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Varian's Madness
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Post by
4dehorde
Alright, let's just have a good, clean debate/ discussion...
King Varian Wyrnn, King of Stormwind, is a very troubled individual. His traumatic past has made him who he is today. While we have seen instances of his nobility, such as the kindness he showed elder Saurfang at Icecrown Citadel, Varian's darkside is ever-present. He openly voiced his desires for war and destruction of the Horde and its peoples at the Battle for the Undercity, and if anything what we have seen in the Southern Barrens shows us all he is making good on his words. The question is, does he truly think he is doing what is right, or is he just out for revenge? Maybe both? Does anything he has gone through merit the complete destruction of entire civilizations?
Post by
Monday
When he declared that the Horde should be exterminated, he had literally just seen one of his dearest friends killed at the hands of the Forsaken, from an organization that was part of the Horde. He had then proceeded into the Undercity and saw all the horrible things the Forsaken were doing. That's not putting the Horde's best foot forward.
Southern Barrens wasn't an extermination so much as a way to get a choke-hold on Kalimdor.
Post by
Patty
When he declared that the Horde should be exterminated, he had literally just seen one of his dearest friends killed at the hands of the Forsaken, from an organization that was part of the Horde. He had then proceeded into the Undercity and saw all the horrible things the Forsaken were doing. That's not putting the Horde's best foot forward.
Southern Barrens wasn't an extermination so much as a way to get a choke-hold on Kalimdor.
^ This. The attack at Taurajo is comparable to the siege of Astranaar, it's killing civilians but it's of military and strategic importance.
Post by
4dehorde
When he declared that the Horde should be exterminated, he had literally just seen one of his dearest friends killed at the hands of the Forsaken, from an organization that was part of the Horde. He had then proceeded into the Undercity and saw all the horrible things the Forsaken were doing. That's not putting the Horde's best foot forward.
Southern Barrens wasn't an extermination so much as a way to get a choke-hold on Kalimdor.
That does make sense, but it was made clear to him neither the Forsaken nor the rest of the Horde was responsible for the Wrathgate. It was traitors acting on their own accord. Personally, I think he used the Wrathgate as a excuse to declare war.
We should also take this into account. Daelin Proudmoore, the Alliance High Admiral, launched an Alliance invasion of Durotar soon after its founding. After the Horde fought back and killed him, Thrall chose to end the conflict, and not take it to Alliance homelands. Thrall chose not to punish the entire Alliance for the actions of Daelin and his cronies. Why can't Varian do that here? Why is he content to punish all the Horde for the misdeeds of Varimathras and Putress?
Post by
Skreeran
I think Varian believes that the Horde is inherently aggressive, and that as long as it is allowed to exist in its current state, Alliance citizens--humans and elves especially--will continue to die, even during what is supposed to be "peace."
The Horde's abhorrent slaughter of the elves in Ashenvale, skinning and dismembering them (yes,
we
know that it was actually the Twilight's Hammer, but Varian doesn't), plus the Horde's refusal to apologize for it (apology is taboo in Orcish culture, though Varian might not know this), tell Varian that the Horde is unrepentant in their killing, and will not stop unless he makes them stop.
I don't think he wants to annihilate the Orcish race. I think he's had times where he's wished that in the past (especially after hearing about Lothar's death), but if he was actually given that option, I think he's still reasonable enough to understand that killing Orcish civilians in cold blood would be wrong.
What Varian wants is not to annihilate the orcs, but to control them, to forcibly demilitarize them. He wants to dissolve "The Horde" as a political and military entity, and put the orcs under the control of more "civilized" people in the Alliance. Think of how the Axis Powers were handled following World War 2 (not Godwinning on this, I promise). The Allies did not just go and commit genocide on the Germans or Japanese because
they
committed genocide. Instead, they broke them up, dissolved their armies, and took away their power.
Like MacArthur was designated "Supreme Commander of the Allied Powers," and put in charge of the Occupation of Japan, I imagine Varian would place someone he trusts to manage the Occupation of Durotar and make sure that the orcs were not mistreated, but at the same time, were not given the power to rise up militarily either.
I play Horde, and I don't necessarily agree with Varian, but I don't think he is evil, either. I think the entire war is regrettable.
