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10.2.7
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T11 DPS legs for tanking
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Post by
724197
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Calda
Well, as just one piece of gear, it's viable. But. If you're hoping of getting the set-bonus, I'd take the tanking legs.
Post by
126061
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
117348
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
724197
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MegaVolt
Hmm..interesting point...if you are going for mastery/hit/expertise method of tanking, is DPS armor possibly better to stack than Tank armor? You'll get a huge Blood Shield..
The mastery/hit/expertise "method" is silly, just don't do it.
Mastery is awesome, yes. But hit and expertise are a
lot
worse than dodge or parry.
Stacking mastery is fine but don't waste secondary stats on getting hit or exp capped. Getting to either cap will cost you thousands of a secondary stat. The Blood Shields gained from hitting that DS a second earlier is just ridiculously bad compared to the insane amount of dodge and parry you lose.
At the OP:
Being a mastery stacking tank (
without
going for hit or exp) is a good thing. But you don't want to stack it at the expense of all else, you still need reasonable dodge and parry numbers. So just don't worry about it and take the tanking legs.
Post by
117348
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MegaVolt
But fact is if you are going to lean on blood shield we can all agree that your weapon needs to make contact with boss. The less misses and parry/dodges by the boss, the better the chance you can maintain your BS.
That's not true. If you miss a DS you will just land the next one 1 second later. The runes are not wasted after all, there is really no point at all in trying to get hit/exp for Blood Shields.
Post by
724197
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MegaVolt
The reason behind the exp/hit stacking is that the 1 second in between a strike that missed and one that lands could be the difference between a 20k heal and a 12k heal. (if that 1 second is the end of the 5 second DS heal timeframe)
But it can just as well be the difference between a 12k heal and a 20k heal (if you take a huge damage spike in that one second the DS got delayed).
That's why going for hit/exp is so pointless. You can't know for sure if you will gain or lose healing from the delay.
Sure, if you watch your addon that shows shield size all the time and try to time your DS just right you will generally end up with slightly higher shields but the difference should be minor at best and it gets completely compensated by the increased average physical damage from the lack of avoidance.
If you could turn your whole 4.5% hit and 20 expertise into dodge and parry you would gain around 8% avoidance. That's pretty significant, a lot more significant than having the DS delayed for a second (maybe getting a smaller but maybe getting an even bigger shield because of it).
I also don't quite agree with the "half cap" statement.
Either exp/hit is better than dodge/parry. If it is then it's worth stacking it until the cap. Or exp/hit is worse than dodge/parry. Then it is not worth getting a single point of hit/exp and you should reforge out of it whenever you can. There really is no middle ground when min/maxing survival stats (unless you happen to be at a breakpoint where diminishing returns on dodge/parry lower their value enough for other things to be viable - but that's not relevant in this case).
I'd say dodge/parry clearly wins against hit/exp for survival. Obviously things are different for threat generation (so if you have threat issues then the "half cap" argument is valid - but only for the threat, not for survival / conservation of healer mana).
Post by
117348
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MegaVolt
Its about mastery vs avoidance. In the end its about testing both approaches in actual situations and seeing which is more effective. Till then its just all speculation.
What have you actually tested and what were the actual results? Can you link your DK tank toon please? I dont see any toons on your profile.
Youre a avoidance junkie, and thats fine
No, no and no.
I'm not linking toons out of principle. Theorycrafting has nothing to do with toons. It's just that, theory.
And no, I'm not an avoidance junkie. It's also not about mastery vs avoidance. There simply is no contest, mastery wins hands down. Mastery is a LOT better than dodge/parry, you won't ever see me argueing against that. Go for mastery by all means.
But
DON'T
go for mastery/hit/exp. It's only the hit/exp part that is wrong. Mastery is awesome, but going for mastery/dodge/parry is
MUCH
better than going for mastery/hit/exp.
You do
not
need hit/exp for mastery to be good. If you miss you get your runes refunded. You don't miss out on DS when you miss, you can just cast it a second later. There is no downside to a miss, you get the full benefit from mastery even with 0 hit/exp. Getting to the hit/exp cap will not increase your shields, it will have pretty much no effect on them at all.
It's really simple math. No experiments are needed, no toons need to be linked and it's not a matter of opinion.
Again: I'm not saying hit/exp are bad stats. They are awesome threat stats. But that's really it - they are threat stats, they do nothing for your mitigation.
