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Lost without FAP
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Post by
271063
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Thror
I must say i love this topics name.
Anyway, no idea dude. In general though, a higher item level weapon will always increase the damage of your swings. So when upgrading your weapon, you want to look at the item level, and of course, on the green stats, to pick the ones that suit you best.
Post by
Heckler
From
http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t110352-feral_cat_cataclysm_release/
:
Feral weapons will no longer carry Feral Attack Power. Instead, weapon damage and speed will be translated directly to our paw damage. The exact mechanics of this are just as one would expect, but to clarify: Both the minimum and maximum damage from the weapon are divided by its attack speed. These values are multiplied by the base swing speed of the form you're in (1 for cats, 2.5 for bears), and those values are then added to your minimum and maximum damage without a weapon equipped.
Post by
271063
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
129046
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Shadax
For general use, the DPS value should be good. There is one specific situation for us where actual values for minimum and maximum weapon damage could be very important, but I haven't read anything one way or another on it.
Fury Swipes
tooltip specifically calls out weapon damage. If this functions like all of the other spells that called out weapon damage did, it means that having 2 equal DPS weapons, one with a fast swing speed and one with a slow swing speed, will result in substantially stronger hits on the slow weapon, as the weapon damage is higher. At one point, Blizzard was supposedly normalizing things so that weapon speed didn't matter as much, but even after they did that, all the evidence from EJ and other theorycrafting showed that slower weapons were still better for abilities that referred to dealing X% weapon damage.
Post by
Heckler
I was thinking the same thing as I read it, which is actually why I decided to just quote it, rather than give my own interpretation -- the EJ author probably said it like that for a reason, even if I don't know what it is.
I figure that calculating min and max separately will give more realistic results than simply using the average if you were writing a simulator or something. It looks like all the cata items are identical in terms of min and max, but here's 2 LK items with the same DPS and different damage ranges:
One
Two
(The polearm has a tighter min-max window). They would both average the same damage per second, but the polearm would show less deviation from the average over a finite window, which could be worth considering... to someone... probably.
For Feral Druids specifically, I've always interpreted "Weapon Damage" to mean the 1.0 Speed "Cat Paw" or 2.5 Speed "Bear Paw" -- everyone remember
Crystalforged Trinket
? The only thing I can really think where min/max might be desired is if I were writing a theorycraft spreadsheet or something -- I would want my damage calculations to use the same formulas as the actual game, which means generating a random number between min and max for any weapon damage calculation, not just using the DPS.
Post by
Thror
Except the "Weapon damage" on Fury Swipes is talking about your "Paw damage" in cat form. The numbers you see when you check your chatacter pane in cat form. And your Paw damage is calculated from the normalised weapon damage. So weapon speed should not matter.
You are all just overcomplicating it, guys. Weapon damage goes up with item level. Just check the weapons item level, and if it is higher than the one you currently have (and it is a two handed weapon with agility), it is guaranteed to do more swing damage than the one you have.
Post by
129046
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Heckler
Bloodfall
should add 235.588 damage to Cat Form minimum, and 353.82 to Cat form maximum.
Distant Land
should add 235.4166 to minimum, 353.75 to Cat form maximum.
So they should act more or less identically in Cat Form. The two I linked above are a tad different though:
Mojo Masked Crusher
adds 126.94 / 211.66
Saliva Corroded Pike
adds 135.27 / 203.33
So the DPS and speeds are the same, but the min/max difference carries through to form, and the 2nd one gives you less deviation in your output. This is worth thinking about, Cat Form has always had a tiny window (min and max were seperated by 1) which meant that our damage was relatively constant. With the new system, you should see big variations (ie. your hardest non-crit Mangle should be significantly harder than your lightest non-crit Mangle).
You can demonstrate this on the dummy pretty easily, unequip your weapon and swing for awhile. Ignoring things like AP procs, the damage of each swing should be within 1-2 of every other swing (and your character screen should show a min/max that are very close). Now equip a weapon, and swing for awhile. You'll see much more variation in the numbers, and your character screen will show a min/max that are as far apart as the weapon you equipped.
Testing whether or not fury swipes is actual weapon item damage should be pretty easy, I think it would be altogether silly if it was... I'll try to test it out.
EDIT
: I just tested it using my normal weapon and then a white dagger (7-13 damage), and in both cases the Fury Swipes damage was around 310% of the character screen "Damage" listing.
Post by
Thror
Heckler, the two weapons you link are fundamentally different. It is like comparing apples to pears. Try comparing
this
to
this
. The weapon speed differs, but they should result in pretty much the same paw damage.
Post by
Heckler
They will result in the same paw damage increases (442 / 663, which average to 552.2, the listed DPS for both weapons) , just like Bloodfall and Distant Land do. I specifically searched for 2 weapons that had the
same
Speed and DPS but different ranges min-to-max, since the original question was why can't you just use the DPS (which is the same idea as using the item level).
Keep in mind, I'm not saying that using the DPS or Item Level is wrong, I'm just trying to explore the reasoning behind the seemingly overcomplex explanation given on EJ -- the min and max translate through directly, the DPS is a consequence of this. The DPS can be used, but if you were writing a simulator, the method by which the Min and Max are translated to form would be important too.
Let me try to summarize: If you're just comparing two weapons in-game, the item level (or DPS, which is a function of item level) is all that's important. Speed and Min/Max range won't cause any difference in infinite-timeline performance. However, in a more complex/specific discussion, simply using the DPS isn't sufficient. A weapon that did 499-501 would behave quite differently than one that did 1-999 in terms of a
single attack
, even though they would both act identically over an infinite timeline.
Post by
pelf
Lost without FAP
That's what he said.
Post by
Thror
Instant win.
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