Post by
Monday
We should also take this into account. Daelin Proudmoore, the Alliance High Admiral, launched an Alliance invasion of Durotar soon after its founding. After the Horde fought back and killed him, Thrall chose to end the conflict, and not take it to Alliance homelands. Thrall chose not to punish the entire Alliance for the actions of Daelin and his cronies. Why can't Varian do that here? Why is he content to punish all the Horde for the misdeeds of Varimathras and Putress?
There's a difference though. When Daelin arrived, Jaina helped the orcs fight him off. There wasn't an orc that helped fight of Putress. When Varian got to the Undercity, he sated his vengeance with Putress, but there never was an orc that helped him.
Sure, Thrall and the Horde had removed Varimathras, but Varian probably didn't even know the dreadlord existed. All he cared about was the Apothecary.
Post by
Joemaster240
When he declared that the Horde should be exterminated, he had literally just seen one of his dearest friends killed at the hands of the Forsaken, from an organization that was part of the Horde. He had then proceeded into the Undercity and saw all the horrible things the Forsaken were doing. That's not putting the Horde's best foot forward.
Southern Barrens wasn't an extermination so much as a way to get a choke-hold on Kalimdor.
That does make sense, but it was made clear to him neither the Forsaken nor the rest of the Horde was responsible for the Wrathgate. It was traitors acting on their own accord. Personally, I think he used the Wrathgate as a excuse to declare war.
We should also take this into account. Daelin Proudmoore, the Alliance High Admiral, launched an Alliance invasion of Durotar soon after its founding. After the Horde fought back and killed him, Thrall chose to end the conflict, and not take it to Alliance homelands. Thrall chose not to punish the entire Alliance for the actions of Daelin and his cronies. Why can't Varian do that here? Why is he content to punish all the Horde for the misdeeds of Varimathras and Putress?
It's not just varimithras and putress fault that varian hates the horde....it's the fault of the orcs during the first war because they murdered his father and took his home from him and the fact that he was enslaved by an orc for a time probably didn't help much either.
Post by
Gone
Why can't Varian do that here? Why is he content to punish all the Horde for the misdeeds of Varimathras and Putress?
Because of what he saw in Undercity, they were making abominations and other undead out of human body parts, and were developing plagues to be used against the rest of Azeroth, as has been proven in recent events. This wasnt done under the orders of Putress and Varimathras.
The Forsaken may not be inheritantly evil, but most of them have gone down that path. And Sylvanas is completley insane as well.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
4dehorde
There's a difference though. When Daelin arrived, Jaina helped the orcs fight him off. There wasn't an orc that helped fight of Putress. When Varian got to the Undercity, he sated his vengeance with Putress, but there never was an orc that helped him.
Sure, Thrall and the Horde had removed Varimathras, but Varian probably didn't even know the dreadlord existed. All he cared about was the Apothecary.
Its a tricky situation. Thrall, Sylvanas, and the others were going to go after Putress, but Varian got to the traitor first. It makes me wonder what would have happened if both sides had converged on the Apothecarium at once.
What Varian wants is not to annihilate the orcs, but to control them, to forcibly demilitarize them. He wants to dissolve "The Horde" as a political and military entity, and put the orcs under the control of more "civilized" people in the Alliance. Think of how the Axis Powers were handled following World War 2 (not Godwinning on this, I promise). The Allies did not just go and commit genocide on the Germans or Japanese because they committed genocide. Instead, they broke them up, dissolved their armies, and took away their power.
I really don't think that is going to happen. I see where your coming from, and maybe that is what Varian wants, but is doesn't seem realistic to me. The current Horde is stronger and more united than any of the previous ones. Even if Varian did win the war (which seems unlikely as both sides on on equal footing atm) I doubt any orc, forsaken, or other Horde race would lay down their arms and submit to him. I really think it is going to be a fight to the death, this war.
Another thing that contributed to the war was Varian's lack of understanding when it came to the Horde, and vice-versa. Most wars represent a failure to listen or understand.
Post by
Skreeran
Another thing that contributed to the war was Varian's lack of understanding when it came to the Horde, and vice-versa. Most wars represent a failure to listen or understand.This is definitely true.
