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10.2.5
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10.2.6
My Quandry with Judeo-Christian Beliefs
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Post by
HiVolt
Currently: I feel that god is in no way needed to explain that connection at all. In the earliest turmoils of the universe, gigantic stars went supernova and condensed themselves into all of the elements that make up this galaxy, this solar system, this planet, and even ourselves. Everything is indeed connected, because we are all- and everything else is- made up of the ancient stars that were birthed from the rapid early expansion of the universe. If you don't mind explaining, where do you believe the ''condensed elements of the galaxy' came from in the first place? I'm just wondering because this seems to be the standard aethiest point of view and i can't make any sense of it.
In the beginning, there wasn't just nothing, as many seem to agree. Everything existed, it was just much smaller. Gravitational, weak and strong radiation, and magnetic energies made up the primordial atom from which everything we know comes. What caused that primordial atom to expand? I am completely comfortable saying I have no idea. But, I'm not willing to interject an answer that has proven over and over to be incorrect(or at the very least completely unnecessary) in the area of natural phenomena.
When questions like this arise from the religious people of the world, they apply their ideologies selectively.
I would like to propose another few questions to underline my point in this post:
If all things need a creator, how did god come into being? If he has always existed, why do all other things need a creator but he doesn't?
Why do you believe in whichever god you believe in, and not in the other gods people have worshiped in this world?
Is it because you find the idea of multiple gods ridiculous? Why are multiple gods ridiculous and one god isn't?
Is it because you know that those old(or current, I guess) religions are unnecessary to explain the world around you? What makes them unnecessary and your religion necessary?
Is it because you find it irrational to have faith in ancient doctrine that does not apply to the time you live in? Why does that doctrine not apply but a 5,000-1,200 year old doctrine(speaking of Abrahamic religions here) does apply?
Is it fear of hell that drives your faith? Why are you afraid of something that can't be proven to exist?
Is it love of god that drives your faith? Why is god the determining factor in what you believe- why not love for family or goodness or just love itself?
Is it a disdain for evil that drives your faith? What about the evils done in the name of god- because they are evil, does that mean that it is not god behind them- and if it is not god behind them, why are people claiming it to be god's will and not their own that drives their evil actions? If god doesn't drive those evil actions as well, how can we be sure that he drives the good actions of mankind?
Answer these selectively if you wish, or dismiss them if you wish. I do know that many people will answer these questions with something like "just because", and those answers will not surprise me. I will be surprised if I am able to find an articulate and well-backed(in the philosophical sense, not necessarily the scientific- I don't really care if the answers to these are anecdotal, either) answer to any one of them.
I will say though, these are all fundamental questions on the nature of religious belief, and they are questions that the religious must ask themselves in order to truly have faith in their religion. If you can personally answer all of these and still have faith in your god, then you truly have remarkably unshakable faith.
Post by
717621
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
HiVolt
So let me ask you a question: How did a living being just suddenly pop into existence on Earth if nothing made it?
Chemical reactions. Take several hundred million to a billion years or so years, a handful of select molecular elements, add a dose of heat and some water and you've got a recipe for life(as we know it).
Post by
717621
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
So let me ask you a question: How did a living being just suddenly pop into existence on Earth if nothing made it?
Chemical reactions. Take several hundred million to a billion years or so years, a handful of select molecular elements, add a dose of heat and some water and you've got a recipe for life(as we know it).Which is where our beliefs differ. I don't believe, despite any amount of evidence, believe that life could come from inanimate objects unless an other worldly being, such as a God caused it.Life is, at it most basic definition, a self-sustaining chemical reaction. Most scientists agree that the RNA molecule probably came first, because it is capable as acting not only as a replicator, but a foundation as well.
We already know for a fact that amino acids (an organic molecule) are formed from inorganic materials very frequently in nature. Why not more complex organic molecules?
