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Christianity - The Horse that Refuses to Die
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Post by
Thror
Faith is blind, the point of faith is to be blind.
Like my sig says
Faith... Must be enforced by reason...When faith becomes blind it dies.
I know that statement well. It is a conclusion pulled out of thin air, respected mostly because it is Gandhi who said it. Unless Gandhi was using the words "Reason" and "Faith" loosely and they have some specific meaning, it is simply an incorrect conclusion.
Post by
Gone
Faith is blind, the point of faith is to be blind.
Like my sig says
Faith... Must be enforced by reason...When faith becomes blind it dies.
I
think
the very root of the problem is human beings creating higher forces to cover there own shortcomings
Your assuming that you are right about the way the universe works
as are you.
My way at least is self containing, consistant, proveable and adaptive. The same can not be said by following all the teachings of the Bible
and since Im on a quoting buzz, here is another one I quite like
Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to.
If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent.
If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked.
If he is unable to do either, then why call him 'God'?
First off, Im not assuming im right (at least for the purpose of this forum) read back on my comments, I never used any absolutes.
Second, no you cannot prove your side any more than I can. Yes theres no proof that there is a God, but nor is there any proof that there isnt. Like Frost said, people aint retarded, if there was any "proof" one way or another, there wouldnt be much of a debate, there would only be the majority, and then the fringe lunaticks.
And as for that quote, like I said earlier thats logic by human standards, if there is a God then im sure there are things about his logic human beings wouldnt be able to understand. Imma put this in a very logical way that im sure you can relate to, humans at the end of the day are just animals like any other, we just happen to have thumbs and a higher level of intelligence than other species, we may think were the masters of the universe, but im sure flys think that too.
Anyway like I said in the begining im really not a fan of debates like this because they go on FOREVER, and really who cares. I am not somone who trys to prove my beleifs to random people I dont know, and frankly you shouldnt be either, nobody likes it when a christian or atheist gets overly preachy to people they dont even know.
EDIT: Honestly I REALLY dont wanna debate this, so lets just agree to disagree and not argue in circles lol
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Gone
to me thats the worst outcome in any debate. I would rather come away either having learned something new or have taught something new (cant force you to argue tho :-p)
Honestly if it were about anything els I would agree with you. But religion is always a touchy issue, and frankley I used to argue about this with people online all the time, to the point where I just avoid the subject now. I respect your beleifs, and I can only hope that my conduct is such that at the end of the day you respect mine as well.
Post by
Adamsm
#$%^ happens and screws up the world because God gave us Free Will; we are free to make whatever choice we want to make, whether it takes us down an evil path or a good one. After all, God probably has his own things to do instead of watching every single human every single day.
As for the idea that Satan started sin; probably not, since when he was Lucifer he was testing Job and God knew about that and told him time and time again that Job would never renounce God even as massive piles of #$%^ kept dropping on the poor guy.
But do we really need another religious thread?
Post by
Skreeran
At least Unitology isn't the biggest religion in the world? :D
And I'd be interested in contributing to this discussion, but I got some other posts to make before I can start reading up on this thread.
Post by
OverZealous
I dont really like getting into debates about religion online because this is the internet because it tends to get ugly, so Im not really going to take part in some big debate, but I will say just this.
A lot of your arguments seem to revolve around "If God is real why does he allow this, or why didnt he see this comming'. If there is a God then he is a being of a much higher intelligence than a human being, so trying to understand why such a being does or does not do the things he does, is like an ant trying to understand how the human brain works, its just not possible.
So God has a reason that we don't understand for inventing suffering, starvation, and the needless slaughter of the innocent? I'm honestly not trying to sound so extreme here, or trying turn this conversation "ugly", but doesn't that just seem like a cop-out?
With that reasoning, any question can be answered with "well, we are too inferior to understand".
This is a prime example of circular reasoning.
From what I understand, he created some of those to punish the unbelievers and sinners. Why he created unbelievers and sinners in the first place, I do not know.
For an unbeliever, many things in the Bible really does not add up, and total lack of logic is not something I feel inclined to believe in.
Does anyone care to enlighten me as to why God created Sin?
Edit: I'll have to say though, Christianity provides direction and guidance to over a billion believers around the world, there must be something it's doing right, or the "Horse" would have been left behind long ago.
Post by
Adamsm
Does anyone care to enlighten me as to why God created Sin?Because without it the world would be full of sheep with no souls?
Post by
xaratherus
Edit: I'll have to say though, Christianity provides direction and guidance to over a billion believers around the world, there must be something it's doing right, or the "Horse" would have been left behind long ago.
The same is true of Hinduism, Islam, and a handful of other religions too.
