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Is it fair to use PvE gear in PvP?
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Post by
688014
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Post by
105944
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Post by
688014
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Post by
Synectics
but 36 were wearing PvE
PvE... what? Full PvE gear? Or just a trinket?
I've used the PvP Medallion in PvE while tanking, back when Resilience lowered your chance to be crit. So what?
Post by
Monjaru
Monjaru, you're still saying 'Shadowmourne isnt gamebreaking therefore it doesnt matter', but it does help (it doesnt matter how much it helps) in a small way, in the same way that wrathful gear helps over relentless gear. Just answer me this question: If this was an advantage which only a handful of people could get, would it be fair for them to use it in arena? The concept of an advatnage is still there, so it doesnt matter how small it is - technically it shouldnt be allowed.
No, it doesn't help in the same way wrathful helps versus relentless; it helps in the same way that 5/5 wrathful helps against 4/5 wrathful and 1/5 relentless. Again I will say: (one of) the reason(s) you don't understand the argument is because you're blowing the value of having SM over the next-best thing WAY out of proportion.
Also, if you're tired of repeating points, try reading the counter-points I've given to each and every one of them and you'd realize all of your "points" are irrelevant or wrong and you wouldn't have to type them out. Ever. Again. :)
Lastly - Malghanis, this is why I dont take your posts seriously:you fail to address any of the opposing points of view besides your very general and extremely bad argument that "advantages are unfair."
Players of World of Warcraft, meet Gotyouall <Lord of Irony>. For stunning, unmatched fits of the most ironic stuff Azeroth has ever seen. Congrats to you, Gotyouall. All those crummy <Kingslayer>s got nothing on you for impressive titles.
Maybe after this post you lot will finally stop thinking thats what I'm saying and we can move on.
Funny how that's what I told you in my last post; yet, instead of moving on and accepting you were wrong, you ignored the point and repeated yours (again).
That
is why I can't take
your
posts seriously.
Also, though I know goshad can handle this on his own, I have to say something about this:
I want you to actually discuss this point youself without using any quotes. In your reply you repied to it by saying 'you're wrong' and then carpet-bombed it with useless quotes.
The only reason you could possibly say they were useless is if you either didn't read them at all (likely) or you still, still, STILL aren't ready to admit that you're wrong (more likely).
What would you call that? a 'dodge'?
No. I would, however, call the fact that the number of points (in my argument alone) you've left unanswered has doubled from my last post
a dodge
the biggest avoidance streak I've ever seen on these forums. And that's saying something.
Reply to this point now, without using any quotes. I want to hear what you yourself actually say, I want to hear the actual arguments of the great goshadstep2lose, not my own quotes used as filler.
The only time he used quotes from you were in answer to your challenge that you had never said a particular thing. And he proved you wrong by showing you precisely where (and there were quite a few bits of evidence) you said exactly what you said you didn't say.
tl;dr - You contradict yourself. A lot.
Post by
105944
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Post by
368348
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105944
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Post by
Monjaru
And Monjaru, I wonder why he didn't read your wordy, boring, unreadable post? Weird.
Well now, aren't you the clever one?
I've explained the point, both in simple and more complex terms, and if you don't understand either, that's your problem. Not mine. And by the way, just because
you
can't read something doesn't make it "unreadable". Just some food for thought.
Post by
688014
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Post by
sfagias
The reason you give that this advantage is unfair though is not enough. If you said that he broke some rules in order to get it, I will agree with you. But the fact is that said item is obtainable if the player is worth it, and that is well within the game's rules. The reason you give "some people do not like PvEing" is the same as the excuse: I do not like arenas and therefore I will never get wrathful, so people doing BGs and arenas will kill me easily. If you choose to overlook one part of the game it is your own problem. Not the game's. It has both aspects for you to choose. If you choose both you get the advantage. Quite simple logic and trail of thought.
The second reason you give "not every class can get SM" is not enough either. The classes that cannot get it have different kind of mechanics that allows them to overcome the loss of such weapon, be it heals, CCs, versatility. On a side note, these calsses can still get other items (check LK hc 25 loot table) that are almost as good as SM (without the fancy effect, which in PvP is not that powerfull, as one cc and the stacks get resetted easily) making that small (almost not mention worthy) advantage into much less of an advantage. Also, most classes want to get the T2 wrathfull weapon for the extra resilience anyway, whose difference with shadowmourne are minimal.
Here, i answered your question. Without quoting. If you got my point, then fine. If you did not, then you probably never will, and this conversation is going nowhere. Except if we all accept the fact that your view of fair is completely different that what we believe is fair and it ends here.
Post by
688014
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Post by
sfagias
First paragraph explained to you why one of your points was not true. I do not see why it is irrelevant as you have said over and over again that even if someone can use axes, SM is not available for him if he does not wish to PvE, and/or he does not spend much time in PvE.
Second part... You quoted out of context. Really? You? The one that said:and don't quote out of context?