There are a lot of really good chemical theories out there involving peptide chains and "multimers" and so on. What makes it so fundamentally impossible that life can arise from inorganic causes. Why not?
Post by
HiVolt
Which is where our beliefs differ. I don't believe, despite any amount of evidence, believe that life could come from inanimate objects unless an other worldly being, such as a God caused it.
Well, good for you, I guess. I'm really not sure what to say...
Post by
Cambo
If all things need a creator, how did god come into being?God was (and is) always there. The 'creation rule' does not apply to God.
If he has always existed, why do all other things need a creator but he doesn't?...All other things required a creator to be created...?Why do you believe in whichever god you believe in, and not in the other gods people have worshiped in this world? I believe in the Abrahamic God because he revealed Himself to me. Any other gods have not, so I am lead to believe that they do not exist.
Is it because you find the idea of multiple gods ridiculous? Why are multiple gods ridiculous and one god isn't? No, I do not find the idea of multiple gods ridiculous. God is real to me, I've had interaction with Him. So if He says something like 'no other gods' then I believe that He is the only god that exists. If another god happens to reveal themselves to me, I will be dual-spec religiosity!
Is it because you know that those old(or current, I guess) religions are unnecessary to explain the world around you? What makes them unnecessary and your religion necessary? 'Unnecessary' is subjective. Christianity and Judaism does alot of good in the world, and they are simple, whereas the anti-religious groups try to sound super smart by using extremely difficult to understand (and therefore believe) theories and science. Jesus was all about simplicity.
Is it because you find it irrational to have faith in ancient doctrine that does not apply to the time you live in? Why does that doctrine not apply but a 5,000-1,200 year old doctrine(speaking of Abrahamic religions here) does apply? The crux of Christianity and Judaism is right relationship with God and man. This certainly applies to the time we all live in. Our world changes, but humans don't. We are just as driven by sex, money, power and fame like they were 4000 years ago.
Is it fear of hell that drives your faith? Why are you afraid of something that can't be proven to exist? It is fear of
separation from God
that drives my faith. I'll deal with the flames and demon pokey sticks when/if I get to hell.
Is it love of god that drives your faith? Why is god the determining factor in what you believe- why not love for family or goodness or just love itself? What 'drives' my faith has differed throughout my life. It was initially just being part of a church for social reasons, then it was fear of hell, then fear of God (separation etc). I am currently in another transition, which I put down to maturing faith.
Is it a disdain for evil that drives your faith? What about the evils done in the name of god- because they are evil, does that mean that it is not god behind them- and if it is not god behind them, why are people claiming it to be god's will and not their own that drives their evil actions? If god doesn't drive those evil actions as well, how can we be sure that he drives the good actions of mankind? I am at the stage now where my faith is no longer driven, it just is, and I feel it will continue. God is gracious, loving and caring, so he thus grants humans 'free will'; he doesn't control, but he often guides. Some get guidance all the time, some don't. Some need guidance, some don't. God does not encourage evil acts, however He can authorise things which adversely affect people. There are cases in history where God had killed people for opposing his works. For example, some christians who publicly opposed John Wesley were struck with sudden illness then died. This is purely because the work on the earth that God wanted to do would have helped so many people, and he didn't want anyone to stop it. Humans represent God in judeo-christian religions, yet humans are fallible and gravely misrepresent God. This has the effect of non-religious folk viewing God through a wrong perspective.
Post by
717621
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Cyonisper
I don't normally get into these arguments because I end up hurting someone's feelings...
But I see it fit that with modern science human life has evolved beyond the need of either a God or a Creator. The stories of the Old and New Testament were written a very long time ago to help people understand the value of life and why it is important for us all to work as one...
Regardless of the fact that this holy book was created to support all living beings, it was written in a language that only a few could understand... In many cases the Church used this to their advantage and used the image of God to have kings do things in their best Interest.
I used to be Christian, but that changed after learning about our world and how messed up it is.