Post by
Gone
I really don't think that is going to happen. I see where your coming from, and maybe that is what Varian wants, but is doesn't seem realistic to me. The current Horde is stronger and more united than any of the previous ones. Even if Varian did win the war (which seems unlikely as both sides on on equal footing atm) I doubt any orc, forsaken, or other Horde race would lay down their arms and submit to him. I really think it is going to be a fight to the death, this war.
Actualy the Horde are pretty divided right now, Voljin already moved his people out of Ogrimar and came very close to leaving the Horde because he fealt Garrosh was becoming too much of a warmonger. Cairne was killed by Garrosh. Sylvanas dosnt trust Garrosh right now, and NOBODY trusts Sylvanas. If the Alliance did win the war I could see the Goblins and Blood Elfs assimilating pretty easily, Trolls and Tauren would take some getting used to but they would accept it as well eventualy, its only really the Orcs that I think would fight to the death.
Post by
Monday
I doubt the trolls would roll over and die.
Post by
Gone
I doubt the trolls would roll over and die.
Yes but I dont hink he would let his people die out of Horde pride either, especialy how at odds he is with Garrosh right now
Post by
292559
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
4dehorde
Actualy the Horde are pretty divided right now, Voljin already moved his people out of Ogrimar and came very close to leaving the Horde because he fealt Garrosh was becoming too much of a warmonger. Cairne was killed by Garrosh. Sylvanas dosnt trust Garrosh right now, and NOBODY trusts Sylvanas. If the Alliance did win the war I could see the Goblins and Blood Elfs assimilating pretty easily, Trolls and Tauren would take some getting used to but they would accept it as well eventualy, its only really the Orcs that I think would fight to the death.
True, but there are several factors. Thrall convinced Vol'jin to keep the Darkspears in the Horde and explained why he chose Garrosh as warchief. Cairne was in fact killed by Magatha, she poisioned Garrosh's weapon without him knowing. In the aftermath, Garrosh expelled the Grimtotem from the Horde and helped Baine retake Thunderbluff from the traitors. And, based on dialogue from Lady Cozwyn, Sylvanas is at least trying to mend ties with Garrosh and the orcs. United, they are strong indeed. Even Garrosh knows the Horde would lose much if the Forsaken were to be expelled. The Forsaken hold most of Lordaeron and have a massive military at their disposal.
Post by
Monday
Cairne was in fact killed by Magatha, she poisioned Garrosh's weapon without him knowing.
Conspiracy theorists could say that Garrosh is merely saying that to divert any blame, and that he really was working with Magatha.
Garrosh expelled the Grimtotem
This could be explained as clearing his tracks.
Note: I do not believe this, but some might.
Post by
kemppy
It's not just varimithras and putress fault that varian hates the horde....it's the fault of the orcs during the first war because they murdered his father and took his home from him and the fact that he was enslaved by an orc for a time probably didn't help much either.
actually it wasnt the orcs as a race that killed his father in front of him, but a halfling controlled by none other than the shadow council, which at the time was soon to be destroyed and they knew it
now i dont think varian is all the bad, yes i know he is a hot head, and willing to jump into battle, but as seen in ICC he knows were honor must be given, he never liked thrall but he showed him respect, garosh is a bit different, as at the time he was a hot head, and now he is much diferent, thanks to one orc from notherend and his hate of pork
the thing that must be said is that there is still i thin line of peace, yes there are fronts here and there, but all in all, or how i see it, they are willing to tolerate each other, for the greater good
now i will also bring to light that yes there may have been atrocities from both sides, but every time they have been delt with and either removed, or ended
now i would also like to bring to light that the war in notherend for varian was much different to that of the horde, the horde were there, in vast, due to the fact they had attacks their city's (well forsaken were out for revenge for creating them) but the alliance were out for arthas's frozen blood, he had killed the leader of their countrymen, and had all but destroyed the alliance, dwarfs and human's and gnomes had ties to lorderon, and arthas walked in and ended their friends. they were after a kill and they didnt want anything in there way.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monday
actually it wasnt the orcs as a race that killed his father in front of him, but a halfling controlled by none other than the shadow council, which at the time was soon to be destroyed and they knew it
Half orc controlled by the Shadow Council, who were orcs. /shrug
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