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10.2.7
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10.2.6
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Patch 4.2: Holy Paladin Roller Coaster!
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Post by
Flonnette
Let me put it this way: Many fights are kind of "highly deterministic". You can run them many times and notice pattern. So lets say a given fight takes me 20 Divine Lights, 18 Holy Lights and maximizing Holy Shocks and maximizing Light of Dawn/Word of Glory, next week when we see it again its going to take more or less 20 Divine Lights, 18 Holy Lights etc etc etc. The actual actions may change slightly where I may use a different cool down depending on a specific occurrence but it is generally the same performance each week. Even if gaining gear these numbers shift by a relatively small amount.
So basically Blizzard can increase the costs of my spells and I'll perform my role perfectly in that fight as long as I can still cast 20 Divine Lights, 18 Holy Lights, etc etc etc. Saying that changing mana costs ruins Holy Paladins belies the fact that the blue bar only has an indirect effect on HPS performance. We don't get bonus points or better loot for finishing a fight with 10% or 50% mana.
Post by
146856
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
pezz
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/175265/holy-paladin-healing-on-42-after-nerfs
issue by blue post. It clearly stated in raids Holy pally are using DL and beacon the tank and heal another tank and still have 40% mana in the end. Blizzard don't want pally to spam DL but yet when tanking healing we need to get the tank back to 100% hp after say taking a 40 to 50k hit. HL heals maybe 10 to 12k non crt so that means we have to spam HL 4 to 5 times to get the tank back up. Average let's say 8 to 10 secs to cast 5 HL. By that time the tank would have taken another massive hit. This is assuming you are not moving or doing anything else but using HL.
We have no choice but to use DL to keep the tank up. HL doesn't heal enough to keep the tank alive in raids. Is like asking a druid to tank heal with HoT's only. Not going to happen.
And assuming your tanks have zero avoidance, no one else is helping you heal them, and you just ignore holy power, you're right.
Edit: Are captchas turned off or something? I didn't have to put one in just then.
Post by
Flonnette
I don't think you understand what svirve and others are saying. Of course you use Divine Light on the tank because when they take a serious hit. Do you realize there are a lot of moments in many fights when tanks aren't taking "serious hits"? Do you realize the damage the tank take is less serious when you have multiple healers focused on one target?
Glancing over my raid reports, Divine Light is far and away the most potent heal I use during raids but they only count for 20-30 casts per fight. I am doing roughly as many Holy Shocks and Holy Lights not to mention highly variable Light of Dawn and Word of Glory.
I don't know what spongemike does in raid but 25% of the time is not exactly "spamming". Given the dynamics in game, there isn't enough "time" let alone mana to spam Divine Light.
ps. I just noticed that too pezz, I haven't been "captcha-ed" yet today.
Post by
146856
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
481692
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
pezz
So blizzard is saying holy pallys only cost DL in raids mostly and not carining about mana and are not using enough HL which is more mana efficent. To make it so pally are not using DL as much we are increasing the mana cast of all spells.
Let's examine that link rather than spamming it, shall we?
We increased paladin mana costs because they were too efficient at healing. In raid encounters, for instance, paladins were sitting at 40% of their mana while the other healers were flat out of mana. Paladins were casting Divine Light as their
main
heal because they didn’t need the efficiency of Holy Light.
Notice it says 'main' heal. It does not say 'only' heal. Those words are not synonyms and the blue poster did not use the word 'main' accidentally.
As a postscript, we see a lot of paladins advocating a strategy of Beacon the tank, heal the off-tank with Divine Light, and never ever do anything else... and if you ever heal the Beacon target, you fail. That’s just not a realistic goal.
And here is a Blizzard poster categorically saying that you can
not
just spam DL.
So you're saying 'omg we have to only use DL and HL won't work so we spam DL' then linking to a blue post which says that you're wrong as evidence that you're right. That's like saying a triangle has five sides and telling someone that you read it in Euclid's
Elements
.
Post by
481692
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
svirve
spongemike, buy yourself an English dictionary then read that post again.
Zarhym clearly states several things like:
Paladins are too efficient. Note how he does not say end-game paladins or heroic raid geared paladins.
He also uses raids as an example since it's the easiest example. He doesn't say that specifically in raids this only occurs.
They've also run tests and done research, this isn't something they did because Ensidia/Paragon said paladins were too easy.
The general consensus is that this is a well deserved nerf, no matter what gear level you're playing at. Despite what you feel mr. sponge.
Post by
146856
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
341987
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
481692
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
146856
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
481692
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
pezz
Did pulle hack an account or something?
