>gear anyway since it is the same class.
But that guy is kinda arrogant :P I mean, he seriously gets too into the game... Brags about his crits on clothies that probably have terribad gear too. :P he got a stiffy
OT: a skilled shadowmourne weilder has advantage over people that do not have it. Nothing wrong with it imo, since he put all the effort to get it he can swing it on any face he wants to, be it the Lich King in PvE or any random PvPer. He has the right to do so and it is not Blizzard's mistake.
Do you want to dominate PvP? If yes, then do it any way you think you should. Don't QQ and quit after getting pwned by someone with a better weapon than you... Go do some PvE, get that weapon and sack up. In the meanwhile work on your PvP gear too. If you care that much toQQ about it in forums I guess you should probably try that method first. It works.
Post by
682479
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
688014
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
TheMediator
DURRRR DURRRR DURRRR DURRRR DURRRR DURRRR DURRRR
This is what your post sounds like to me you mouth breathing retard. You are exactly the sort of retard that blizzard has to stick in poop sock rewards for, to make feel special, because if things were actually fairly even, you would suck so terribly badly.
Post by
Monjaru
Fixed that for you. "Skill>Gear" has absolutely nothing to do with this thread, it shouldnt even be making an elusive appearance. The point is that Shadowmourne gives an unfair advantage in arena because it isnt accessible to everyone. And if you argue the point that 'you should put in more effort then you can get it too' then think about the fact that casters cant ever get access to it even if they put in twice as much effort. That is an unfair advantage.
It's not an unfair advantage because in order for it to make a real difference in arena, a hardcore PvPer has to go out of their way to do PvE in order to obtain it. If a pure PvE player has it and steps into arena, they get slaughtered anyway. If a pure PvP player has it, it's because they put in a lot of extra effort and deserve whatever boost to their arena efficiency they get.
Also, just FYI, even in the hands of a great PvPer, Shadowmourne doesn't at all grant an instant (or even expected) win. They still have to play hard, coordinate well with their team, and use their CDs as wisely as they know how to. It just gives them more leeway in a close match, which is hardly "unfair".
And, if you hadn't noticed, casters don't really need a legendary weapon to compete in PvP. I doubt people would complain if they
did
get one, but it's really not necessary.
Post by
688014
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
sfagias
@ Gotyouall, if any shadowmourne weilder has an advantage then explain to me please how that warrior nuked that shadowmourne wielding warrior so easily? It gives an advantage, but to some extent. It does not mean that if you have a shadowmourne it is an instant win.
@ TheMediator, I did not insult you in anyway, and I find your response a useless personal attack after you realised you have no arguments to counter mine. No, I do not need stupid rewards to make me feel special because it.is.just.a.game. A game that has one main aspect:PvE, noone can deny this atm... they are constantly working on new raids,dungeons etc etc. And also has a PvP element as people before me have said. You are supposed to do both, PvE and PvP. That is what they want people to do while playing their game. If you do not do either one, you miss out on the game.
If things were fairly even? Nothing will be fairly even ever... PvE items are the last things that make things uneven. You have OP classes every patch and OP arena combos. At least high end PvE weapons are only for the last arena season. Before that, you can buy PvE-equivilant weapons for PvP if you are doing arenas. I agree that Skillmourne gives a certain amount of advantage over someone that does not have it, but it does not surpass the opponent's class mechanics and skill.
Post by
TheMediator
Gotyouall, come on dude, everyone can roll a class that can use a shadowmourne. Its totally fair and stuff to have some classes have items that are higher itemlevel than others, durr. Get with the times. Also, dude, skill > gear, so pro, shadowmourne is like, fair n stuff. Yea bro?
----------
In chess, a single pawn won't make much a difference, until you've got two players who are both highly skilled and after a long intense game, having that pawn can ultimately fundamentally alter the final outcome. Having any advantage gives you an advantage (hopefully that seems straightforward enough), and if that advantage isn't accessible enough to both sides, then the "fairness" is questionable. Sadly, even in the most clear terms, people still won't get it.
I agree that Skillmourne gives a certain amount of advantage over someone that does not have it, but it does not surpass the opponent's class mechanics and skill.
True. But, it compounds class and skill imbalances even further.
The reason why I insulted you is because you said skill > gear again, and I think it has been said a least 5 times in this thread that although you can overcome a disadvantage, that disadvantage is still there regardless.
Post by
682479
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
688014
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monjaru
No, like I said before, it is an unfair advantage because not everyone can get it (not enough fragments for everyone in the guild, for example, and most classes just can't use it full stop). Thats why its unfair, it has nothing to do with effort.
If anything, that furthers my point. If they are really as sparce as you say, it means that that PvPer not only delved into an entirely different part of the game in order to improve their chances of success in PvP, but they also overcame those participating in PvE
for
PvE.
If an actual PvPer jumped through all of the hoops they no doubt did to obtain a Shadowmourne, then they deserve whatever minor advantage they get for it. The fact not everyone can have one isn't fair, but the advantage it actually gives in PvP is; considering the latter is the only part relevant to this discussion, your argument is irrelevant.
