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PTR
10.2.5
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10.2.6
Stat Building Prot Warrior Heroic 85
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Post by
VagrantChrisX
This is my Character Spreadsheet from Armory
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/whisperwind/grayfusion/advanced
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This is my first warrior ever; but it's been a smooth experience leveling, tanking normals and heroics as Protection Spec. I still need room for improvement when it comes to spec wise, gear wise and stats in general. Maybe you guys can give me some tips on gearing and reforging correctly as well.
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As you notice from my character sheet, I have been reforging Dodge to Mastery, Hit, Expertise, and Parry mostly. I heard Parry is much more important than dodge and Mastery as the #1 stat to focus on. Since smooth damage is better than spiky damage. Couple of Questions I have for you guys
1. Does Dodge and Parry have a CAP where adding more numbers would give back less return?
2. What does diminishing returns on Dodge, Mastery, and Parry actually do? like if you parry 50 shots, will each parry reduce the % of parry to 0%? I'm confused
3. is it possible to be at like 50% dodge? for example
4. DPS and Healers keep calling me a noob cause I didn't take Vigilance, I heard a good tank focuses on threat management instead of relying heavily on Taunt.
5. is there a rule on what is the optimal setup for balancing hit, expertise, dodge, parry, and mastery?
I think that's pretty much it for now, these questions have been bugging me for awhile so any info would be great. Thanks guys
Post by
Sakkura
You should be reforging parry to mastery or dodge, not dodge to parry or mastery.
1. Not in practice; there is a cap, but it's irrelevant because you'd never reach it anyway.
2. The diminishing returns on avoidance just means you get less percentage out of each point of parry or dodge rating (or agility) when you have more of it already.
3. Technically yes, but in practice it requires so much dodge rating that it's neither possible nor desirable.
4. They're dumb. Vigilance is pretty poor nowadays; it's mostly useful for raid offtank purposes (because it helps with vengeance).
5. Reforge hit to something else, get expertise if you need threat (depends on your gear, your skill, your raid, the encounter etc.), keep your dodge and parry numbers close (look at the rating numbers, not the percentages), and get a lot of mastery.
Post by
VagrantChrisX
Thanks for the quick Reply
Post by
131584
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Porcell
1) This is a two part question with a similar answer. Is there a cap to Dodge and Parry; yes, but it is not achievable, you would need hundres of thousands of rating points in order to even get close to it. The mathematical cap in the formula is 65.63%, but even with 1,000,000 parry rating you would still only have 64.91% parry.
The second part of the question is "Is there a point where adding more numbers gives less return." Yes, but it's not really a "point" as it is a continuous diminishing return. Think of the "actual" avoidance being a curved line that is falling away from the straight "expected" line.
Quick example. Lets say that the "expected" line would look like 10 rating is 1% avoidance, 20 rating is 2% avoidance, 30 rating is 3% avoidance, and so on. That would be a straight line. Now when you calculate diminishing returns, 10 rating only gives you 0.95% avoidance, 20 rating gives you 1.88% avoidance, 30 rating gives you 1.80%, 40 gives you 1.70%. If you were to plot that line, you would see your diminished avoidance slowly falling further and further away from the expected line. In this example, 10 rating is 0.05% off, 20 is 0.12% off, 30 is 0.20% off, and 40 is 0.30% off. It falls off more and more as the rating increases.
To state it again, there is no actual POINT or LIMIT where avoidance DR "gets bad." You continually get less and less avoidance per rating as you gain more. For reference, at 1000 parry rating you would expect to get 5.65% parry but you actually get 5.43% parry, so you are getting 96% of what you would expect. At 1500 parry rating you expect 8.49% parry but actually get 7.82%, or 92.12% of the expectation. At 2000 parry rating you expect 11.32% but get 10.03%, 88.62% return.