Now I don't follow any religions... I believe in self peace and the powers of the human mind.
There are no churches to go to.
There is nothing to donate too.
There is nothing to Worship.
And the same amount of prayers are answered; as asked to the Christian God.
The way I see it:
If I am correct, I will have lived my life to its fullest, without fear of some greater being smiting me.
If I'm wrong and sent to hell... at least it's warm...
Post by
HiVolt
The 'creation rule' does not apply to God. The crux of my argument, explicitly stated by a religious person. It is selective application of ideology in action.
If all things need a creator(read: god), why doesn't god need a creator? You can't apply a blanket rule to absolutely everything and then say "Oh wait no, we didn't mean that thing, we meant everything else."
'Unnecessary' is subjective. Christianity and Judaism does alot of good in the world, and they are simple, whereas the anti-religious groups try to sound super smart by using extremely difficult to understand (and therefore believe) theories and science. Jesus was all about simplicity. Christianity and Judaism have also done plenty of evil in the world, thus calling into question the necessity of them.
Anti-religious groups use the most simplistic terms available to explain the phenomena they are attempting to explain. Science is indeed very simple. It is not the fault of the subject if you fail to understand the material it provides. It's really not all that tough to open to the glossary of a textbook if you're having trouble following all the big words.
We are just as driven by sex, money, power and fame like they were 4000 years ago. Then it seems like a grand idea to follow their lead, doesn't it?
There are cases in history where God had killed people for opposing his works.
So God's mind works somewhat akin to that of man. "This person doesn't agree with me, so I'll kill them." Am I understanding you correctly?
Humans represent God in judeo-christian religions, yet humans are fallible and gravely misrepresent God. This has the effect of non-religious folk viewing God through a wrong perspective. If humans are fallible, how can you trust the bible to be real? Their hands may have been guided by god. God may have shown them what they wrote. But, they were still humans that wrote the bible, and are thus fallible. How can you be certain that people haven't been misrepresenting god since the very beginning? Adam and Eve were also human, after all.
Post by
Patty
There are cases in history where God had killed people for opposing his works.
So, you're saying that god gives us free will, but then kills people with a dissenting belief to his, therefore completely ignoring that free will?
Post by
Monday
And then there is the LDS's official support of the Boy Scouts ban on homosexuals. The LDS is a big sponser of Boy Scouts, and a major reason the Boy Scouts still don't allow homosexuals to join (you know, besides plain old bigotry) is because the LDS has stated that it will withdraw support if the Boy Scouts admit gays.
That's not to say that every Mormon is the same and they all have the same stance on the issue, but the fact remains that the Chuch of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints discriminates against homosexuals, which I believe is wrong. They are people, just like us, and as long as they aren't harming anyone, they should be allowed to live their own lives as they please.
What are your views on polygamy?
making God seem less and less likely.
Like what? Give me tried and true evidence that God doesn't exist, and maybe I'll start taking you seriously.
No, you really couldn't. I'm basing my disbelief off of facts and theories supported with evidence and proof
Again, show me some proof. Right now you are acting the part of snobbish atheist, claiming you are far above us and more intelligent, yet refusing to say why you are atheist and refusing to show what evidence there is against God.
Post by
Monday
Sorry double post.
If all things need a creator, how did god come into being? If he has always existed, why do all other things need a creator but he doesn't?
I believe God was created by another God, who was created by another God, etc.
Why do you believe in whichever god you believe in, and not in the other gods people have worshiped in this world?
Because I have never had the same experiences in any other religion.
Is it because you find the idea of multiple gods ridiculous? Why are multiple gods ridiculous and one god isn't?
I don't find it ridiculous.
Is it because you know that those old(or current, I guess) religions are unnecessary to explain the world around you? What makes them unnecessary and your religion necessary?