My presumption (and I know this will annoy some people)? People have an inherent fear of the unknown; religion attempts to fill in those gaps; because of that inherent fear of the unknown, most people would prefer an unproven, assumptive answer (even one that appears to contradict portions of reality) rather than admit that they just don't know enough.
So in my eyes, it's not so much that any religion is necessarily doing something right so much as it is that religions persist because of a lack of understanding of a vast universe.
Does anyone care to enlighten me as to why God created Sin?Because without it the world would be full of sheep with no souls?
The concept of an omniscient deity already ensures that we can never be anything but 'sheep'.
Free will and omniscience are mutually exclusive. If I can make a choice of which a deity did not have foreknowledge, that deity is not omniscient, because it lacks that knowledge; if that deity has foreknowledge of every choice I make, I do not have truly free will because all of my choices are predetermined.
Even if we presume that omniscience means that the deity has full knowledge of every possible choice and every possible result, then free will is still an illusion, because that also presumes that the deity not only knows what will happen should we choose A instead of B, but also that we
will
choose A instead of B (or, if not, then the being is not truly omniscient, because again, it lacks that knowledge).
Post by
Skreeran
I find the concept of free will amusing.
How can one believe in a god who knows the future, and also free will?
If God knows the future, the future is predetermined. If the future is predetermined, we don't actually have a choice in what we do. Hence, no free will.
If God doesn't know the future, then how can he reveal the prophecies of the "End Times" and things like that?
And that's not even going into the issue of
God's
free will. If God always selects the optimal, most perfect option in any given situation, then does he really have a choice?
Post by
Lombax
Weeeeee another religious debate!
Post by
ExDementia
Like I said I dont feel like debating, Ive said my peice and the arguments you made in responce could also be called "circular reasoning". A lot of the problems you mentioned are caused by human beings not higher forces.
I don't think you understand what
circular reasoning
is.
Do you? I mean you accuse me of using circular logic, then link the wiki article... that dosnt explain how I was using circular logic lol.
You accuse me of using circular logic by my argument that if there is a God human beings would not be able to understand the way he works. I said yoy were using circular logic because you came back at me with the exact same argument you used the first time around. these are both circular logic because we can go back and foreth like that forever without reaching any answer, and it dosnt make either of them less valid.
I don't think you really read the article then, :P
You were using circular reasoning like this:
"We are not intelligent enough to understand god's ways. The fact that he is so much more intelligent than us proves this."
This makes your argument fallacious because it relies upon your own proposition, "We're too dumb to understand god", in order to support your main basis for argument. Essentially, you assume that your central point is already proven, and then you use this to support your continued argument.
Here is another example:
Why are there bad things?
"Because it is god's will."
But why did he put them there?
"Because god's will, be done."
But why have these things in the first place? What's the point?
"Because god works in mysterious ways, he has a plan for us."
Where does that leave any room for discussion? It's a bit of a cop out if you ask me. When there is no fact to combat an argument, pulling things out of thin air becomes like the only way to defend your blind faith.
Post by
OverZealous
Edit: I'll have to say though, Christianity provides direction and guidance to over a billion believers around the world, there must be something it's doing right, or the "Horse" would have been left behind long ago.
The same is true of Hinduism, Islam, and a handful of other religions too
.
My presumption (and I know this will annoy some people)? People have an inherent fear of the unknown; religion attempts to fill in those gaps; because of that inherent fear of the unknown, most people would prefer an unproven, assumptive answer (even one that appears to contradict portions of reality) rather than admit that they just don't know enough.
So in my eyes, it's not so much that any religion is necessarily doing something right so much as it is that religions persist because of a lack of understanding of a vast universe.
Of course, I never ment to say that Islam and Hinduism (the list goes on...) doesn't, I used Christianity as an example since it's the largest religion, and the target of this discussion.
Anyway, I'll have to say your post basicly touches on most of my feelings on the subject, people are definetly scared of the unknown, and the belief that a God in the heavens is watching over you, with his part-human(I think?) son on his side is something I can definetly understand calms people down.
And no, your post makes excellent points, I don't know about others, but excellent points don't annoy me.
Post by
238331
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monday
Why do people feel the need to do this?
Can we not just realize that other people are different and move along?
Post by
606231
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
238331
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monday
Also, some people are just wrong.
Expound.
Post by
xaratherus
Why do people feel the need to do this?
Can we not just realize that other people are different and move along?
From a 'high-minded' standpoint: Because we have to live in the world with those other people - and in frequent ways (both major and minor), we are affected by the other person's beliefs (or lack thereof) on a regular basis (some of us more than others). In other words, we have freedom of religion (at least in the United States), but never freedom
from
it.
From a lower perspective: People love to voice their opinion.
Post by
238331
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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