Post by
Raleandris
Thanks for the links, did you bother to look at more than just the HPS on those?
I only glanced at a few, but EVERY pally I looked on there used DL and Beacon heals as their #1 and #2 heals. EXACTLY what blizzard doesn't want. You also can't track how much mana they had at the end of the fight on WoL. Which was the other basis of the nerf.
Also, again (why do I keep having to use this word here?)
Beacon of Light: The target becomes a Beacon of Light to all targets within a 60 yard radius. Each heal you cast on party or raid members except Holy Light on those targets will also heal the Beacon for 50% of the amount healed. Holy Light will heal for 100% of the amount. Only one target can be the Beacon of Light at a time. Lasts 5 min.
Just because DL is up there for healing done, doesn't mean that that is all they're using. DL does heal twice as much as HL after all. The point is, good holy paladins
aren't
just mashing their DL button to victory. Is it a very good strong heal? Yes, of course it is. Is our regen good? It's phenomenal, but it's nowhere near good enough to support DL spam.
If we look at the #1 ranked paladin on Magmaw, we see
this spell breakdown.
Notice how many DL were used? 17. How many HL?
23
. 17 Holy Shocks, A bunch of Light of Dawn. You get the picture.
So let's put this very clearly:
Paladins are in no way shape or form simply spamming DL. All of a paladin's spells are being used.
Edit: derped on the spell count, didn't include crits in there, but the trend is still there.
Post by
greywolfsage
This is really unfair for fresh ding holy pally or casual holy pally who doesn't raid (myself included). My gear level is about 353 and if the pug is smart, use CC, use CD, move out of avoidable damage and AoE I usually have over 80% mana on trash and about 50% mana left on boss. However, if ppl don't move out of avoidable damage, doesn't use CC or intercept then I am very likely to go OOM or very low on mana.
this is how its supposed to be.
In all likelihood this change is being released in tandem with Badge Gear nerf.
They have announced that all current valor points will be converted to Justice, and with that, I expect, like in WotLK, what is now Valor will cost Justice, so you can leapfrog up to current raid gear easily and start buying new content gear with the ezmode Valor point accumulation. I seriously don't think that this is going to effect you as much as you seem to think. As gear naturally progresses upwards, so does costs to keep encounters playing the same. As in challenging for you. Not WotLK ROFLSTOMPS.
Post by
Flonnette
Raleandris matches what I generally see for raid performance: 20-30 Divine Lights, variable use of Holy Lights usually at least 80% of DL if not more, a lot of Beacon reflecting depending on how heavy Light of Dawn and Word of Glory need to be used. I can't figure out what the controversy is at this point.
The links to the rankings also points out something interesting: The high end is dominated by Druids and Paladins in Blackwing Descent except Chimaeron while the high end is dominated by Druids and Priests in Bastion of Twilight. Setting aside that logs/reports always favor HOTs, this can be partially explained in that Bastion of Twilight feature fights that force rapid movement changes. That isn't to say that BWD doesn't have fights with a lot of movement or that BoT doesn't have places where you can plant your butt and blast heal away but that the amount of movement necessary in BoT seems greater. This also plays into how much mana we end up with in fights where fights that require a ton of movement means we couldn't Divine Light or Flash of Light as much as we want to anyway and regenerating mana all along the way.
Post by
etrin
This is just another example of buzzard planning or lack of.
They stated that paladins were the only ones ending a fight with mana.
Then they said you should end all fights with 0 mana.
YEA RIGHT
the only way to do it now is to either make everyone do 2x the amount of damage they do or get their head out and think of why its one type of player in this expansion that has to carry everyone.
do they care....I guess not
best idea would be to fire that GC idiot and spend some time and money on planning.
But that is the one thing they refuse to do, 5 minute nerfs are a lot cheaper
and they wonder why 1 million have quit...keep it up and they will be patching to a lot less.
Post by
Raleandris
This is just another example of buzzard planning or lack of.
They stated that paladins were the only ones ending a fight with mana.
Then they said you should end all fights with 0 mana.
YEA RIGHT
the only way to do it now is to either make everyone do 2x the amount of damage they do or get their head out and think of why its one type of player in this expansion that has to carry everyone.
do they care....I guess not
best idea would be to fire that GC idiot and spend some time and money on planning.
But that is the one thing they refuse to do, 5 minute nerfs are a lot cheaper
and they wonder why 1 million have quit...keep it up and they will be patching to a lot less.
I'm not sure what any of this post is supposed to mean.
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