My religion (as far as I know) doesn't go against any scientific research beyond human evolution. And I suppose there may be future doctrine saying humans did evolve. Nothing says God can't reveal more to humanity based on humanity's understanding of science (would God release doctrine pertaining to the creation of planets and life on other worlds if nobody even knew about it?)
Is it because you find it irrational to have faith in ancient doctrine that does not apply to the time you live in? Why does that doctrine not apply but a 5,000-1,200 year old doctrine(speaking of Abrahamic religions here) does apply?
N/A
Is it fear of hell that drives your faith? Why are you afraid of something that can't be proven to exist?
I don't fear hell because I'd have to do a
lot
to get landed in there. Cambo said it: The fear of eternal spiritual death is terrifying to me.
Is it love of god that drives your faith? Why is god the determining factor in what you believe- why not love for family or goodness or just love itself?
I love God and my family and humanity equally, it's just God is higher up, so I follow Him (among other things. I don't follow Him just because He's a higher power.)
Is it a disdain for evil that drives your faith? What about the evils done in the name of god- because they are evil, does that mean that it is not god behind them- and if it is not god behind them, why are people claiming it to be god's will and not their own that drives their evil actions? If god doesn't drive those evil actions as well, how can we be sure that he drives the good actions of mankind?
Evils done in the name of God, were, for the most part, done for political power (among other reasons). God condemns the use of violence, except in very severe circumstances (for example, that His true church would be wiped off the earth, such as in the Book of Nephi).
And in the end it's faith. I don't know that He exists or that He drives goodness, but I believe He does.
Post by
HiVolt
Is it because you find it irrational to have faith in ancient doctrine that does not apply to the time you live in? Why does that doctrine not apply but a 5,000-1,200 year old doctrine(speaking of Abrahamic religions here) does apply?
N/A
Now, Funden, you know that's not entirely true. Being a follower of Mormonism, you are adhering to the
main
ideologies of Christianity(Jesus the Messiah, the Virgin Mary, etc.), a religion that is some 2,000 years old.
Post by
DarkOpeth
I made my friend read this thread... he made it to page 8 before getting a massive headache. LOL
Post by
Monday
Is it because you find it irrational to have faith in ancient doctrine that does not apply to the time you live in? Why does that doctrine not apply but a 5,000-1,200 year old doctrine(speaking of Abrahamic religions here) does apply?
N/A
Now, Funden, you know that's not entirely true. Being a follower of Mormonism, you are adhering to the
main
ideologies of Christianity(Jesus the Messiah, the Virgin Mary, etc.), a religion that is some 2,000 years old.
I put N/A because I didn't fully understand the question. You're saying in the question (as far as I can make out) that for the hypothetical situation, you find it irrational to believe in ancient doctrine that doesn't apply to the time i live in.
Except you then use the Bible.
Are you saying that you think it is hypocritical to not join a religion because it is based off of old texts, whereas for another religion you believe in, the religion is based off an old text?
Just because somebody claims an old text is true and the word of God doesn't make it so.
Post by
HiVolt
Just because somebody claims an old text is true and the word of God doesn't make it so.
Exactly.
Post by
Monday
Just because somebody claims an old text is true and the word of God doesn't make it so.
Exactly.
That doesn't mean none of them are true ;)
This will be a point where we'll just need to agree to disagree/
Post by
HiVolt
Just because somebody claims an old text is true and the word of God doesn't make it so.
Exactly.
That doesn't mean none of them are true ;)
This will be a point where we'll just need to agree to disagree/
Indeed. I'm just saying that if we're going to apply skepticism then we should apply it equally.
Post by
Monday
Just because somebody claims an old text is true and the word of God doesn't make it so.
Exactly.
That doesn't mean none of them are true ;)
This will be a point where we'll just need to agree to disagree/
Indeed. I'm just saying that if we're going to apply skepticism then we should apply it equally.
I'm skeptical enough as it is. I still believe in the Bible/BoM/D&C etc. Doesn't mean I'm a really gullible person.
/shrug
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