First of all, casters can get ilvl 284 items (same as shadowmourne) from LK hc. yes? They are purple though not orange, shame, they won't draw that much attention. So they get equivalent stat boosters. Second, yes, they can be hit by a warrior wielding shadowmourne, but they can counter it with what I have stated above. If you can counter it, with keeping the warrior away most of the time then it is a successful counter and it is perfectly logical that they will not need such a weapon.
Now, yes, rogues and hunters rely on weapon damage too, but if you re-read my post you will see I answered that too, saying that these players can still get extremely good loot from LK hc making Shadowmourne's advantage insignificant. I also stated that MOST of these classes will go for wrathfull T2 weapons for the resiliance whcich, again, is better for them instead of more dps power as they tend to be squishier than plate wearers and need more damage reduction, so these weapons are actually better for them.
Post by
688014
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Post by
sfagias
The reason SM is orange and not purple is it's procc. It's procc is what makes it legendary. The stats are somewhat almost equal with the 284 weapons that drop off LK hc.
You quoted only a small part of a whole paragraph explaining you why you might be wrong.
In arenas, believe me, people care about squishiness. You obviously see mages and rogues with PvE gear, on BGs, or lower rated arena teams that will never go over 1.8k.
Obviously noone can keep a melee class away from them forever, that would be an insane cheat. But the fact that you can damage the dude and bring him to a certain % of his hp before he can reach you to actually hit you counters the fact that his swings hit you hard. You can still have the upper hand
if
you play it right.
Post by
Monjaru
@ Monjaru, apologies if I 'dodged' some of your points but I genuinely cannot remember which points I did not discuss, if any.
I gotta admit, this made me laugh on the inside a little bit. In that, "Haha, wow. Did you really just say that? I mean,
really
?" kinda way. Trust me, dude, you dodged (not 'dodged') more than "some" of my points. There were several entire posts that you never even attempted to touch.
Firstly, you're doing it backwards. I don't need to prove that upgrading a single piece of gear from the second-best thing to the BiS isn't going to effect your gameplay that much. That's to be assumed. If anything, you need to prove that a single piece of gear being upgraded from "next-best" to "best" will definitively improve your win percentage in arenas. Otherwise, you have no basis to say that using it in PvP is "unfair".
Never did attempt to prove a single piece of gear (this was back when the argument included all PvE gear, not just tunnelvisioning on SM) being upgraded from second-best to best will make any definitive change in a player's success in arena and a definitive change in that team's overall success in arena.
Lately, you've changed your argument to that whether it's gamebreaking or not doesn't matter and that it's still unfair because not everyone can have that minimal advantage that has little to no effect on PvP. (if you honestly can't see the contradiction in that, I feel for you; really I do)
Also, another thing you're clearly not understanding is that the only reason we're using quotes is because you're saying things that we've answered in previous posts already. I could have just as easily answered with this:
Again, it's the difference between being unfair to the whole of the playerbase and being unfair in PvP specifically. As I said before, if you can't make that distinction, you won't understand the argument until you do.
If you understood what this said, the entire discussion would be over because you'd realize the only thing you're arguing at this point is that having only one legendary available at this item level makes it unfair to those who can't get it. What makes you wrong is that you're claiming this unfairness to the playerbase as a whole automatically makes it unfair in PvP, which is far from the truth for the simple reason that it has little to no actual impact in rated PvP.
It's the point we've been making from the start; you've been ignoring it and picking out trivialities in our formatting and arguing pointless semantics.
Do the same thing I asked goshad to do (again, without quotes) and explain to me why what I said in this quote is flawed.
I already did. Again, you clearly don't understand the point behind using quotes. But since they're taboo with you, I'll humour you and give it to you outside of a quote box.
It's the difference between being unfair to the playerbase as a whole (what you're currently arguing) and being unfair to use in PvP (what you
think
you're currently arguing).
If you really want this discussion to end (which you don't; you don't want it to end unless you've "won" the debate, which won't happen unless you dodge and avoid the main point until we give up on trying to explain it to you; unfortunately for you, I'm about as stubborn as they come, so stall tactics won't work on me), read that sentence about a hundred times and meditate on its meaning until you're able to tell me what it means.
As I've said several times, you won't understand the argument and why you're wrong until you understand that statement.
Anyway, lets see what you both come up with. Remember, no quotes, I'll just ignore them and any accompanying sentences if you do use them.
Preemptive dodge noted. (now I see why goshad says stuff like this so much; I find myself wanting to say it everytime you dodge around points for stupid reasons)
Post by
335609
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Post by
105944
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Post by
Monjaru
I know, but the thing is we both know that I wont stop as using statements you've made that contradict your more recent arguments is necessary and completely appropriate. Without the support the argument will quickly devolve into "nu-uh!" "uh-huh!" "nu-uh!" "uh-huh!" (which would put us on an even playing field, so I could see why you would so desperately want it)
Quoted for the preemptive dodge.
Post by
688014
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