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Burning Soul
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Post by
delani
Alrighty guys, I know Elitist Jerks says burning soul is the best thing since sliced bread, but I'm just not seeing it. Especially when the 8% crit and extended range you get from fire blast (and thus impact) is really useful in itself.
I'm currently using this spec
http://www.wowhead.com/talent#o0hZdfhrkbRRsfoc
And it seems to be working pretty well. Due to scorch weaving on trash, and fireball spam on bosses (scorch if i have to move) I don't really have any interrupt problems.
Granted, I haven't started on heroics yet, as I'm still gearing up, and I won't be able to raid at all due to time conflicts, but is Burning Soul really that valuable? Especially with the 3.0-something change to spell pushback making the first 2 hits affect push back, but any others basically means you ignore pushback completely?
I'm also on the fence with Cauterize, but that could be a different story, as I can see the uses for it, but in pugs healers will be focused on keeping you alive, and unless your quick on ice block or your healer ignores you until cauterize kicks in, and then heals you up after it procs, it just seems like it has limited uses for a true DPS gain.
Any advice on what i should be doing, as theorycraft doesn't always match practical.
Post by
nickseng
You should note that theorycrafts generally target end-game contents, i.e. raids. If you're not there, or if you're not planning to do raids, then the theorycrafts generally don't apply to you.
Post by
delani
Yes, i kinda figured as much, but what are the raids doing that are different then other fights? Even looking them over, mechanic wise, there is not a whole lot different. There is still lots of AoE damage, lots of movement, lots of staying out of the fire, and downing adds that spawn.
So how does that affect pushback and thus increase the value of Burning Soul?
Post by
Archibolt
From the top of my mind, all raid bosses I have tried have some sort of AoE attacks.
Taking my last
Atramedes
attempt as an example:
Over the 8m58s it took us to kill him, I have taken 18 hits from
, his unavoidable AoE attack.
With 1/3 in
, each pushback would cost 0.385s. That would be 6.93s lost from pushback over 9mins.
With 2/3 in
, each pushback would cost 0.270s. Which means 4.14s lost from pushback over 9mins.
With 3/3 in
, each pushback would cost 0.150s. Which means 2.7s lost over 9mins.
Theoretically, over a 9min Atramedes fight, each point in Burning Soul enables you to, more or less, squeeze in another
Fireball
.
In that fight, I have casted 80
Fireball
- if I had only put 1 point in Burning Soul, I would probably have only been able to cast 78; 2.5% less than if I had 3/3.
It may not seem like much, and it probably isn't, but in this case, you can think of Burning Soul as, at the very least, the less bad of two options to advance into the second tier of fire mage talents.
The 2
Fireball
that 3/3 has "granted" me can do from 15k to 30k(if crit) each.
Would Improved Fire Blast be able to match it? Fire Blast is very much set aside on single target boss fights as it is, due to the efficiency of Scorch in many cases. Granting 8% more crit on a spell that only tend to be used by mistake or out of habit, may seem a bit much.
To answer your question: Is Burning Soul worth it? To me, yes. Absolutely, no doubt about it. I have tried to explain with the above as to why I think so. But as with most things, it is subjective. You are well within your rights to disagree.
As for Cauterize, I do indeed have points in it. It is, to me, something that you won't notice until it saves your life. It may not do so often, but when it does, I am extremely thankful I had put both points in it.
It's not a direct DPS gain but it could end up being one if you mess up somewhere.
Edit: I've completely miss-read a part of your post.
Outside raids, Burning Soul's effectiveness varies from dungie to dungie. But even in heroics, I do not use Fire Blast until the very last few moments of the fight as a finishing move.
So between having a chance to not get hit too hard by pushback, and improving a spell that I rarely use, I would still go for Burning Soul in heroics.
Post by
delani
I guess i use fire blast differently. To me, especially with impact, its an AoE spreading, instant cast spell that can refresh its cooldown, and proc more hot streak.
Yea, it costs more mana then scorch does (especially when scorch is free) but its only 5% higher mana cost then fireball, and if you time a combustion->impact proc you can double dip ignite (first from combustion, then you refresh ignite with the higher crit chance on fire blast on the main target fueling your higher DPS from the ignite DoT)
Add to that the fact that the current gear doesn't offer a lot in the way of crit (especially if you focus on the haste softcap, and getting hit capped) an additional 8% crit, plus extended range on a spell that can proc hot streak (which those instant free pyroblasts are the basics for fire DPS) seems like a good trade off.
Using your 2 fireball example, couldn't you fire blast (or even refresh living bomb) during the casting of the Modulation, thus prevent yourself from losing any casting due to push back and potentially giving yourself a free pyroblast in the process?
I know, its more theory crafting, but assuming equal crit rates, and glyphed fireball, your still looking at 3% higher crit chance on fireblast, at the same distance of cast, without having to worry about being interrupted, which can proc hot streak, which in the event of an unavoidable AoE about to hit, i'd say instant cast spells would be the better option, instead of soaking a pushback.
Granted, with the higher mana cost, and lower spell co-efficient i can see fire blast not getting much use aside from impact procs to spread DoTs around on trash pulls, or when bosses have additional adds so you can benefit from pyromaniac.
Post by
138583
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Archibolt
Hmm I actually haven't thought of using Fire Blast with Modulation incoming. It does seem tempting as the damage range would be from 108 to 216k over 9mins. However that will involve stopping mid-cast or stop casting before Modulatiom.
It just seem like a hassle and at first glance it seem a bit inefficient.
Come to think about it though, that is another plus point for Burning Soul for me: it allows me to keep focused on my usual single target rotation rather than force me to react based on the frequent AoE.
It is interesting to look at Improved Fire Blast as a way to further increase our AoE as you point out. That will be one of the better reasons to spec into it. However I just don't have enough talent points.
It boils down to Burning Soul being always useful in raids as every boss has AoE effects going on. On the other hand, I don't Fire Blast unless I want to chain DoTs around, and that opportunity doesn't come on every boss fight.
Post by
delani
Heres my next question. How does Pushback reduction stack?
Say, burning soul + concentration aura, would that give 105% reduction thus completely remove pushback as an issue? Or is there a cap, so that push back remains an issue regardless of how much reduction you have?
Post by
Archibolt
They do indeed stack. Additively according to
Wowpedia
.
Post by
greywolfsage
Heres my next question. How does Pushback reduction stack?
Say, burning soul + concentration aura, would that give 105% reduction thus completely remove pushback as an issue? Or is there a cap, so that push back remains an issue regardless of how much reduction you have?
One assumes that it caps at 100% though.
Otherwise I think we'd call it haste. XD
Post by
delani
So that means that with a holy pally (who rocks the concentration aura) burning soul becomes worthwhile, as no pushback at all is better then any push back.
I wonder if ghostcrawler is gonna make good on his word that mages are going to get some form of inherent pushback, like those other classes have (aside from warlocks, who have it even worse then we do)
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