I never, ever said this was the case. I said that it gave an advantage, which it does, in the same way that someone in wrathful gear has an advantage over someone in relentless gear, despite the fact that the relentless guy might be a pro - the wrathful guy will still have an advantage over him. 'Advantage' has nothing to do with skill.
Quotes make a lot more sense when read in context.
Regardless, I'm not arguing that it doesn't give an advantage, only that their is nothing
unfair
about the advantage it gives.
I highly doubt you will be able to convince me that Shadowmourne doesnt give an advantage in PvP. It does. And if you admit that it gives an advantage, then how do you call it fair that some people actually weren't able to get Shadowmourne for reasons I just stated? The answer? It isnt fair.
See above for explanation. If you still don't understand the difference between being unfair to players as a whole, and being unfair to PvPers specifically, then I'm afraid I can't help until you do.
Post by
688014
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
TheMediator
Regardless, I'm not arguing that it doesn't give an advantage, only that their is nothing unfair about the advantage it gives.
There's technically nothing unfair with poisoning someone before a boxing match, or more relevant to world of warcraft, exploiting to gain some sort of an advantage in the arena, because technically both sides could do it, but at some point you have to draw a line and say "this is within the normal scope of what a PvPer should be doing", and I don't think spending days of played time raiding is within the normal scope of what a PvPer would be expected to do.
Post by
Monjaru
I just cannot see how this follows at all. If not everyone can have one, how is the advantage it gives in PvP fair?
Because having it doesn't necessarily alter the outcome of a match. It's not enough of an advantage to automatically change the outcome of any given match. In a game as heavily dependant on RNG as WoW, even if two people with the same race/class/gear/skill/everything, one of them upgrading to Shadowmourne doesn't mean they'll win any more or less. Just as there is a degree of luck in any one person getting it in the first place, there is a similar degree when deciding the outcome of a match.
I repeat: it gives an advantage. This advantage is not unfair.
Also I did not take your quote out of context at all, I dont know what you mean. You said that 'Shadowmourne doesnt mean a win, they still have to play well or they will lose'. That to me sounds an awful lot like the 'skill > gear' argument, which I've already said has no place at all in this thread.
I understand that you don't know what I mean. You're taking the quote out of context because you read it, took it at face value, then proceeded to ignore the following sentences that made the statement relevant.
To recap it, since you obviously failed to read and/or understand it: Shadowmourne doesn't ensure a win. A player on a team, wielding SM, still needs to play at the top of his/her game to succeed. As such, having the advantage is not unfair. If having SM automically granted you a win or allowed you to win without thinking about it, that would be unfair. But that's not what it does; all having SM does is gives you slightly more leeway in how many times you have to hit a person to kill them/put pressure on them or their healer.
You have said several times that Shadowmourne gives an advantage, so I trust I dont need to argue that any longer. But somehow you still think it's a fair advantage to have? This doesnt make sense. If not everyone can get it, it can't be fair to use it in PvP where players are pitted directly against each other. It would be like if mages suddenly received a legendary trinket which was class-specific to them - even if it was hard to get, would it be fair to use that in PvP, bearing in mind no other class has access to it?
You seem to be under the impression that all advantages are inherently unfair, which is far from the truth.
Just out of curiosity, assuming you wish to prove me wrong; what would you consider a fair advantage?
Post by
688014
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
sfagias
Ceer, it's called a rhetorical question.
Gotyouall. Mate you don't get what I am trying to say. Skillmourne does give an advantage, but that advantage is within the game, it is not unfair to use what you have gained. It is accessible to any axe-weilder in the game. If that guy managed to get it, then it is within his rights to use it as he wants. If you get a PvE geared warrior with shadowmourne that gets blitzed by a full wrathfull dude, you can't say it is unfair because the warrior had no access to PvP gear... I know, PvP gear is easier to get, but the same rules apply. He does not want to do arenas and therefore he has no wrathfull gear, yet he gets destroyed in BGs. If you do not do one or another aspect of the game you get gimped one way or the other.
@ Mediator. Well, yeah but what I said still stands even if a trillion people have said it before me. And it is unfair poisoning someone before a boxing match. It is a fellony. You don't exploit the game in order to get shadowmourne. You just go with your guild in 25s, do several quests and prey to the RNG gods to make the shadowfrosts to drop fast. Once you get through all that, it is your choice to continue PvEing or just PvP.
In a chess game both sides have equal pawns. It is like asking to get instant lvl 80s fully stocked with the best gear ingame and then competing with eachother on equal grounds. Even then though, certain class mechanics will still give an advantage over other classes. the whole rock, paper, scissors argument. Imho I don't think the game would be fun like that for long.
Post by
452949
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
688014
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
TheMediator
And it is unfair poisoning someone before a boxing match. It is a fellony.
Risk vs reward. If someone is willing to take that risk, I don't know why you have to take that win away from them by saying it is "unfair" that they poisoned their opponent.
And yes, if you had shadowmourne on the arena tournament server, that would be exploiting. The only difference between arena servers and live servers is that blizzard has yet to ban them on live servers not because they think that its fair but... you know, they don't want a QQ storm on them, so they'd rather look the other way. I'm fairly sure that if you break a rule in a sport, you still broke the rule, even if the ref didn't see it or doesn't care to see it for various reasons.
Post Reply
This topic is locked. You cannot post a reply.