2) Somewhat answered already. Mastery does not have diminishing returns; 179.28 mastery rating will always give 1 mastery skill which will always give 1.5% to block and critical block. Dodge and Parry do have diminishing returns. 176.72 Dodge/Parry rating give 1% avoidance, but this number diminishes as you get more and more. (You can think of 176 rating giving you less than 1% avoidance, OR you can think of it as 1% avoidance requiring more than 176 rating, whichever way you prefer).
Don't sweat the numbers. Just know that by keeping Dodge and Parry relatively close to the same number will minimize the impact of diminishing returns. For example. if you had 500 dodge rating and 2500 parry rating, you would have 2.83 dimiinshed dodge (2.82% expected) and 12.08 diminished parry (14.15% expected) for a total of 14.91% avoidance out of 16.98 expected. Switch it to 1500 in both dodge and parry and you get 7.82% for both (8.49% expected), for a total of 15.64% of 16.98 expected. So by evenly distributing Dodge and Parry to 1500/1500 instead of 500/2500, you gained 0.73% avoidance.
3) No, you can't get 50% dodge. We don't know yet how much avoidance rating is going to come from gear as we go on, but right now you aren't likely to break 20% avoidance in one catagory. Further, Blizzard was talking about increasing bosses Expertise to artificially lower a tank's avoidance as the tiers go on. We'll have to wait and see on that point.
4) As stated, Vigilance is good for keeping your vengeance up when you are an offtank. The taunt refresh is a crutch, and not even a good crutch. Do NOT use vigilance on DPS and do NOT use it as a taunt refresh crutch. [Fight mechanics aside. Nef add duty or LK ghoul taunting can be a useful execution of vigilance taunt refresh.
5) Hit/Exp/etc etc balance. This is a tricky question and really depends on where you are at in the game and what you are doing. For main raiding progression right now, the mentality at the moment is that Mastery is king and then balance Parry and Dodge. Hit and Expertise are worth nothing in a raid environment where your vengeance is giving you 11,000 attack power, so avoid those stats and reforge them into mastery or avoidance on those items you do have.
That said; if you are running heroics, holding agro and helping out by doing damage should be more of a concern. For me, I don't -need- my 35% total avoidance and 58% block chance in a heroic, so I swap out old items that have been reforged to Hit and Expertise. That way I can get to the 6% hit cap and 22 Expertise cap for heroics and contribute more damage and threat.
Some 10 man groups require a tank to interrupt. Those tanks may choose to put some Hit on their gear in order to minimize the chance for a missed interrupt. (Expertise is no help for interrupts since a mob can not dodge/parry while casting).
Post by
VagrantChrisX
Thanks so much for that nice informative post, it's all coming together quite nicely. I have been sacrificing dodge for parry, but it's been hurting me even more I See. I will reforge and re-gem to make those #'s evenly spread across the board. I'll keep mastery high as well.
Post by
Porcell
Thanks so much for that nice informative post, it's all coming together quite nicely. I have been sacrificing dodge for parry, but it's been hurting me even more I See. I will reforge and re-gem to make those #'s evenly spread across the board. I'll keep mastery high as well.
There are 4 types of items you will run across when it comes to reforging.
Mastery / Avoidance = Leave it
Mastery / Threat = Reforge the Hit or Expertise into Dodge -or- Leave it if you really want the threat
Avoidance / Avoidance = Reforge whichever has more rating on the item into Mastery (i.e. 180/160, reforge the 180 rating into Mastery). If they are equal, reforge Parry into Mastery.
Avoidance / Threat = Reforge the Hit or Expertise into Mastery.
Do that "first pass" across all your gear. Once you have all of that done, look at your character sheet where it says Dodge and Parry. You are likely to find your Parry % to be greater than your Dodge %. You are aiming to have your character sheet Parry% equal to Dodge%+1.3%. If your Parry % is more than 1.3% more, go back through your gear and find any Mastery / Parry items you have and start reforging your Parry into Dodge.