You can go mastery/hit/exp if you want threat. But if you want survivability and help healers this approach is inferior to mastery/dodge/parry. Simple math.
Post by
117348
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MegaVolt
I see where you and I disagree - you think hit/exp doesnt affect blood shield effectiveness and I think it does. Its doesnt sound like you and I are going to agree anytime soon.
Again: A DS that misses does not cost any runes. You get the runes refunded.
That's why hit/exp does not affect Blood Shield. You get exactly the same number of Death Strikes at 0 hit/exp as you get at the hit/exp cap. There is no difference (and I wrote that multiple times now).
So when you are saying hit/exp helps Blood Shield you simple don't have any argument for that. If you make such a bold claim it's on you to prove that hit/exp actually do something for your shield. Show me the gameplay mechanic that makes hit/exp help your shields. Hint: There is none. Because hit/exp are not important.
It's really easy: You say hit/exp helps Blood Shield. I explained in depth why missing does
not
reduce the number of shields you get. You only have 3 options now:
1. Agree with me, accept that you made a small error in the rune mechanic and accept the fact that hit/exp are useless for mitigation.
2. Find a
logical, verifiable
argument why hit/exp matter for shields. Personal experience is by definition not verfiable and not logical either. It doesn't count.
3. Be a child that can't admit he made a (really understandable, the shield mechanic isn't exactly trivial) mistake, keep making excuses, point to personal experience, try to link toons and raid achievements and to compare your epeen to distract from your lack of arguments (by the way that's exactly the reason why I don't link chars in arguments, it's nothing but a pointless distraction and not helpful in any way).
I'll leave it up to the people on this forum - they can go with me, an actual practicing 85 DK tank, or you that has never played an 85 DK tank.
It's not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of hard facts, pure math, nothing else. Having or not having a DK tank is simply not relevant.
And I never said I don't have a lvl 85 DK tank. In fact I stated earlier that I refuse to link chars on princible. Again you are making a completely unfounded claim without any evidence whatsoever to back it up. Worse, instead of making silly claims about gameplay mechanics without any evidence you are making silly claims about
my
characters now. Stop jumping to (wrong) conclusions.
Post by
117348
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MegaVolt
- I didnt mean to offend you by asking to see your toon. You indicated on a prior reply you play low level tanks. Based on that, I assumed you dont have an 85 dk tank.
- I am big enough to admit Ive made an error - but Im sorry I havent yet read anything from you to feel I am wrong.
- "hard Facts, pure math and nothing else". Really? I dont see how you can discount actually playing the game as a tank as not important lol. I mean, in the end this isnt world of theorycraft, its world of warcraft. Youre like the economics teacher in the class room, Im like the chairman of Fed. I do it in real life, you just talk about it.
- Lastly, Im willing to let the forums decide. If they think Im wrong, then hey no worries. Sounds like we have an interesting topic for a new thread. I'll post it and let wowhead users decide.
(ps. What does principal have to do with posting your toons URL? Far as Im concerned that just means you really dont have a 85 DK tank lol)
In a completely other topic I mentioned a low lvl DK that I have. So what? How does that make you think I don't have one at 85? Have you seriously never seen people with (gasp!) multiple characters of the same class? Have you never seen someone create a low lvl DK on a different server because some friend happens to play there?
Again: Stop jumping to conclusions. Especially about my characters.
And it's not even relevant. If I was talking about some raid achievement and how to do it properly then asking for a character to prove that I actually did it would be valid. But having or not having a DK is completely irrelevant for this question. Even playing or not playing WoW is completely irrelevant. This is not a problem that can be answered with game play experience. This is simply a math problem, nothing else. Having or not having a DK has no impact whatsoever on ones ability to solve math problems.
Your illusions of grandure are ridiculous. Chairman of the Fed, yea right.
There is no need to create a new topic. There are already 2 about it, the arguments have been written multiple times now and the correct answer is painfully obvious for anyone with two braincells.
You claim to be big enough to admit an error yet you have not produced something even remotely close to an argument supporting your cause and you have not been able to prove my arguments wrong in any way. Just saying you can admit mistakes doesn't make it true. Stop lying to yourself.
Post by
117348
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
jefflovealex
Taking the side of the fella with the mastery and hit and exper. Simply because "If you miss you'll have the runes to go again" doesn't compare to a distinct possibility that you could miss 2 times in a row and then take a brutal amount of damage from a bosses heavy attack.
And stop asking to see the fellas character?, truth is he has a solid theory which he has clearly tested .
Post by
117348
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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