There is some math being done regarding Parry Rating and it's effect on Hold the Line uptime, which gives 10% additional critical block when active. At this point I am not convinced with any of the math coming out of that discussion. There are some arguments that additional parry can lead to an increase in HtL uptime and thus is a good benefit when your Mastery skill is high. The fuzzy math right now is not definitive, but avoidance balancing for increased returns IS definitive, so I'll stick with the 1.25%+Dodge = Parry figure. Maybe in the future, when mastery capping can lead to 100% block chance, then maybe Hold the Line might become enough of a factor to reforge all dodge into parry, but it's not at that point right now.
Post by
marklartank
you've reforged +342 hit. i would remove that reforging ASAP as you've also gone -530 dodge rating.
the +50 expertise and additional expertise gems are ok IF you need the threat (big IF there). if not, go with parry for the red slots and remove the reforging. if you do need a threat boost, keep the expertise and drop the hit.
personally, i'm keeping parry > dodge because of HoL, but not to the extend that you have it (15% vs. 9%).
a weapon chain would probably be better than your avalanche enchant and blocking > shield spike.
Post by
VagrantChrisX
great reply on how the gems are attributed,
going to start to balance out dodge and parry and the rest into mastery, but....
When I tank instances, I sometimes have issues keeping threat due to those DPS who love to nuke the crap out of everything they see. Honestly we can yell and complain but that won't stop things from happening especially in pugs. Wouldn't I lose an advantage when it comes to threat balancing if I start removing HIT and EXP from all my equipment?
I was in Vortex Pinnacle the other day and I was so pissed off due to this other fury warrior stealing aggro. He gets aggro and doesn't stop DPSING. He did this multiple times during thrash pulls and then I said, " the hell with it", I grabbed a group of mobs to a corner and let him die. He died 7 times during the run and the rest didn't wipe once. How will I know if It was me sucking or he just didn't manage his aggro output?
Post by
VagrantChrisX
1) This is a two part question with a similar answer. Is there a cap to Dodge and Parry; yes, but it is not achievable, you would need hundres of thousands of rating points in order to even get close to it. The mathematical cap in the formula is 65.63%, but even with 1,000,000 parry rating you would still only have 64.91% parry.
The second part of the question is "Is there a point where adding more numbers gives less return." Yes, but it's not really a "point" as it is a continuous diminishing return. Think of the "actual" avoidance being a curved line that is falling away from the straight "expected" line.
Quick example. Lets say that the "expected" line would look like 10 rating is 1% avoidance, 20 rating is 2% avoidance, 30 rating is 3% avoidance, and so on. That would be a straight line. Now when you calculate diminishing returns, 10 rating only gives you 0.95% avoidance, 20 rating gives you 1.88% avoidance, 30 rating gives you 1.80%, 40 gives you 1.70%. If you were to plot that line, you would see your diminished avoidance slowly falling further and further away from the expected line. In this example, 10 rating is 0.05% off, 20 is 0.12% off, 30 is 0.20% off, and 40 is 0.30% off. It falls off more and more as the rating increases.
To state it again, there is no actual POINT or LIMIT where avoidance DR "gets bad." You continually get less and less avoidance per rating as you gain more. For reference, at 1000 parry rating you would expect to get 5.65% parry but you actually get 5.43% parry, so you are getting 96% of what you would expect. At 1500 parry rating you expect 8.49% parry but actually get 7.82%, or 92.12% of the expectation. At 2000 parry rating you expect 11.32% but get 10.03%, 88.62% return.
2) Somewhat answered already. Mastery does not have diminishing returns; 179.28 mastery rating will always give 1 mastery skill which will always give 1.5% to block and critical block. Dodge and Parry do have diminishing returns. 176.72 Dodge/Parry rating give 1% avoidance, but this number diminishes as you get more and more. (You can think of 176 rating giving you less than 1% avoidance, OR you can think of it as 1% avoidance requiring more than 176 rating, whichever way you prefer).
Don't sweat the numbers. Just know that by keeping Dodge and Parry relatively close to the same number will minimize the impact of diminishing returns. For example. if you had 500 dodge rating and 2500 parry rating, you would have 2.83 dimiinshed dodge (2.82% expected) and 12.08 diminished parry (14.15% expected) for a total of 14.91% avoidance out of 16.98 expected. Switch it to 1500 in both dodge and parry and you get 7.82% for both (8.49% expected), for a total of 15.64% of 16.98 expected. So by evenly distributing Dodge and Parry to 1500/1500 instead of 500/2500, you gained 0.73% avoidance.
3) No, you can't get 50% dodge. We don't know yet how much avoidance rating is going to come from gear as we go on, but right now you aren't likely to break 20% avoidance in one catagory. Further, Blizzard was talking about increasing bosses Expertise to artificially lower a tank's avoidance as the tiers go on. We'll have to wait and see on that point.
4) As stated, Vigilance is good for keeping your vengeance up when you are an offtank. The taunt refresh is a crutch, and not even a good crutch. Do NOT use vigilance on DPS and do NOT use it as a taunt refresh crutch.
Updated Gems and Stats
what do you think?
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/whisperwind/grayfusion/advanced
Post by
Porcell
--830 words--
Updated Gems and Stats
what do you think?
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/whisperwind/grayfusion/advanced
What do I think? I think it wasn't necessary to quote my whole post.
That is an exceptional amount of dodge and parry, more than I have even, but your Mastery is "low." The draw of mastery is the steady reduction of damage. You've moved away from Hit and Expertise, which is good. Again, if you need that hit and expertise in heroics, look for alternative pieces of gear or swap in hit/expertise trinkets to get there.
50 dodge to bracers is better than the old WotLK Stamina enchant.
Shield spike is pretty bad, get the Block enchant.
Mending, oh man Mending, it is SO lackluster. I was doing hardmode Halfus last night and over 4 minutes in the fight with TCs/Rends/Shockwaves on 10 mobs, cleaving and swinging away, I would do like a total of 50k healing over 4 minutes. It was PATHETIC. I quickly switched back to the Avalanche I had on my weapon before.
Get Therazane rep up; Honored is super fast to get to and you can get the lower tier shoulder enchant. By super fast, I mean do the opening questline an you'll basically be there already.
That's about it for now. Slow internet right now so I can't look really close at what exactly you have for items. I see the DPS belt, which is okay I guess, but the tanking belt is so cheap to craft (and perfectly itemized) that you really should pick it up.
Post by
VagrantChrisX
Yeah I started to notice I'm missing a lot more than before, but hopefully it won't be an end gaming experience for me. I'll focus on mastery from now on since you stated my dodge and parry is pretty good. I'm currently not into raiding or anything so Mending has been keeping me company and I like the extra damage from the spike.
In the throne of the tides heroic version, our whole grp made it to the final boss the huge octopus. The healer couldn't keep the group alive and I was the last one left standing, boss was at 13%... so I hit shield wall, enraged, enraged regeneration and kept Wacking with a purpose. I was at 2% health when he died. The health from ER and Mending kept me alive. It was the most exciting thing ever while everyone in vent was yellin! DO IT DO IT! lawl.
my 41% block rate is not cutting it, so I'm still working on getting my epic boots from wildhammer. Then I'll work on Therazane for my shoulder enchants. Thanks for all the info.
Post by
Porcell
Yeah I started to notice I'm missing a lot more than before, but hopefully it won't be an end gaming experience for me. I'll focus on mastery from now on since you stated my dodge and parry is pretty good. I'm currently not into raiding or anything so Mending has been keeping me company and I like the extra damage from the spike.
Take a look at recount sometime and see how much damage your spike is doing. It is horrible.
The gimmick on Ozamat or whatever is the only reason those things did decent damage. I used to have Impending Victory and it kept me at full health during that fight as I soloed it. It doesn't mean Impending Victory is any good (I have since dropped it).
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